Practice Approach with S Pilot - When need ATC Communication?

WDD

WDD

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
6,341
Location
Atlanta / Marietta
Display Name
Display name:
Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Assume the following:
  • I'm flying with a S Pilot while I'm under the hood
  • We are VFR
  • S Pilot gives me vector to do a practice ILS to a Class E untowered field
  • On way back to Class D Towered Airport, SP says cannot fly VFR into Class D while I'm flying a practice ILS by only talking with Class D Airport Tower. Must fly with ATC Approach, squawk a code, etc.
Given I flew practice approaches VFR with my CFII into D airport and only talked with D airport tower, I assumed it wasn't mandatory to speak to ATC Approach when flying into a D airport.

Another example is that I was right seat when we were returning at night to the D airfield, and the PIC pulled up the LPV for the runway were were cleared direct for just as a double check. (PAPI was out as well BTW).

Question to controllers - what is allowed?


Edit ATC to ATC Approach
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
On way back to Class D Towered Airport, SP says cannot fly VFR into Class D while I'm flying a practice ILS by only talking with Class D Airport Tower. Must fly with ATC, squawk a code, etc.
Click to expand...

WDD said:
Given I flew practice approaches VFR with my CFII into D airport and only talked with D airport tower, I assumed it wasn't mandatory to speak to ATC when flying into a D airport.
Click to expand...
I’m confused. You talked to the Tower controller but you didn’t think it was mandatory to speak to ATC at a Class D? I guess I don’t understand your question.
 
I think I understand the question.

Start from the beginning - it is not strictly mandatory to be speaking with Approach when flying VFR into a Class D airport. If you are flying a practice approach under VFR, you are still VFR. You call the tower and tell them you position and the route you are taking. If the route happens to be part of an approach, so be it.

That said, the better practice is to use Approach for so many good reasons. I can think of a reason or two why a CFII might want to sometimes forego ATC services for an approach into a Class D airport in certain limited satiations.
 
many class deltas want you to coordinate with ATC for an actual practice approach. if u just wanna fly it for funsies, fly to the FAC and call up 10nm out, then just fly the approach, but don't ask tower for a practice approach. I do it often......I'll fly to the IF which is on the FAC and 12nm out to the active rwy then call up tower. they'll typically clear me straight in since I'm already lined up, then I'll just fly the approach.
 
The standard military way of doing this is what we call "Inside-Outside." That is where the PNOC or instructor talks to TRACON and arranges the routing and clearance, etc. and the pilot flying does not hear any of this. Then the PNOC issues vectors and clearance at the appropriate time and then switches to the real ATC when contacting the tower or CTAF.

This helps avoid confusion in a busy area for the pilot flying, but requires some quick hustling on the radios for the other guy.
 
There is no requirement to call the approach control facility prior to a practice instrument approach to a towered field.

If ATC wants you to contact approach first, the tower controller will tell you to do so when you call them for the practice approach.
 
Others have already answered correctly, but I'll word it differently maybe:

From the tower's perspective, what's the difference between a 10 nm ILS and a 10 nm straight-in VFR final? Nothing.

EXCEPT - the missed approach. If you plan on landing, then it doesn't really matter. If you plan on making a missed approach, then it may very much matter to the tower what you're doing, depending on the missed approach routing (and traffic, airspace, etc.).

Second EXCEPT - on final, if you have talked to approach and been sequenced in to the ILS final, you are more likely to be able to proceed inbound without being adjusted. They know what you're doing and have allowed for it. If you just call up tower for a 10 nm final, who knows what you may get. Maybe "cleared to land", which is great, or maybe they tell you to switch runways, or make a 360, or who knows, which may or may not waste your training time.
 
No need to talk to approach, but I think your chances are much better to be able to fly your approach without getting jerked around in the delta if approach has primed the circuit for you.
 
It’s going to be different at each Delta. Here up until 2 years ago you could just talk to tower the entire time. Now you need to talk to Approach to arrange it, then they’ll switch you to Tower, then you contact Approach again once you’ve gone missed. We let approach know when the last one will be so they don’t expect a return on missed and to thank them for coordination.
 
RyanB said:
I’m confused. You talked to the Tower controller but you didn’t think it was mandatory to speak to ATC at a Class D? I guess I don’t understand your question.
Click to expand...

Can I fly a practice approach while under the hood with a SP in the right seat while we are in VFR by talking only the the class D tower? Is it mandatory that we contact ATC Approach first?
 
