Practice ILS - need advice G430W

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PeterDe

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Peter D
On the ground I entered into Flight Plan two airports. The first one I activated ILS approach abd flew it, then continued to the second airport. With approval of ATC got to do ILS, when I tried to activate it by going to procedure it did not offer the second airport. Why is that?
Then I tried to load direct and that worked but the activated ILS did not switch automatically to the ILS frequency even as I toggled between CDI and GPS. I did not have the time to brief and manually enter the frequency, but if I did would that have worked?
 
Would need more detail of step by step. There's no reason why an approach properly loaded and the localizer frequency in active would not work. One possible gotcha is that it doesn't auto-switch if there is a "live" VOR in active, but that may not be it. (Although it caught simeind recently in a checkride.)

the only reason I can think of offhand why it would not offer the second airport is that the approach to the first was still active. But again, unless I see the process, it's just a possibility.

FWIW, I don't rely on auto-switching. I place the localizer in active and ensure it's identified before the autoswitch cinditiins take place.
 
Thank you for insightful comments - that’s probably what happened, did not auto switch as I did not inactivate the first leg. What are the best methods to do that?

The two airports are so close that there was no time to check everything as a solo pilot. What puzzles me (through the haze of trying to recall the events) is that I went for direct, activated an ILS approach (note: the first one was ILS as well, so the CDI should have been in Loc mode) and by the time I was looking for the glideslope to come in (which never happened) in while getting “established “ per ATC final instructions, it took me a while to realize that nothing was happening. Only then did I see that that G430 was displaying LNAV, but nothing happened after I toggled to CDI. In the end I did not have the time to check the frequencies and had to set up for landing and talk to tower. Then I gave up, and did a regular visual landing. Luckily , it was a clear and beautiful day - probably the story to tell would be much different in IMC.
Thanks again and please comment on the sequence of events and anomalies/mistakes you spot.
 
Can't really comment too much without seeing the actual flow of button-pushing - I've flown several times with owners on a simple "hey I did this and I don't think it worked right, can we go up tomorrow and try to recreate it?" type of flights, and it seems that the answer is ALWAYS that they didn't actually do the sequence of buttons that they think they did.
PeterDe said:
The two airports are so close that there was no time to check everything as a solo pilot.
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Then this is a great example of "don't force yourself to rush, ask ATC for delay vectors if you need them to get set up". Especially as a solo pilot, you need to make extra sure you have enough time to check everything - or you end up forgetting something like the landing gear.
 
Thank you. Indeed that’s what I should have done. Has not occurred to me.
 
PeterDe said:
Only then did I see that that G430 was displaying LNAV, but nothing happened after I toggled to CDI. In the end I did not have the time to check the frequencies and had to set up for landing and talk to tower
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During a VLOC approach, your GPS will annunciate LNAV even when the CDI is displaying the VOR or localizer. The annunciation is keeping you informed of what the GPS is using to track your progress. Using the photo as a reference (it's not showing what you would see) during a VLOC approach the yellow would show VLOC, but the red would show LNAV.

You always...ALWAYS...need to check those frequencies - correct, active, and identified.

@RussR and I are of a single mind about not rushing. Training annd practice tend to be compressed but absent an emergency of some kind, real IFR is slow with plenty of time. Delay vectors are great. Using time in a hold to set up the next approach is also a good strategy. Simply slowing down can help too (especially in a fast airplane). For a practice session or real world situation where you think you might use an alternate, you can enter them, including the expected approach, in the Flight Plan Catalog before you ever leave the ground.

And, maybe obvious, maybe not, consider some time with a CFI who knows the box. I don't know your stage, but I have been surprised recently by pilots who did their checkrides with a GPS but don't know how to use it beyond the simplest basics,

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midlifeflyer said:
During a VLOC approach, your GPS will annunciate LNAV even when the CDI is displaying the VOR or localizer. The annunciation is keeping you informed of what the GPS is using to track your progress. Using the photo as a reference (it's not showing what you would see) during a VLOC approach the yellow would show VLOC, but the red would show LNAV.

You always...ALWAYS...need to check those frequencies - correct, active, and identified.

