"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery"

Winds are 180 @ 20G30,

Would you like Rwy 12, 60 degree right cross,
Or Rwy 25, 70 degree left cross,

Your choice.
 
Most of the landing accidents at the local airport are with transients that cannot handle the afternoon desert summer winds that kick up.
 
I'm afraid I'd have given him a blank look and said, "Ummm... what do you mean?" I'd almost bet he would be unable to tell you what it means. A lot of people seem to just spout dumb stuff they heard from someone else. Even if the guy did have an explanation, I'd be shocked if he was able to make a valid argument in opposition to practicing crosswind landings. But what do I know? :dunno: I'm still on the low side of a hundred hours.
 
With these kinds, a simple sentence is often all they will hear, so a catchy phrase is ideal, when trying to get the point across.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
With these kinds, a simple sentence is often all they will hear, so a catchy phrase is ideal, when trying to get the point across.
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I don't know if this helps in this particular case, but I just heard a catch phrase the other day by some guitar guru referring to the young ones wanting to go straight to the big leagues:

"You have to write 'Please Please Me' before you can write 'I am the Walrus'."
 
I had a close-call in a crosswind once, but it made me a better pilot afterward. Initially, I would be scared to fly in them, but then I just told myself to make the plane do what I want it to do, and so I do that.

Once I was set free and no longer a student, I would be a little timid of crosswinds still. However, I get more and more adventurous and I just tell myself to put in the right controls and everything will be good. I am gradually increasing my confidence and upping the ante every time I fly.

Dan Thomas said:
So true. We see "pilots" who want to let the GPS do all the navigating. They want a trike that will land itself; taildraggers are just too dangerous. They want single-lever FADEC that looks after all the engine stuff. They want stall- and spin-proof airplanes. They want an airplane that can land in a crab.

Too few want to work at actually accomplishing anything anymore. The culture of automation has turned us into spectators instead of masters.

Dan
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Man, let the GPS do all the navigating? No way! I wanna do it! I wanna look at stuff outside and track a VOR!

Taildraggers are fun and landing/takeoff is like 90% of the fun of flying for me.

And I like adjusting the mixture control and analyzing the EGT to ensure proper leaning!




I think I'm the last of a dying breed.
 
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Mason said:
If you can't fly the airplane to it's demonstrated limit, you are a passenger, not a pilot.
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If you can't fly the airplane to over the demonstrated limit you are a passenger. The FAA only requires the manufacturer to demonstrate the FAA mandated X wind component for certification. If you fly a lot of different airplanes you will notice that the max demonstrated X wind in most is around 15kts. Most GA airplanes can handle a 25-30kt X wind component but most pilots cannot. I would bet that less than 5% of the pilot population routinely practice X wind landings in over 15kt winds. Practice is the only way to make you safe. Don
 
I honestly have no idea what that statement means. Crosswind landings in a nosewheel airplane is no big deal.
 
I'm inclined to agree with the blank look, head shake and walk off response. If something has to be said, maybe:

"If you rent here, you demonstrate cross wind ability first"

"I'm looking forward to our next flight review"

"The debris always stops on the downwind side"

"Skid marks going forward mean you're on the brakes, skid marks going sideways mean you can't handle crosswinds"

"The 'falling leaf' maneuver is supposed to be demonstrated while airborne, not skipping sideways"

"Some people like to fly in more than a 5 knot wind"
 
I dunno. In my experience, a pithy remark might feel good, but will have absolutely no effect on the dense.

You're dealing with the "invulnerability" hazardous attitude. Until HE realizes he's not invulnerable, it will still be there. A witty remark won't do that. If he's that stupid, he needs the winds to be worse than forecasted.

The best you can do, IMO, is to point out what a problem that is to your student. If he rents at your FBO, you can bring the staff up to date about that attitude.
 
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that there's a kernel of truth in the statement. Now as a blanket statement it's ridiculous since landing in a strong crosswind requires skill that can only be acquired through practice and perseverance, as everyone has said. But I also assume that everyone would also agree that strong, gusty crosswinds can be dangerous to even the most skilled pilot. I don't believe there is a quantifiable cutoff, but beyond some point gusty crosswinds become so unpredictable that achieving a safe landing is only partly a matter of skill. If I was landing with a 25G35kt direct crosswind, and managed to get it down safely, I certainly wouldn't take off again to practice my crosswind technique. As far as I'm concerned, winds of that strength aren't for practicing, they're for dealing with as needed and getting the plane safely into a hangar. Others may have a different threshold for "not going up in that".

