Practicalities and economics of Private Pilot

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split

Filing Flight Plan
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split
I have been planning to get my private Pilots license....its just something that I have always wanted to do. My goal is to free myself from the hassle of commercial airlines and the tyranny of the TSA. However, as I think down the road to the point that I have the license....what then? I could rent a plane or I could buy. In the case of rental, it does not seem practical for domestic travel. My understanding is that the rental cost is by the hour + fuel. So If I'm flying and staying in another state for a week, this would break the bank. To own, means I need a place to store the plane, and then there is the cost of maintenance, insurance and the cost of the plane itself. The other option is fractional ownership...which is possible, but I don't typically play well with others.

Am I missing something or is this the reality of the situation?
 
You are seeing the reality of the situation rather clearly.

You choose to fly because you want to escape the TSA, and you want to fly on your own schedule. You choose to do this not because it's cheaper, but because it's what you want and may save you time. In my case, it does save time, or at least break even, for extra money and less stress.

If it's what you want to do, you should do it. Don't listen to the naysayers. Once you have the rating, you can see where it takes you. Without the rating, though, you will never know.
 
The reality of the situation is if you really want an aircraft to replace an airliner, you're going to need a sufficient pile of money that the expenses dwarf rentals.

That said, if you can be a bit flexible in your schedule and afford the IR and the airplane that goes with it, posters here claim a great deal of dispatchability.

As far as renting vs owning, it all depends on who's doing the rentals and what their policies are. If they don't allow the aircraft out overnight or charge through the nose for the privilege, they aren't likely to be very useful. In my own experience I had found clubs to be the best compromise. Most will allow the aircraft out as long as you need it, and are cost effective compared to rentals in many cases. If you own an aircraft you'll need to fly it about 100 hours a year to make it cost effective vs a rental.

Oh, and welcome to POA.
 
First welcome to POA. Second, Depending upon where you live GA may not be practical for business travel without an instrument rating. I'd say you have to travel pretty regularly for GA to make it worthwhile getting a PP rating just so you can travel for business.

The long short of it is that GA is IMHO rarely practical get the rating because its something you love. Thats not to say that GA is not practical for certain trips, it can be but I think as a general rule its not.

I used to try to justify the practicality of it but then some one said something on this board that made a lot of sense and that was to think of it like a boat. Folks don't buy boats for any practical reasons unless boating is part of their business. Why do people try to justify flying when we don't justify boating. People don't say gee if I buy my own boat I can go catch a sea bass and won't have to buy it in the super market.
 
Welcome! Good news is you only pay by the hour when the engine is running. Most rentals charge a daily minimum of 2-3 hrs. A flying club is a good combination of flexible overnight costs and affordability.

Go take a discovery flight!
 
I fly whenever I can for business, though it usually does not save me any or at least very little time. I figure the trip has to be more than a 2 hour car drive, before it is quicker and even then, it depends on the availability of transportation at the destination side. I have a pretty cheap to operate airplane (Cherokee) and even then, you pretty much have to throw out all the fixed costs to come close to commercial or car travel. That said, it is a heck of lot more fun. Sometimes I will fly, even if it will take me significantly longer and cost more.
 
Thanks for the great feedback. I have flown a Cessna and an UltraLight before.
I'm a certified Ocean Sailor and can charter anywhere in the world on the biggest of boats. Sailors struggle with buy versus charter also. But its a bit of an easier choice. If you plan to do ocean passages, then buying is really the only option. People spend years doing this at sea. Flying is a bit less obvious.
I don't forsee flying for business. I like the idea of owning as I never feel comfortable in a unknown boat/plane. I'm someone that likes to know the details and systems of the vehicles I'm operating. My first day of Boat charter is always stressful this reason. A club or fractional ownership might be an option as I would always use the same plane and hence would get to know it.
 
split said:
Thanks for the great feedback. I have flown a Cessna and an UltraLight before.
I'm a certified Ocean Sailor and can charter anywhere in the world on the biggest of boats. Sailors struggle with buy versus charter also. But its a bit of an easier choice. If you plan to do ocean passages, then buying is really the only option. People spend years doing this at sea. Flying is a bit less obvious.
I don't forsee flying for business. I like the idea of owning as I never feel comfortable in a unknown boat/plane. I'm someone that likes to know the details and systems of the vehicles I'm operating. My first day of Boat charter is always stressful this reason. A club or fractional ownership might be an option as I would always use the same plane and hence would get to know it.
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That is as good a reason as any for owning. Even with a club, you don't know what the last guy did on his flight or what he experienced. You might miss trends in performance, etc.
 
