Practice Circle to Landing?

rpadula

rpadula

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While practicing approaches to rwy 4 at GVL last Sunday, winds favored rwy 11. My safety pilot suggested trying a circle-to-land, because it's just a short side-step and we're easily on right base to 11. I declined for a few reasons:

1) I was stinking up the joint on GPS and wanted to do more approaches
2) Not excited about making right base into traffic, even with a safety pilot
3) Looking at the ground at MDA, it sure is low!

So, I'm wondering how often you guys practice real circle-to-lands.


-Rich
 
with students regularly, it is required on the IR PTS, plus an often botched manuever in actual conditions. There is a reason they were added to the requirements for an IPC. Home airport here has an ILS to 01 and a VOR approach to 31. Without a GPS those are the only runways you get into. Typically I will get the ILS to 01 and if the wind is not favorable and ceilings are high enough, I'll circle to a different runway.
 
Don't know crap about instrument flying. But I practice circle to land all the time because I think it's fun.
 
rpadula said:
2) Not excited about making right base into traffic, even with a safety pilot
3) Looking at the ground at MDA, it sure is low!

So, I'm wondering how often you guys practice real circle-to-lands.


-Rich
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As often as it takes to not have your reasons 2 & 3.

Any time you are uncomfortable with a maneuver, that is exactly what you should do. Even when you are doing a straight-in non-precision, sometimes when you break out, you are not aligned enough to land staight-in and you will have to circle.
 
I consider the 'circle to land' part of my normal "hey let's go shoot some approaches" list of things to do. Sure it's low, but I would MUCH rather get comfortable being that low when I can actually see things rather than waiting till the stuff hits the fan and have to fly it UNcomfortably in actual conditions.
 
In terms of training for the IR practical test, remember that "The runway selected must be such that it requires at least a 90° change of direction, from the final approach course, to align the aircraft for landing." A simple side-step, even though governed in reality by the CTL mins, isn't enough to fill the square on the the practical test Area VI, Task D Circling Approach.

One other point in practicing CTL's is that if you're at a nontowered airport in good VMC with other aircraft in the pattern, it is prudent to raise the MDA to TPA and join the pattern, so you are where the other aircraft are looking for other traffic. To practice "real" CTL maneuvers, find a quiet airport with no other traffic, a towered airport, or weather such that there's no VFR traffic in the pattern.
 
rpadula said:
So, I'm wondering how often you guys practice real circle-to-lands.
Click to expand...

Lots. Maybe every 3rd practice approach or so.

I'd suggest that everyone go do some hood work at night, and after being under the hood for a while, do a circle to land. That was an eye-opener! Actually, it wasn't at first. CFI kept saying "Don't descend yet!" (Me: "What do you mean, I'm already on base!") Then, after we landed, we went around the pattern VFR. Whoa... That sure looks different!

Without having done that, chances are I'd have left an airplane in a tree the first time I tried to circle at night on an actual approach.
 
rpadula said:
While practicing approaches to rwy 4 at GVL last Sunday, winds favored rwy 11. My safety pilot suggested trying a circle-to-land, because it's just a short side-step and we're easily on right base to 11. I declined for a few reasons:

1) I was stinking up the joint on GPS and wanted to do more approaches
2) Not excited about making right base into traffic, even with a safety pilot
3) Looking at the ground at MDA, it sure is low!

So, I'm wondering how often you guys practice real circle-to-lands.


-Rich
Click to expand...

It doesn't take very long to practice CTL, and the safety pilot was right there with you ready to go. At least go to a quieter airport sometime if that one is too busy.

There's degrees of comfort when flying properly and CTL from IMC should be right on the line of comfort, maybe somewhat past it and into uncomfortable -that's normal.
 
KGVL was somewhat busy Sunday afternoon. I responded to a previous post where you had contributed regarding your flight on Sunday as well.

Normally, KGVL isn't that busy. On clear days, it can get pretty good use. Our cheap fuel has drawn extra traffic on those days. If ceilings are low, you'll have it to yourself a lot more. I'm talking down to only about a thousand or bit higher.

Sunday, I called "Circling to Land" as safety pilot when leaving Flowery Branch. But, with three other aircraft in the pattern, I had him just fall into place on downwind with an immediate turn to a square base. Had the planes not been there, a normal circle to land would be good.

With a LOC 4 approach followed by a circle around to 29 or on to 22, you'd have plenty of clearance. Circling minimum is 1820 and field elevation is 1375. You were good to go as long as you kept calling it.