Whether I'd give that pilot a funny look or not would depend on context. If he just didn't believe in practicing crosswind landings as most people here seem to have taken it, then yes I agree it's a moronic statement. But if he meant that when the wind is doing crazy things, it's taking an unjustified risk to go up in it for practice, then I don't think it's all that stupid.

Just MHO.
 
azure said:
Whether I'd give that pilot a funny look or not would depend on context. If he just didn't believe in practicing crosswind landings as most people here seem to have taken it, then yes I agree it's a moronic statement. But if he meant that when the wind is doing crazy things, it's taking an unjustified risk to go up in it for practice, then I don't think it's all that stupid.

Just MHO.
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I assumed that he, and every pilot, could be expected to fly to PTS standards at any time or with modest refresher training. Maybe that's an unwarranted assumption.
 
Perhaps the unwarranted assumption is that he, or anyone else in this thread, disagrees with that expectation. I just took the statement a little differently and assumed (though granted that assumption could also be unwarranted) that he was not talking about just ANY crosswind, but only about wind conditions that pose a significant hazard.
 
Perhaps part of crosswind training should be a discussion of "How do you tell when the crosswind is more than you can handle, requiring diversion to a different airport or runway?"
 
jnmeade said:
I assumed that he, and every pilot, could be expected to fly to PTS standards at any time or with modest refresher training. Maybe that's an unwarranted assumption.
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PTS standards are minimum standards. I would hope most of you with a little time under your belts could fly much better than PTS. Don
 
In rereading this thread, I think it comes down to personal minimum(though I know in past threads some do not believe that they should exist). Some of us mortals have personal minimums however. For me it is this way. We can all agree that as a group general aviation pilots have different levels of skills. Some of us are above average, some below average, and for the rest of us(the majority) we are average. Some of this is dependent on hours, some of it on age, some of it on "currency", and some of it on raw skill. If we look at crosswind landings, some of us very comfortable and skilled enough doing a 30G55 kt direct crosswind landing, at night, in a snowstorm, with IMC at minimums, at an unfamiliar airport, while doing the latest NYT crossworld puzzle to make it slightly challenging. :yikes: Then on the other end of the spectrum is those of us who have problems landing smoothly at our home airport on a calm day in a trainer. :eek: Most of us are somewhere between the two extremes. What is important is knowing where you skill level is, and flying within that skill level. It is far easier to make the decision to fly than it is to make the decision not to fly. Unfortunately, the easy decision is more likely to end up badly than the hard decision. This guy, just has a lower threshhold in making the harder decision that most of us. Whether or not it is warrented, or appropriate is not for me to decide.
 
This guy made the comment to someone else who had just returned from crosswind practce. He apparently wasn't content with setting minimums for himself.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
"Practicing crosswind landings today is like practicing bleeding before surgery."

This was the astute and authoritative comment offered to us by a VFR pilot with a few hundred hours, as a primary flight student and I returned from a routine series of touch & goes in gusty, direct crosswinds in the mid 20 knot range, which was a good margin from the demonstrated envelope edge of our aircraft's crosswind capabilities.

What constructive comment might be offered in reply to him, structured as a witticism that he may be likely to remember?
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I am going to give the guy the benefit and add context based on the OP's description of the day. The day was definitely above many pilot's personal limits, and indeed, capabilities. Practicing above one's capabilities should be done with due consideration for the risk/reward.

Personally, I am sure that the OP's capabilities are such that there is little real risk. Worst case is that you see that you do not have enough rudder to line up and negate the side-loading and so you break off and go somewhere else. And the student learns something about the crosswind limits of the airplane.

That is why you train with a competent CFI. For the commenter, yes, it would have been a bad idea to go out alone and try that.

What response? IDK, "and failing to practice at all is letting the janitor perform the surgery. Which is worse?"
 
alfadog said:
What response? IDK, "and failing to practice at all is letting the janitor perform the surgery. Which is worse?"
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Be careful some of those janitors were star surgeons in their home country when they emigrated to the US and could not pass the medical boards or get sponsors. I have personally known three guys this has happened to
 
Palmpilot said:
This guy made the comment to someone else who had just returned from crosswind practce. He apparently wasn't content with setting minimums for himself.
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You are right and this is why my minimums are my minimums and not yours, and I will never push my minimums on you. But then again some people are not content with people doing their own thing.
 
Palmpilot said:
Perhaps part of crosswind training should be a discussion of "How do you tell when the crosswind is more than you can handle, requiring diversion to a different airport or runway?"
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"When full aileron and/or rudder deflection isn't enough to get you onto the runway" is what I was taught. I never did figure out whether he was serious when he told me that, but I've never run out of aileron or rudder. Yet.

I'm not a big fan of crosswind landings, which is why I hope for a brisk crosswind every time I fly. Got to keep doing it until it's just not a factor any more.
 