Last edited:
eman1200 said:
many class deltas want you to coordinate with ATC for an actual practice approach. if u just wanna fly it for funsies, fly to the FAC and call up 10nm out, then just fly the approach, but don't ask tower for a practice approach. I do it often......I'll fly to the IF which is on the FAC and 12nm out to the active rwy then call up tower. they'll typically clear me straight in since I'm already lined up, then I'll just fly the approach.
Click to expand...

This - thanks
 
At our drome, we call them up and request “tracking” (insert approach). I.e. “Tower, xxxxxx, 10 miles west, tracking ILS 10, information Kay beck, full stop”. If they ask, we request it more precisely.

It’s never not worked for me.
 
RyanB said:
I’m confused. You talked to the Tower controller but you didn’t think it was mandatory to speak to ATC at a Class D? I guess I don’t understand your question.
Click to expand...
I think he meant "approach" when he typed "ATC", as opposed to the tower.
 
Dana said:
I think he meant "approach" when he typed "ATC", as opposed to the tower.
Click to expand...

I think you’re right, though it took a few times reading it for me to figure that out as well.

WDD said:
Can I fly a practice approach while under the hood with a SP in the right seat while we are in VFR by talking only the the class D tower? Is it mandatory that we contact ATC first?
Click to expand...

@WDD , because you posted it again using the same terms, I suspect maybe a misunderstanding. A control tower IS an ATC facility. So is approach control. So is Center.
 
Yeah. I know. Casual use of terms. Ground, tower, and the other - ATC. I edited my previous post to clarify for those who got confused. Appreciated the other responses that answered the question.
 
There is noting mandatory about contacting Approach first, that is just the discretion of that tower to issue a practice approach.

Its better to just let everyone know your intentions..and you will have the best chance at executing the full approach starting with Approach. If you just fly into a Delta VFR you are subject to the traffic pattern directions of Tower based on traffic where Approach can cue you up and hand you off for an actual full approach into Delta.

Safety pilot should be irrelevant to the situation.
 
WDD said:
Can I fly a practice approach while under the hood with a SP in the right seat while we are in VFR by talking only the the class D tower? Is it mandatory that we contact ATC Approach first?
Click to expand...

Yes.

No it is not mandatory.

and depending on how busy it is, you can set up VTF and don’t even have to tell tower you are doing a practice approach.
 
WDD said:
Yeah. I know. Casual use of terms. Ground, tower, and the other - ATC. I edited my previous post to clarify for those who got confused. Appreciated the other responses that answered the question.
Click to expand...

It depends. Some fields have letters of agreement that they will require you to contact approach before you shoot the approach. For example, Frederick MD and Martinsburg WV require you to talk to Potomac Approach to get cleared for a practice approach but Hagerstown MD you just contact tower. Contact the tower and they should let you know if you need to talk to approach first.
 
Pugs said:
It depends. Some fields have letters of agreement that they will require you to contact approach before you shoot the approach. For example, Frederick MD and Martinsburg WV require you to talk to Potomac Approach to get cleared for a practice approach but Hagerstown MD you just contact tower. Contact the tower and they should let you know if you need to talk to approach first.
Click to expand...
I had absolutely no idea that was even a possibility. I do learn a lot from this place.
 
WDD said:
Assume the following:
  • I'm flying with a S Pilot while I'm under the hood
  • We are VFR
  • S Pilot gives me vector to do a practice ILS to a Class E untowered field
  • On way back to Class D Towered Airport, SP says cannot fly VFR into Class D while I'm flying a practice ILS by only talking with Class D Airport Tower. Must fly with ATC Approach, squawk a code, etc.
Given I flew practice approaches VFR with my CFII into D airport and only talked with D airport tower, I assumed it wasn't mandatory to speak to ATC Approach when flying into a D airport.

Another example is that I was right seat when we were returning at night to the D airfield, and the PIC pulled up the LPV for the runway were were cleared direct for just as a double check. (PAPI was out as well BTW).

Question to controllers - what is allowed?