Other traffic can be a pain at times. It's kept me from practicing power off 180's much of the time. A couple times, I just did a right 360 on downwind to get spacing on an aircraft in front of me.

Winder is probably your next bet for similar landscape and a localizer followed by circling.
 
In my opinion, a circle to land approach is one of the most difficult things an instrument pilot is ever going to be called on to do. Not that all straight-ins are easy but there are so many elements to a circle that the chances to mess up are pretty significant. Given that, I think the circle manuver should get as much attention in training as any straight in which means it should be practiced often.
It's really important that instrument pilots read and fully understanding restrictions to circling approaches. Some of those restrictions will be on your approach plate but as new obstructions and restrictions to the facility are found, those circling mins might change. While you will always have at least 300 feet of obstacle clearance over anything in your aircraft category's circling area it's vital to your safety to use the current minimums.
Also, if you plan to fly instruments at night, you'd better have a good handle on night circling before you do it. Practice, practice, practice.....and be safe out there.
 
rpadula said:
So, I'm wondering how often you guys practice real circle-to-lands.
Click to expand...

All the time. Both approaches into my home aerodrome are to runway 27. If the winds favor R9 it is circle time. I also will practice them at an airport that is one of my usual alternates when I file to come home and I fly them for real a lot going into KSMD, again only approaches are to one runway.
 
I certainly practice them but won't put myself in a position to do one in Actual.
 
AdamZ said:
I certainly practice them but won't put myself in a position to do one in Actual.
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If you are still in 'actual' then you should have gone missed.

Also if you break out and have great vis with a high enough ceiling why wouldn't you do them? The last one I did the I broke out at 1800feet and the field elevation was 820feet with 7miles of vis. in daylight. It was completely safe.

Then there was the not too long ago approach I opted not to circle but landed with a tailwind (5knots). Night time, broke out a couple of hundred feet above the MDA and low vis.

Circling is a tool and you need to exercise care with that new tool.
 
smigaldi said:
If you are still in 'actual' then you should have gone missed.

Also if you break out and have great vis with a high enough ceiling why wouldn't you do them? The last one I did the I broke out at 1800feet and the field elevation was 820feet with 7miles of vis. in daylight. It was completely safe.

Then there was the not too long ago approach I opted not to circle but landed with a tailwind (5knots). Night time, broke out a couple of hundred feet above the MDA and low vis.

Circling is a tool and you need to exercise care with that new tool.
Click to expand...

Well I certainly didn't mean that I'd do it if I got to MDA and was still in IMC. What I was trying to say was I practice them for emergencys but I am not very comfortable with them so I won't put myself in a position where I need one.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Lots. Maybe every 3rd practice approach or so.

I'd suggest that everyone go do some hood work at night, and after being under the hood for a while, do a circle to land. That was an eye-opener! Actually, it wasn't at first. CFI kept saying "Don't descend yet!" (Me: "What do you mean, I'm already on base!") Then, after we landed, we went around the pattern VFR. Whoa... That sure looks different!

Without having done that, chances are I'd have left an airplane in a tree the first time I tried to circle at night on an actual approach.
Click to expand...

CTL is way different than any other landings you practice. It's not really an instrument procedure, it's more of a low close-in short approach and especially challenging in low vis and/or darkness (with both it's bad enough to avoid outright). IMO one should try it in the daytime with good vis to understand the difficulties then move on to darkness or low vis daytime. One of the key differences is that if you start at the circle MDA you are often well below normal pattern altitude and therefore shouldn't descend any further until on (short) final. The other biggie is keeping the downwind and base leg as short as possible during VMC practice so you are familiar with the view when you try it in low vis. Things look a lot different when turning from downwind to base at 400 AGL.
 
As part of my six month IPC schedule I practice CTL (FTD with 170 degree field of vision and in the plane as part of the IPC) approaches regularly. When doing them in the plane we use quiet out of the way airports.

In actual flight I will do them during daylight hours if the ceiling and visibility are basically at VFR minimums. I don't do them at night at all, but I will do a visual approach at night if I am familiar with the field and the weather is VFR.

Jay
 
Almost ALL full stop landings from the ILS8 at LNS (Lancaster PA) on VFR days are CTL, because the primaries for VFR days are usually 26 and 31. "85S, CTL for 31, report in the circle". Lots of practice. But I'm with Adam Z, I've yet to do one under the clouds in actual, and I'm not excited about my first one. Not enough time in actual to be comfortable with that idea yet.