DaleB said:
"When full aileron and/or rudder deflection isn't enough to get you onto the runway" is what I was taught. I never did figure out whether he was serious when he told me that, but I've never run out of aileron or rudder. Yet.

I'm not a big fan of crosswind landings, which is why I hope for a brisk crosswind every time I fly. Got to keep doing it until it's just not a factor any more.
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I think I have about been there in a 172 as regards rudder. It does not get very windy in Miami unless it is getting VERY windy so we do not get a lot of practice above 25 kt or so and even that is rare. That is also where landing a bit fast comes in. More air over the rudder until the wheels are down and then they add a lot of xwind resistance.
 
I was on vacation in Hawaii recently, and got a flight with an instructor. At dillingham field (which has its own fun issues) I had a crosswind sufficient to run out of rudder on a 172. Certainly a new experience. I almost didn't know what to think. I kept saying "I'm out of rudder!" The instructor just ignored me :). The landing was uneventful. I did do that little trick that nose draggers are known to do: relaxing control pressure once I touched the ground. :)
 
Once upon a time, I was young and cocky and thought I could land my Luscombe in just about any wind conditions. It is a very responsive, forgiving taildragger.

Then one day, I took my Lester for a local flight. The winds were forecast to increase during the day, but instead of gradually increasing, the change came in with a roar. My husband radioed that he thought I should come on in.

Our airport is positioned between two ridges, and based on the direction of the wind can have some interesting wind patterns.

My first pattern had a lot of wind correction, but it was still smooth. Unfortunately, on final the bottom fell out. Stick forward, throttle to the firewall and go around.

My next pattern was rough as a cob, but I had enough rudder to remain aligned with the runway. After I passed the Kroger grocery store, something hit my airplane. I saw the earth from my cockpit as I had never seen it before. My gut clinched as I felt my airspeed diminish. I was close to a stall.

By now, I didn't care if I groundlooped. I wanted down. Now. My husband was standing beside the runway waiting to pull me from the crash. In those seconds, I told The Lord that if he let me get down, I would never be so cocky again.

I kept flying the airplane and fortunately the landing was anticlimactic. After nearly being turned upside down on final, landing in a crosswind was a nonevent.

Lessons learned: Confidence is good. Cocky will get you killed. I should have landed elsewhere. The wind later calmed, and I could have come home.

A smooth crosswind is a nonissue. Turbulence and windshear suck.

As a woman of some maturity, I don't have to prove my mettle any more. I accept my limitations, the limitations of my airplane and characteristics of the airport where I am based.

Deb
 
Anyone afraid of crosswind landings is missing some of the best flying there is.

I take pride in being able to safely fly an airplane on days when the airport rats are afraid to leave the coffee pot. Within the past two weeks I have done it 8 times in four different planes.

Nothing quite like landing on the numbers, zero (or minimal, I did run out of rudder once) drift on centerline then coming in and being told "I can't believe to just flew in that"
 
azure said:
Perhaps the unwarranted assumption is that he, or anyone else in this thread, disagrees with that expectation. I just took the statement a little differently and assumed (though granted that assumption could also be unwarranted) that he was not talking about just ANY crosswind, but only about wind conditions that pose a significant hazard.
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If he has a competent CFI aboard, then it's good rejected landing practice.

It has a kernel of truth, but if unopposed but practice, the envelope keeps getting smaller and smaller until there is either (1) a danger, or (2) total loss of utility.
 
If you do not focus on developing cross wind skills in Kansas you will get more wind days cancellations than IFR weather and Freezing precip cancellations added together.

You might as well be a sport pilot.
 
Haha did tons of crosswind landings and take off today lucky was only 5 knot wind at KPAO. Tricky and had to slip on rudder to land right.
 
N1347B said:
A smooth crosswind is a nonissue. Turbulence and windshear suck.
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Great story! Please allow me to quote these two sentences -- this is why I disagree with those who say that the only important limit is rudder authority. I contend that the real issue is that it takes time to react to sudden changes in wind direction or strength, and even more time for the airplane's momentum to be affected by your changed control inputs to the degree required. In turbulent conditions it's very possible to be completely overwhelmed by rapidly changing winds, even if the wind strength wouldn't be beyond one's abilities if it were steady.
 