@RussR and I are of a single mind about not rushing. Training annd practice tend to be compressed but absent an emergency of some kind, real IFR is slow with plenty of time. Delay vectors are great. Using time in a hold to set up the next approach is also a good strategy. Simply slowing down can help too (especially in a fast airplane). For a practice session or real world situation where you think you might use an alternate, you can enter them, including the expected approach, in the Flight Plan Catalog before you ever leave the ground.

And, maybe obvious, maybe not, consider some time with a CFI who knows the box. I don't know your stage, but been surprised recently by pilots who did their checkrides with a GOS the dint know how to use beyond the simplest basics,

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Wow. Thank you so much. That’s (if I recall correctly) exactly what happened and seeing LNAV in red completely threw me off. So maybe if I had not started toggling the CDI button (and possibly trying to use direct - still fuzzy about my actions in rushed attempts to fix) perhaps the G430 would have switched to ILS once I intercepted the glide slope?
In my IFR training with CFIIs, we’d always be rushed and we’d just load direct even on the ground and activate under procedure once cleared/vectored byATC. I tried to do it this time by setting up a flight plan on the ground.worked well for the first leg.
Can you please help me understand how to best terminate the active leg (airport 1 once I am done maneuvering) and move on to the next leg. Or is it actually necessary?
 
PeterDe said:
Wow. Thank you so much. That’s (if I recall correctly) exactly what happened and seeing LNAV in red completely threw me off. So maybe if I had not started toggling the CDI button (and possibly trying to use direct - still fuzzy about my actions in rushed attempts to fix) perhaps the G430 would have switched to ILS once I intercepted the glide slope?
In my IFR training with CFIIs, we’d always be rushed and we’d just load direct even on the ground and activate under procedure once cleared/vectored byATC. I tried to do it this time by setting up a flight plan on the ground.worked well for the first leg.
Can you please help me understand how to best terminate the active leg (airport 1 once I am done maneuvering) and move on to the next leg. Or is it actually necessary?
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If auto-switching is active, it will switch to the ILS and change CDI when the FAF becomes the active waypoint. But even there, there's the gotcha I mentioned about not auto-switching when a VOR is already active. Plus in the 430 you don't have the 530 advantage of the VOR or LOC being identified by the unit. You still have to manually switch from COM to NAV press the button, have NAV1 live in the audio panel and listen to it. That's a lot to do at one of the highest workload points on the approach, which is why my SOP is to manually tune, place it in active, and identify before that point.

Yeah, in training you are usually rushed. That's for efficiency and to prepare you for the few times you need to do things quickly.

There are a couple of ways. The point is the current approach, including the missed, needs to be inactive before you can load an approach to another airport. Other than the catalog pre-loaded, the simplest is to have the next airport at the end of the flight plan. If you scroll down to it (or a waypoint after the current airport) and press D→ it will terminate the prior approach and you can load one to the new airport.
 
The best way to understand this is that your 430w is really three units in one- a communications radio, a GPS, and a VOR/ILS receiver. All you actually need to do to fly an ILS is enter the frequency in the reciever, flip it to active, switch to CDI, then track it. Loading the approach is an optional step that gives you better situational awareness/guidance to your initial fix and help setting the frequency but it's not required since your actual navigation is coming from the ILS reciever not the GPS if that makes sense.
 
Thank you. I really did not think of it that way. So in principle I did not have to activate an approach for ILS, just ignore the GPS part of it and dial manually the localized frequency, toggle CDI to LOC and look for the glideslope to cone in. Never occurred to me, not just because it was busy but I simply thought all of it needs to be handled through the approach procedure. Wow, that’s exactly what I could have done instead of pressing various buttons. Still don’t know whether I would have had time to brief the approach plate lookup frequencies etc. but now I know it’s an option.

However, I guess that for RNAV approaches I would have to load/activate a specific procedure. Correct?
 
PeterDe said:
dial manually the localized frequency, toggle CDI to LOC and look for the glideslope to cone in
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Yes, it's that easy. The only additional step is to manually set the OBS (if you have a CDI) or course pointer (if you have an HSI) to the final approach course. Trying to intercept the localizer with an course pointer that is not aligned with the final approach course can be "interesting".