I think you have it mostly straight. The prospect of flying for business is what first attracted me. At the time I was driving four hours each way every week and I knew it could be one hour flying.

Something that you might be missing is that, depending on your company, you might not be allowed to fly your airplane for business because of their risk management.

Also, you need to consider training and weather. One of the realities that I'm seeing is that since I don't have an IFR rating yet, I get grounded often enough that I can't rely on the airplane to get me around.
 
The reality of depending on GA travel to replace the airlines is that other than in some special parts of the country (mid Arizona for one with their 300+ days of sunshine) you need an Instrument rating and a flying machine with some de-icing capability (at least wing boots, prop alcohol, and a hot windshield)... An extra engine becomes a real comfort at that point in time...

You also need a mind set that you will, at the drop of a hat, park the plane and take the airline and come back for the plane later... The mind set is the most important tool... Lacking that, your long term survival is questionable.. We have an astronaut/fighter-pilot/test-pilot that lost his mind set and did not survive it... Even with the mind set it requires some good judgment... We have had two turboprop GA planes (privately flown to avoid the airlines) in the recent past who did not survive ice (probably)...

The last point is that you are looking to replace the tyranny of the TSA with the tyranny of the FAA... Guess which has had many more generations of practice in the art of tyranny...

Now, having pointed out the realities of GA travel, if you remain determined, welcome aboard...
 
split said:
I have been planning to get my private Pilots license....its just something that I have always wanted to do. My goal is to free myself from the hassle of commercial airlines and the tyranny of the TSA. However, as I think down the road to the point that I have the license....what then? I could rent a plane or I could buy. In the case of rental, it does not seem practical for domestic travel. My understanding is that the rental cost is by the hour + fuel. So If I'm flying and staying in another state for a week, this would break the bank. To own, means I need a place to store the plane, and then there is the cost of maintenance, insurance and the cost of the plane itself. The other option is fractional ownership...which is possible, but I don't typically play well with others.

Am I missing something or is this the reality of the situation?
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Pretty much right. Only thing is that in nearly all circumstances, the cost of a rental includes the cost of fuel. And just to be clear, you're billed per hour that the propeller is turning, not per hour you have the airplane.

Beating the airlines will work if you're not flying far. I did the numbers at one point, and for a 350ish mile flight, flying GA (in something like a Cessna 172) and taking the airlines ends up about the same in terms of time. GA would be faster for anything shorter than that. In terms of money, GA would run you more than the airlines, and without an instrument rating, you could find yourself stuck somewhere you weren't expecting to be.

That being said, GA is a great way to go if you want the flexibility, aren't planning to travel terribly far, and have enough money to make it work.
 
If you want to fly for fun, then go for it. If you need to accomplish a mission with a (private) airplane...seek therapy. Because it ranks right up there with private ocean passages in terms of practicality. Most light airplanes are akin to an unballasted sloop with a wet compass - great fun when the skipper and the mission are dialed in for fun on a sunny, breezy lake. But if the lake is Lake Michigan, and you want to sail your Snipe from Chicago to Mackinac Isle, the potential for easy, breezy and fun just got a lot more complicated. Better take a bucket.

Reliable transportation in a light airplane requires a skipper with a few miles under his keel and a well equipt and maintained vessel. It doesn't cost millions, but you could spend that much. How much does it cost for an oceanworthy sailing craft, and what experience would you require of the skipper if your loved ones were going along? Yeah, same with airplanes.
 