douglas393 said:
In rereading this thread, I think it comes down to personal minimum(though I know in past threads some do not believe that they should exist). Some of us mortals have personal minimums however. For me it is this way. We can all agree that as a group general aviation pilots have different levels of skills. Some of us are above average, some below average, and for the rest of us(the majority) we are average. Some of this is dependent on hours, some of it on age, some of it on "currency", and some of it on raw skill. If we look at crosswind landings, some of us very comfortable and skilled enough doing a 30G55 kt direct crosswind landing, at night, in a snowstorm, with IMC at minimums, at an unfamiliar airport, while doing the latest NYT crossworld puzzle to make it slightly challenging. :yikes: Then on the other end of the spectrum is those of us who have problems landing smoothly at our home airport on a calm day in a trainer. :eek: Most of us are somewhere between the two extremes. What is important is knowing where you skill level is, and flying within that skill level. It is far easier to make the decision to fly than it is to make the decision not to fly. Unfortunately, the easy decision is more likely to end up badly than the hard decision. This guy, just has a lower threshhold in making the harder decision that most of us. Whether or not it is warrented, or appropriate is not for me to decide.
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For the record, I require all crossword puzzles be stowed inside the FAF.
 
Just remember this bit of wisdom, as it applies to every aspect of human endeavor:

Not everyone finishes in the top 10% of their class. Trying to ascertain exactly where they finished before you take their advice can save a lot of grief and money.

Glenn
 
Palmpilot said:
Perhaps part of crosswind training should be a discussion of "How do you tell when the crosswind is more than you can handle, requiring diversion to a different airport or runway?"
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. It's an excellent thing to practice with a good CFI when it's blowing dogs off chains...fly over the center line at 3 feet, align the the airplane with the rudder, and lower the upwind wing just enough to eliminate the drift,... but don't land. If and when you can fly down most of the runway with the airplane aligned, chances are pretty good you'll be safe to land. But more importantly - if you can't, either your skill-set is undeveloped (can be fixed with training and practice) or it's too darned windy, so go around and find a more appropriate runway.
 
skynewbie said:
Haha did tons of crosswind landings and take off today lucky was only 5 knot wind at KPAO. Tricky and had to slip on rudder to land right.
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Last Sunday at KGTU I started out with a 7-8 knot xwind at about 11 a.m. but by 12:30 after about 10 t&g's I got blasted with a 25 knot that really gave me a run for the money. Runway 18 with wind coming out from 140, so it wasn't directly crosswind, but that gust.. woowee.. Flying over the trees I hit the air that sucks me down then that breeze shot me right back up and made that traumahawk live up to its name.

but I was VERY happy to have an instructor with me and happy to be learning in conditions that are fairly common with these central / west texas winds.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I couldn't agree more. It's an excellent thing to practice with a good CFI when it's blowing dogs off chains...fly over the center line at 3 feet, align the the airplane with the rudder, and lower the upwind wing just enough to eliminate the drift,... but don't land. If and when you can fly down most of the runway with the airplane aligned, chances are pretty good you'll be safe to land. But more importantly - if you can't, either your skill-set is undeveloped (can be fixed with training and practice) or it's too darned windy, so go around and find a more appropriate runway.
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Wouldn't it be possible (and preferable) to make that judgement no later than short final?
 
I would tell him:

"NOT practicing cross wind landings is like buying lotto tickets for a drawing with no prizes"
 
azure said:
Whether I'd give that pilot a funny look or not would depend on context. If he just didn't believe in practicing crosswind landings as most people here seem to have taken it, then yes I agree it's a moronic statement. But if he meant that when the wind is doing crazy things, it's taking an unjustified risk to go up in it for practice, then I don't think it's all that stupid.

Just MHO.
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Agree. I live at an airport that is notoriously windy practically all the time but the wind is almost always aligned with one of the two runways. So it's a popular place for students to practice crosswind landings but those of us who live here know that there are times when such practice is folly. Not long ago I watched as a guy did crosswind touch and goes in a nice Cessna 195 in conditions that had us shaking our heads. After a couple of squirrelly ones he smashed it up pretty good.

Another time there were TWO Cessna 172's from the same flight school that busted the nose gears clean off on the same day. Needless to say, they haven't been bringing any students over here since.
 
Silvaire said:
Agree. I live at an airport that is notoriously windy practically all the time but the wind is almost always aligned with one of the two runways. So it's a popular place for students to practice crosswind landings but those of us who live here know that there are times when such practice is folly. Not long ago I watched as a guy did crosswind touch and goes in a nice Cessna 195 in conditions that had us shaking our heads. After a couple of squirrelly ones he smashed it up pretty good.

Another time there were TWO Cessna 172's from the same flight school that busted the nose gears clean off on the same day. Needless to say, they haven't been bringing any students over here since.
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What kind of crosswinds are we talking about in those instances?
 
For the 195 I remember it was something like 210@25G32 and he was using runway 30. For the 172's I wasn't there but I think it was more of a windshear condition rather than absolute crosswind that caused those two incidents.
 
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