And yes, for RNAV approaches you have to load a procedure into the GPS, and activate it. Note that "activating" can be as simple as going to an Initial Approach Fix of the procedure; there is no magic mode switch when an approach is activated.

- Martin
 
PeterDe said:
Thank you. I really did not think of it that way. So in principle I did not have to activate an approach for ILS, just ignore the GPS part of it and dial manually the localized frequency, toggle CDI to LOC and look for the glideslope to cone in. Never occurred to me, not just because it was busy but I simply thought all of it needs to be handled through the approach procedure. Wow, that’s exactly what I could have done instead of pressing various buttons. Still don’t know whether I would have had time to brief the approach plate lookup frequencies etc. but now I know it’s an option.

However, I guess that for RNAV approaches I would have to load/activate a specific procedure. Correct?
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Yes on both. When you are tuned into an ILS, the receiver is taking analogue radio signals from the ground and using them to move the needles on your CDI. Depending on the specific ILS approach you may need a second device to determine where your waypoints are... usually either an intersection with a VOR or maybe an outer marker(those three colored lights on your audio panel), or a DME.

Now, I'm just explaining how/why it works. There are good reasons to go ahead and load the ILS approach anyway. The obvious is situational awareness of having the GPS showing you where your waypoints are. The second is that DME(distance measuring equiptment) bit. Before GPS planes would have yet another insturment called a DME which would read out miles to a navaid so you could determine your position. The FAA has ruled that you can use a GPS instead of a DME and most aircraft these days don't have an actual DME so on a DME required approach you may still need to use the GPS functionality.

If you're flying an RNAV appraoch, those CDI needles are entirely driven by the GPS so yes you have to have the approach loaded otherwise it won't do anything- it would be like trying to fly the ILS without tuning in the radio frequency, you'd get nothing. An interesting side note is an RNAV LPV approach is actually simulating how an ILS would work(at least as far as the needles and how they move).

Again, just trying to explain the how/why this works. There are alot more subtle little nuances to this stuff which hopefully you'll keep picking up along the way.
 
PeterDe said:
So in principle I did not have to activate an approach for ILS, just ignore the GPS part of it and dial manually the localized frequency, toggle CDI to LOC and look for the glideslope to cone in.
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Yes in principle. And being able to do it that way is an important skill in case of a GPS failure. But you lose some of the benefits of GPS when you don't load the approach. Enhanced situational awareness. Sequencing and positive guidance for the missed approach. Location of stepdown fixes outside the FAS and, for a localizer approach, inside the FAF. And with RNAV TAAs being added to ILS approaches (like the photo), the ability to use the simple non-vector navigation RNAV provides.

1698164856402.png
 
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Martin Pauly said:
Yes, it's that easy. The only additional step is to manually set the OBS (if you have a CDI) or course pointer (if you have an HSI) to the final approach course. Trying to intercept the localizer with an course pointer that is not aligned with the final approach course can be "interesting".

And yes, for RNAV approaches you have to load a procedure into the GPS, and activate it. Note that "activating" can be as simple as going to an Initial Approach Fix of the procedure; there is no magic mode switch when an approach is activated.

- Martin
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Oh I see. The OBS would have to be adjusted to final course either way (whether the approach is manually entered or by loading/activating an approach via proc button. Right? Come to think of it I forgot to do that as well…it so drives the message home of the need to slow down or ask for delay vectors and follow the steps (by the way holds are busy at least for me so it would be difficult at least for me). Thank you to all for great tips.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Plus in the 430 you don't have the 530 advantage of the VOR or LOC being identified by the unit. You still have to manually switch from COM to NAV press the button, have NAV1 live in the audio panel and listen to it
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Would there be a problem with losing communication with ATC while identifying Morse? I forget - will COM1 frequency still be heard when NAV1 is live? I forget as I’ve never done it solo but yes with CFII not paying attention due to the workload.
 
PeterDe said:
Would there be a problem with losing communication with ATC while identifying Morse? I forget - will COM1 frequency still be heard when NAV1 is live? I forget as I’ve never done it solo but yes with CFII not paying attention due to the workload.
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You will not lose comm. I don't know what you have but audio panels have the capability of listing to more than one thing at a time.
 