AdamZ said:
The long short of it is that GA is IMHO rarely practical get the rating because its something you love. Thats not to say that GA is not practical for certain trips, it can be but I think as a general rule its not.
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Coming out of Williamsport, as a general rule commercial air travel isn't a practical means of transport. You have to go through PHL for everything. Virtually anyplace within a 500 nm radius will be faster driving (which will be cheaper), and virtually anyplace within a 1000 nm radius will be faster flying GA (which will probably not be unless you have 2+ people in the plane). However, I've seen tickets for certain destinations where even flying just myself in the Aztec or 310 ends up being on par with commercial travel (although that is very rare).

It's hard to say that anything as a general rule is much better than anything else given the high variety of travel requirements for people. For items like trans-continental and trans-oceanic trips it becomes easier to say that commercial air travel is typically the most practical. For anything else, it truly depends on where you are and where you need to go. GA thrives for people who need to travel between areas poorly served by commercial aviation. As we start traveling as a family, I suspect that we will be doing minimal commercial air travel, simply because the need to purchase 3 tickets (not to mention the associated fees and hassles) suddenly starts to make the 310 look very attractive.
 
Your intuition is right on. It is not practical to use GA to transport yourself around. There might be a few isolated exceptions (maybe you live in Connecticut and want to go to Martha's Vineyard every weekend), but generally speaking it doesn't make sense--not in terms of time, nor expense, nor, it must be said, safety. And in any event to be able to do something like what you describe with any reliability, an instrument rating is necessary.

I don't know anything about buying but as you point out there are a lot of costs involved and I can't imagine it makes any sense unless you're quite rich and fly with great frequency.

Of course, there is one great reason to pursue a PPL--namely, flying is an extraordinary thing! It's a great hobby, deeply satisfying, and a lot of fun. It is expensive but manageable if you make a good wage. And it's cheaper once the rating's behind you.

My recommendation is to take a flight or two with an instructor. If you love it then pursue the license for the pure love of flying. If you don't--which is no problem and not uncommon--save the money, buy a Porsche, travel around Europe--whatever--try something else.
 
The transportation aspect of GA is the main reason I bought an airplane, but I have to be honest with myself, that I have a very particular set of circumstances that make it work out for me:


  • I hangar my airplane at a great airport 4 minutes from where I live, and for cheap.
  • The nearest airplane rental is 45 minutes away.
  • All of the most frequent trips in my airplane are not direct flights from the nearest commercial airport.
  • I don't have children.
  • My wife enjoys flying with me.
  • I fly more than 100 hours a year.

Every person who is interested in owning an airplane should honestly sit back and examine their personal situation and decide if it makes sense for them. For me, it's been a very enjoyable experience, but I will acknowledge that I have a unique set of circumstances and that owning an airplane probably wouldn't make sense for most people that I know.
 
Get the license. Along the way you'll figure out whether it will or won't probably be practical to fly where & when you want. You'll also learn about your local places' rental policies. For example -- the only place I have available to rent will let you take the plane for longer than a day. BUT, they charge a 3 hour daily minimum that makes it a deal breaker if you're going to have it sitting on the ramp for a few days.

The club I joined, on the other hand, is about $18 or so per hour less expensive for a nicer plane with GPS, and no daily minimum. They also have higher performance airplanes I can learn to fly and take for not much more than the local FBO charges for a Cessna 172.

So in my situation -- which may be completely different than yours, or may not -- renting is not practical or affordable for anything other than 1-2 day trips. The club is a much better setup. And if I want more eventually, I can look into a partnership on something bigger, faster, newer and/or more capable.

It is my goal to never have to fly commercial within the US. Will I be able to make that a reality? I don't know yet. Will it be more expensive? I'd say almost certainly. Worth it? You bet.
 
split said:
I have been planning to get my private Pilots license....its just something that I have always wanted to do. My goal is to free myself from the hassle of commercial airlines and the tyranny of the TSA. However, as I think down the road to the point that I have the license....what then? I could rent a plane or I could buy. In the case of rental, it does not seem practical for domestic travel. My understanding is that the rental cost is by the hour + fuel. So If I'm flying and staying in another state for a week, this would break the bank. To own, means I need a place to store the plane, and then there is the cost of maintenance, insurance and the cost of the plane itself. The other option is fractional ownership...which is possible, but I don't typically play well with others.