Edit ATC to ATC Approach
Click to expand...
The Controllers rules are that there are 3 kinds of practice approaches. (1) by an IFR aircraft. (2) where a program has been established to provide IFR separation to VFR aircraft doing practice approaches. (3) where a program has not been established. If you are on an IFR Clearance the only difference from any IFR aircraft is that practice approaches are not supposed to delay other traffic. Where a program has been established, standard IFR separation will be applied except that vertical separation of 500 feet instead of 1000 feet may be used and the Missed Approach Procedure is not authorized. Where a program has not been established is where you get the ‘practice approach approved, separation services will not be provided’ speech. You’ll be starting out with Approach Control or the Center on the first two examples. In the no program established example, calling Approach/Center first with your request is the more common way of doing it. There are no explicit ATC rules that the Tower cannot do it though. Local knowledge of ‘hows theys does thangs down thar’ dictates who you should call first.
 
WDD said:
I’ll double check for NAMs for practice approaches - thanks
Click to expand...
And @RingLaserGyroSandwich

Checking for Notams isn’t going to tell you about it. It’s in a Letter to Airmen. Here’s the one that covers you at KRYY. I had to search for LTA’s at A80, Atlanta Tracons ID. Don’t know why. Years ago that’s what you would have to do. Then a few years ago they made it so you could find them by a search of an individual airport. I think that’s still true for the most part but this LTA didn’t show up in a search of RYY.

https://notams.aim.faa.gov/lta/main/viewlta?lookupid=2729937649853798015
 
luvflyin said:
And @RingLaserGyroSandwich

Checking for Notams isn’t going to tell you about it. It’s in a Letter to Airmen. Here’s the one that covers you at KRYY. I had to search for LTA’s at A80, Atlanta Tracons ID. Don’t know why. Years ago that’s what you would have to do. Then a few years ago they made it so you could find them by a search of an individual airport. I think that’s still true for the most part but this LTA didn’t show up in a search of RYY.

https://notams.aim.faa.gov/lta/main/viewlta?lookupid=2729937649853798015
Click to expand...
If today I was planning to fly some practice approaches into KESN, I would check the NOTAMS for KESN. There is a NOTAM right now which points you to the appropriate letter to airmen, so checking NOTAMS will help for some ATC facilities. I wasn't saying checking NOTAMs is exhaustive, just that I've seen the information in NOTAMs before. Obviously you should check the NOTAMs either way.
 
luvflyin said:
And @RingLaserGyroSandwich

Checking for Notams isn’t going to tell you about it. It’s in a Letter to Airmen. Here’s the one that covers you at KRYY. I had to search for LTA’s at A80, Atlanta Tracons ID. Don’t know why. Years ago that’s what you would have to do. Then a few years ago they made it so you could find them by a search of an individual airport. I think that’s still true for the most part but this LTA didn’t show up in a search of RYY.

https://notams.aim.faa.gov/lta/main/viewlta?lookupid=2729937649853798015
Click to expand...
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
If today I was planning to fly some practice approaches into KESN, I would check the NOTAMS for KESN. There is a NOTAM right now which points you to the appropriate letter to airmen, so checking NOTAMS will help for some ATC facilities. I wasn't saying checking NOTAMs is exhaustive, just that I've seen the information in NOTAMs before. Obviously you should check the NOTAMs either way.
Click to expand...
Ok. KESN does it. I don’t think that is common
 
It looks like all the major Potomac TRACON airports have a similar NOTAM pointing to the associated letter (BWI, MTN, ESN, FDK, JYO, HEF, HGR, MRB, RIC, CHO). I don't know what percentage of approach facilities do this, but it's a good idea.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
It looks like all the major Potomac TRACON airports have a similar NOTAM pointing to the associated letter (BWI, MTN, ESN, FDK, JYO, HEF, HGR, MRB, RIC, CHO). I don't know what percentage of approach facilities do this, but it's a good idea.
Click to expand...
It is a good idea. Like I said, a few years ago they started doing it that way where you wouldn’t have to know the TRACONS identifier to find out if a particular airport was included in the LTA. Now it seems sometimes that works and other times not. I’ve never seen one come up in Foreflight when checking for Notams. Maybe some other Apps do. Do you always check for Notams in the faa.gov Notam page? Or some other way?
 
I always check for NOTAMs in the faa.gov NOTAM page (unless major change in plans mid-flight but that hasn't happened to me much yet).
 
@John Collins . You’re pretty in tune to the inner workings of the system. Any idea why Practice Approach LTA’s are sometimes not showing up in searches of an affected airport?
 
Great question. In FFlight only “effective” NAMs are shown. There is nothing showing about using Approach for VFR practice approaches.
 
I requested a practice approach in VFR conditions last week. There was another plane already on the approach, and another one approaching the IAF about the same time I was. I very much appreciated having Approach Control in the loop to deconflict the bunch of us!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top