PeterDe said:
Oh I see. The OBS would have to be adjusted to final course either way (whether the approach is manually entered or by loading/activating an approach via proc button. Right?
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It depends... if it's an electronic HSI, then it will likely get slewed to the appropriate approach course automatically when you activate the approach in the GPS/NAV/COM. If it's a mechanical HSI, then yes, you'll have to set it to the correct course manually either way.

- Martin
 
On both the 530w and 430w I‘ve flown with the OBS knob position didn’t matter on GPS course, RNAV or tracking a localizer(ILS). You could set it anywhere and wouldn’t change the needles although I think it will cause a message to pop up prompting you to adjust it. Setting the OBS is best practice of course and it absolutely will matter if tracking a VOR.
 
cowman said:
On both the 530w and 430w I‘ve flown with the OBS knob position didn’t matter on GPS course, RNAV or tracking a localizer(ILS). You could set it anywhere and wouldn’t change the needles although I think it will cause a message to pop up prompting you to adjust it. Setting the OBS is best practice of course and it absolutely will matter if tracking a VOR.
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Thanks. I am a bit confused here. Are you saying that (a) no matter where the arrow points the deflection of the needle (or its alignment) would still work (but probably awkward to view if for example the needle is horizontal) or (b) the HSI would right itself? Or did I completely miss the point (I fear this is the case, “c”).
 
PeterDe said:
Thanks. I am a bit confused here. Are you saying that (a) no matter where the arrow points the deflection of the needle (or its alignment) would still work (but probably awkward to view if for example the needle is horizontal) or (b) the HSI would right itself? Or did I completely miss the point (I fear this is the case, “c”).
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I am basically saying A, at least for sure on a standard CDI I'm less familiar with HSIs but I don't see why it would be different. The purpose of an OBS knob is (basically) to find, follow, or identify a radial on a VOR. A GPS course does not have radials, nor does an ILS. It's a single set line on a chart, so the OBS doesn't really have a function for those things. It's just considered best practice to be in the habit of setting it.

Edit to add:
Since you're learning IFR stuff, I'm assuming you're an instrument student with a private pilot's license. If you want, you could take a plane out under VFR and try all this stuff out in VFR conditions, preferably at some uncontrolled field with little traffic. You can't be under the hood or log it obviously but you can set up the approach on your instruments and try different things to see how they behave. It's not really a bad way to practice and get familiar with approaches either, you just can't log the approaches.
 
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PeterDe said:
Thanks. I am a bit confused here. Are you saying that (a) no matter where the arrow points the deflection of the needle (or its alignment) would still work (but probably awkward to view if for example the needle is horizontal) or (b) the HSI would right itself? Or did I completely miss the point (I fear this is the case, “c”).
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You're basically correct. On a CDI the needle is always oriented vertically, so the OBS setting doesn't really "matter" on an RNAV or ILS course, but it is a good habit to get into, setting it correctly (and, depending on the autopilot you have, if you don't have GPSS, it may be necessary - but that's another topic).

For an HSI, the needle may be at an angle or horizontal or backwards depending the CRS knob setting. It's really hard to fly an RNAV or ILS approach with the needle oriented sideways, so it's necessary to select the proper course. For a mechanical HSI, you need to do this yourself. For an electronic HSI, usually the course is auto-set by the GPS or FMS if you load the procedure. If you choose to just fly raw data, then you'd need to set it yourself (because then, it wouldn't know what you're planning to do).

Using the below HSI example, you can see it would be rather obvious that you need to set your CRS if, say the final approach course was 290-ish, and this is what you got when lining up on final.

1698234926342.png
 
PeterDe said:
Oh I see. The OBS would have to be adjusted to final course either way (whether the approach is manually entered or by loading/activating an approach via proc button. Right? Come to think of it I forgot to do that as well…it so drives the message home of the need to slow down or ask for delay vectors and follow the steps (by the way holds are busy at least for me so it would be difficult at least for me). Thank you to all for great tips.
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Just so you know ... it all becomes easier. Almost natural. On the flip side, I know accomplished pilots who add their brief-identify-verify approach methodology into their personal checklists.
 
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