Am I missing something or is this the reality of the situation?
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That, depending on your travel needs can be perfect or impossible, the deciding points between are distance and money. Rental will not be an option unless you live in San Diego, I don't know another operation like Plus One Flyers, they make it possible, but not cheap.

To do what you want you need $50k a year disposable income and your trips need to be under 800 miles. If you need to fly longer trips you'll need $125k, that's without getting into 'fancy' equipment.
 
I think I've said this before but I'll say it again,

If money were no object I honestly think I'd buy a P-180. It has a roomy cabin, goes fast and doesn't burn too much gas. The best part is its single pilot, meaning I can just pack up the family and go. I don't have to worry about keeping another pilot on salary or worrying if he gets a runny nose or just doesnt 'feel' like flying.

I know the OP is pre Private and all, but we don't know his income and a $7.3M plane might work out great once he gets his multi and IR.
 
Henning said:
To do what you want you need $50k a year disposable income and your trips need to be under 800 miles. If you need to fly longer trips you'll need $125k, that's without getting into 'fancy' equipment.
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Oh, seriously? I fail to see how you could possibly make such a statement with a straight face, knowing nothing about the frequency, distance or duration of his trips.

The guy's stated mission wasn't "anywhere, any time, on a set schedule". What if he's talking about a few trips a year to see in-laws a couple hundred miles away? How about if he's the only one flying? Maybe he could meet his needs with a 152 or an Ercoupe. It would be a challenge to spend $50K a year that way. Not impossible, but a challenge.

I've figured what it would take for me to own an airplane outright and fly to fit my requirements. Trust me, it's nowhere near $50K. It's more than I'm willing to commit to right now, hence the flying club membership... but it's a stepping stone.
 
DaleB said:
Oh, seriously? I fail to see how you could possibly make such a statement with a straight face, knowing nothing about the frequency, distance or duration of his trips.

The guy's stated mission wasn't "anywhere, any time, on a set schedule". What if he's talking about a few trips a year to see in-laws a couple hundred miles away? How about if he's the only one flying? Maybe he could meet his needs with a 152 or an Ercoupe. It would be a challenge to spend $50K a year that way. Not impossible, but a challenge.

I've figured what it would take for me to own an airplane outright and fly to fit my requirements. Trust me, it's nowhere near $50K. It's more than I'm willing to commit to right now, hence the flying club membership... but it's a stepping stone.
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I'm guessing as to frequency but figuring twice a month. People who fly less aren't ones who typically consider becoming a pilot to avoid airlines and TSA.

A person who wants to fly as a business/travel tool who does 2 trips a month at those distances will require that kind of money to be able to stay off the airlines, figure 200+hrs a year at HP/GA speeds, it just ain't cheap to do. Clubs are great for people who fly local or not a whole lot. When you're going to be out of town with the plane 4-6 out of 14, that's looking for a partner deal. I've been working at avoiding the airlines over 20 yrs and I fly a lot, it takes a lot more money to 'avoid the airlines' for a person who travels on business than someone that flies a couple hours a week local and takes a trip to grandmas. For instance, an Ercoupe isn't in the equation because it's not practical business transport. With its speed and mission range, it's faster and cheaper in a car most of the time.
 
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Henning said:
I'm guessing as to frequency but figuring twice a month. People who fly less aren't ones who typically consider becoming a pilot to avoid airlines and TSA.
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I don't know how many people want to get a PPL solely to avoid TSA. I've never met one, but I'm sure it happens. I can say, however, that even though I only fly commercial a few times a year -- 3 or 4 at most now, though it used to be a lot more -- one of my goals is to get to the point where I never have to set foot on an airliner for domestic travel again.

I don't think the OP mentioned business travel, either. Most of my airline travel is for work, but I'd travel by air a lot more if I could do it without having to fly myself and my wife commercial.
 
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The OP state that he wanted to get a plane to avoid the airlines. To have anything even approaching that level of dispatchability one has to spend money in sufficient quantities that one could fly first class for the rest of one's life and come out well ahead.
 
One has to place a very high monetary value on one's time and freedom to make flying GA work out "by the numbers".