Jim G
 
Thanks everyone for all the replies. CTL goes on the list!


-Rich
 
AdamZ said:
Well I certainly didn't mean that I'd do it if I got to MDA and was still in IMC. What I was trying to say was I practice them for emergencys but I am not very comfortable with them so I won't put myself in a position where I need one.
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Ooo! Good idea! ...Let's see, now..I'l never put myself in a position to ever have to...go-around,..uh,...slip,..abort a take-off, make a forced landing, especially a turn-around on take off,...whew! that one really scares me...
Yeah, I don't need any of that stuff, so I'll just stay away from that area altogether.:rolleyes:
 
Fast n' Furious said:
In my opinion, a circle to land approach is one of the most difficult things an instrument pilot is ever going to be called on to do.
Click to expand...

Which is why UAL has the requirement to do circling approaches at 1,000 feet AGL or MDA whichever is HIGHER.

We also are not allowed to do NDB approaches with less than 2 miles vis or charted vis whichever is HIGHER.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Which is why UAL has the requirement to do circling approaches at 1,000 feet AGL or MDA whichever is HIGHER.

We also are not allowed to do NDB approaches with less than 2 miles vis or charted vis whichever is HIGHER.
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Just curious, is that for all airframes or do they change based on what you are flying? How often do you have to do NDB approaches these days?\

Last week during CRM training we did review a Flying Tigers Accident where they were doing an NDB approach with a 747 in Kuala Lampur. The crew mis heard an altitude assignment and where so busy trying to set up the NDB approach they had a CFIT.
 
smigaldi said:
Just curious, is that for all airframes or do they change based on what you are flying?
Click to expand...

Everything we own.

How often do you have to do NDB approaches these days?\
Click to expand...

For real? Very slightly more than never. :D

Last week during CRM training we did review a Flying Tigers Accident where they were doing an NDB approach with a 747 in Kuala Lampur. The crew mis heard an altitude assignment and where so busy trying to set up the NDB approach they had a CFIT.
Click to expand...

That made an interesting case study. I don't recall all the details, but that was just a small part of the problem.
 
The guy I stayed with in Memphis is an A&P for FedEx. He works in avionics and was telling about retrofitting Airbusses (or is it Airbi?) so the ADF on the Captains side was on the emergency bus or something like that. Apparently one of their destinations in timbuktu was only served by an NDB. It may have been South America somewhere.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That made an interesting case study. I don't recall all the details, but that was just a small part of the problem.
Click to expand...
Fatigue was a big part of it, they were hoping for an ILS and did not have the NDB plate out. The ILS was OTS so as they were trying to get ready for the approach a radio call came in "descend to (two) four zero zero. They responded down to 400 and the approach altitude was 2400. The CP and FO are heard asking each other why so low but they never cross checked it with the plate and ... well you know.
 
smigaldi said:
Fatigue was a big part of it, they were hoping for an ILS and did not have the NDB plate out. The ILS was OTS so as they were trying to get ready for the approach a radio call came in "descend to (two) four zero zero. They responded down to 400 and the approach altitude was 2400. The CP and FO are heard asking each other why so low but they never cross checked it with the plate and ... well you know.
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Yes, I do. :(
 
Quote:
How often do you have to do NDB approaches these days?\
For real? Very slightly more than never. :D

Quite true but, some real cool places still have only NDBs.

Tofino, BC on Vancouver Island's west shore has only the NDB to get you down under typical overcast scud regionally, then one can fly under it VFR just off shore, looking for a beach landing.
 
a lot of airports in Iowa are served only by NDBs, unless you have GPS
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Quite true but, some real cool places still have only NDBs.
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That is true, but in the context of Tony's question, we at UAL don't serve those places. I have NEVER done a for real NDB approach at United. In fact, I haven't done anything other than ILS's at United.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is true, but in the context of Tony's question, we at UAL don't serve those places. I have NEVER done a for real NDB approach at United. In fact, I haven't done anything other than ILS's at United.
Click to expand...

Greg,

Do they make you do any non-precision (NDB or otherwise) approaches in the sim?
 
FWIW the last "real" NDB approach I can remember doing was about 2 years ago. It was pretty much to minimums and a circle to land because of the wind direction. We still practice and are tested on NDB approaches during recurrent, per company request.
 
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