There's nothing at all wrong with doing so.

Most of the earlier advice is right on target. There are trips where GA will save time or over freedom/flexibility that other modes of transport won't. You have to decide if the cost is worth it.

For many GA flyers, there's a big element of passion involved. And passion does not bow to the rules of logic or the "numbers", or even the law, whether it's passion for flying or passion for another person. Be warned, if you find yourself flying and passionate about it, you'll no more be able to tell yourself "this is is crazy I shouldn't do this" than you'll be able to stop breathing.
 
Agree with Tim, and the others. It will be difficult to justify through anything rational, practical, or economically. However you just can't beat the view.
 
I actually figured out what it cost to run the airplane one day. The most valuable lesson I learned that day was to never do that again.
 
steingar said:
I actually figured out what it cost to run the airplane one day. The most valuable lesson I learned that day was to never do that again.
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And yet you still own it and fly it. That right there, my friend, says it all.

I don't ever expect flying myself to be the fastest AND cheapest way to get anywhere. I just have my own set of standards and requirements, and an airplane fits them pretty well. One big plus... flying. :)
 
And so? Most of that talk is just plain BS. You could have missed it too.

Rational decision making has never been based on the "you never knows" and never will. What you can determine, however, is the disproportionate and hugely benefecial relationship between full ownership and partial ownership insofar as costs and utilzation are concerned.

John221us said:
That is as good a reason as any for owning. Even with a club, you don't know what the last guy did on his flight or what he experienced. You might miss trends in performance, etc.
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That's the general theme of most newbs when they're still smitten with everything about aviation. OTOH, all the pilots who are leaving the activity or dramatically cutting back expressed all those same thoughts at one time in their career and aren't now nearly as ga-ga goo-goo about it.

What do you think might have happened along the way to alter their viewpoint? Wife didn't like it? Scared themselves once or twice? Cost was much greater than they anticipated and/or utility was much less? Nowhere to go other than hamburger runs? Perceived airplane capabilities proved to be much higher than actual? Fuel prices tripled? BTDT too many times?


DaleB said:
And yet you still own it and fly it. That right there, my friend, says it all.

I don't ever expect flying myself to be the fastest AND cheapest way to get anywhere. I just have my own set of standards and requirements, and an airplane fits them pretty well. One big plus... flying. :)
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I was smitten. Not quite as much anymore. It's scarier with the family in the 172. I just got my license so maybe I'm having that scared feeling like I did when I first started learning to fly.

But my goal has always been since I started training, to build a plane. That's my end goal...and to fly it whenever and wherever I want afterwards. I don't care if it takes me 10 years to build. I've got a nice long project ahead of me. I'll putz around a little in a rented plane and probably get around to getting my instrument too but building a flying machine is what's after my PPL right now. If I had lotsa money I'd learn to fly jets.

wabower said:
That's the general theme of most newbs when they're still smitten with everything about aviation. OTOH, all the pilots who are leaving the activity or dramatically cutting back expressed all those same thoughts at one time in their career and aren't now nearly as ga-ga goo-goo about it.

What do you think might have happened along the way to alter their viewpoint? Wife didn't like it? Scared themselves once or twice? Cost was much greater than they anticipated and/or utility was much less? Nowhere to go other than hamburger runs? Perceived airplane capabilities proved to be much higher than actual? Fuel prices tripled? BTDT too many times?
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Trying to justify the $ spent on anything you enjoy doing will drive you insane. Not sure if anyone's mentioned it here or not, but you can not leave out the approximately $8,000 it will cost to get your PL. Whether hunting, fishing, boating, etc. if you enjoy doing and can afford it - then enjoy it!
 
Original poster here...

I live in Texas. Texas is a big place and we live right in the middle. It takes forever to drive anywhere and I'm at an age were I don't like driving any more. I would like the option to jump in the plane to take a quick trip to Colorado, Oregon, Montana, Washington, California, Florida, BVI, or any other place. Once there I would rent a car. I don't want the pressure of knowing there is a plane at the airport with the meter running(rental)...that would wreck the trip. I'm not wealthy, but I can certainly afford my own used plane, like a Cessna 172. However, I would need to store it at the local airport since my current property does not have enough acres for its own runway and hanger. (perhaps in the future if the flying works out). The idea of paying for storage bothers me. I think of it like RVs. I'm always amazed that people buy RVs and then store them a storage facility for years and rarely take them out. Again, its like the meter is running. Ya, I can probably afford it, buts its the principle of it. I would rather pay for my own hanger on my property than pay a montly storage fee at a distance airport....unless the monthly cost was cheap for inside storage

As far as safety as mentioned earlier. You can bet that there have been commercial flights that you have been on that the pilots on-board had a scare. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

If things worked out, I would go for my instrument rating also.

Is there a network of clubs? How can I find out about local clubs?
Also, where is the best place to learn about local fractional ownership opportunities?
 
Just to reiterate what was said above, when you're on a trip with a rental airplane, the meter isn't running while it sits at the airport. The meter only runs (more or less) while the propeller is turning.

That said, many rental outfits have a daily minimum - e.g. if you have a daily minimum of 2 hours and you take the airplane for three days, you will have to pay for six hours of rental even if you actually flew less.
 
tiger said:
Just to reiterate what was said above, when you're on a trip with a rental airplane, the meter isn't running while it sits at the airport. The meter only runs (more or less) while the propeller is turning.

That said, many rental outfits have a daily minimum - e.g. if you have a daily minimum of 2 hours and you take the airplane for three days, you will have to pay for six hours of rental even if you actually flew less.
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Yes, I was thinking about the daily minimum. Plus there is just the courteous side. While I have the plane and it is sitting at a distant airport, no one else can use it.
 
split said:
Is there a network of clubs? How can I find out about local clubs? Also, where is the best place to learn about local fractional ownership opportunities?
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Posting in a new topic "Clubs in xxxx, TX" or "Want to own in xxxx,TX" will probably get you the answer to those questions. Of course going to your local airport will probably have fliers about both topics. Then there is the internet. Try typing "Your city name flying clubs" and you'll probably find your answer.
 
My local FBO has 2 C172's that rent for $109.00 per/hr wet. All they ask that if you take it for several days, to fly it at least 1hr per/day. If you don't, it's no big deal.
 
I'd like that deal. The FBO at my airport charges 3.5 hrs/day for a 172.

FlyingDeacon said:
My local FBO has 2 C172's that rent for $109.00 per/hr wet. All they ask that if you take it for several days, to fly it at least 1hr per/day. If you don't, it's no big deal.
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wabower said:
That's the general theme of most newbs when they're still smitten with everything about aviation. OTOH, all the pilots who are leaving the activity or dramatically cutting back expressed all those same thoughts at one time in their career and aren't now nearly as ga-ga goo-goo about it.

What do you think might have happened along the way to alter their viewpoint? Wife didn't like it? Scared themselves once or twice? Cost was much greater than they anticipated and/or utility was much less? Nowhere to go other than hamburger runs? Perceived airplane capabilities proved to be much higher than actual? Fuel prices tripled? BTDT too many times?
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Or they have ADD and were distracted by another shiny object... :rofl:

Henning said:
No, there is no organization of aircraft around the country.:(
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I believe that some of the Cirrus frax ownership organizations do allow access to aircraft in other parts of the country. Though I may have read the marketing material incorrectly before I trashed it. :D

IMHO, you need to evaluate your mission and "what makes sense".

It makes no sense (financially or operationally) to own/use "small GA" for East Coast - West Coast business travel. You'll have less pain letting the TSA grab your junk than sitting in a small plane for 14+ hours, and less pain to the wallet to get Global Entry so you can take a chance on avoiding some TSA tyrrany with PreCheck.

It makes all the sense in the world to consider GA if your travel takes you to remote locations - I lived in Cincinnati & owned rural property in Virginia. 2:30 each way in a GA Single Engine plane vs 4-5 hours via airline. Or a business trip that had me making 6-8 stops in a week between San Antonio and Washington.

The type of plane affects it, too. A CJ-II or (if it ever comes to market) a DJet is a different equation than a Cessna/Columbia 400 is a different equation from a C-182.
 
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