ppl training - plane buying - cost question

2Airtime2

2Airtime2

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee 180c
Hypothetical scenario:

Getting the ppl cert. where I'm going typically runs $7000. Buying a decent Piper Cherokee costs $25000. So getting the license 1st then buying a $25k plane is $32000.

What would the cost be to take about 3-5 lessons in the schools 172 then complete my training in my own $25k plane? Assume the bought plane is in current annual and needs nothing but fuel.


I have read that a fair number of people buy planes before getting their ppl and have said the check ride was pretty much stress free because of how comfortable they were with the plane. Also, hopefully, you wouldn't have lessons scrubbed due to plane availability.

Of course if I bought something (before getting my ppl) the owner/broker would have to take me up to make sure I like how the plane handles.


Thoughts on going this route and cost difference???
 
Don't forget to add insurance costs. Also check with the school and make sure they will train you in your aircraft.
 
It can be beneficial,if you can find a good instructor,who has availability.
 
Cost wise, many training aircraft rent for $100-110/hr wet (fuel included), and instructors are $45-60/hr. So let's call it $150/hr to make math easier.

The first part of your training is gaining the feel of the aircraft, basic maneuvers, and positive control (you make the aircraft do what you want versus it going where it wants). That's the first 4-8 hours and then the next are learning to land safely.

Learning to land has as part of normal some really hard landings that were either too much speed and driving it hard onto the surface, or flaring to high and stalling the aircraft feet above the runway instead of inches, resulting in a "bottom drops out from under you" feeling as you fall those feet and pranging 2300 pounds of machine and people on to the landing gear.

So would you rather be doing that on the landing gear of your airplane or the flight school's?

I suggest you wait until post solo to transition into your own aircraft.

Your purchase budget appears to be aircraft only. You need to expand this to cover

  • Cost of insurance (~$2500-3000/yr to start, this will drop as you gain hours)
  • Cost of inspections (pre-buy and annual)
  • Cost of repairs
  • Cost of fuel
  • Maintenance reserve (not uncommon that something very expensive needs attention in first year
  • Cost of storage. You just spent a huge wad of cash on a toy. You want to protect it, right?
  • And more...
All in all, make the airplane budget more like $50-55,000 and you'll be both in a very nice aircraft and be able to afford it.


An Motoflier has a good point about asking the school to train you in your aircraft. I know of a few local ones that charge extra for that. But I also know many independent instructors who don't.
 
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I bought a $25k Cherokee when I had about 10 hours. I never regretted it. That said, a $25k plane is likely to have a fair amount of catch up maintenance (mine did) and then there is standard maintenance, insurance, hangar/tie down, etc. go in with your eyes open. You probably won't save money by owning, but it is a lot more convenient and I always felt better, because I knew the plane and that I was the last one to have flown it.
 
John221us said:
... it is a lot more convenient and I always felt better, because I knew the plane and that I was the last one to have flown it.
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Which is priceless IMO.
 
2Airtime2 said:
Hypothetical scenario:

Getting the ppl cert. where I'm going typically runs $7000. Buying a decent Piper Cherokee costs $25000. So getting the license 1st then buying a $25k plane is $32000.

What would the cost be to take about 3-5 lessons in the schools 172 then complete my training in my own $25k plane? Assume the bought plane is in current annual and needs nothing but fuel.


I have read that a fair number of people buy planes before getting their ppl and have said the check ride was pretty much stress free because of how comfortable they were with the plane. Also, hopefully, you wouldn't have lessons scrubbed due to plane availability.

Of course if I bought something (before getting my ppl) the owner/broker would have to take me up to make sure I like how the plane handles.


Thoughts on going this route and cost difference???
Click to expand...

If you are planning on getting a plane because you have a use for a plane and that s the reason you are getting a license, it will save you some money. Buying a $25,000 plane has little chance of not needing money spent on it before the end of training. All planes handle pretty much the same, and in the $25k price bracket, you can't be picky about that or looks. There are three major factors in pricing a plane, airframe condition, engine time, and avionics package. For $25k you are going to have to discern on airframe condition because you only get one for that price, and airframe condition is the most important in cost and safety to have bad.

Buying a plane if you don't have a solid plan for the future that requires flying is not a wise idea in this market. You don't see planes at these prices because they're easy to sell.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
All in all, make the airplane budget more like $50-55,000 and you'll be both in a very nice aircraft and be able to afford it.
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I'm not sure how much sense this makes but I'll tell you my thought process on buying a $25k vs. a $50k plane.

A few yrs ago I wanted a '79 Z-28 (my 1st car was a '79 Camaro) for a project rebuild. I looked all around and found them in all conditions for all prices. Ignoring the pristine ones (I wanted a project) most were in similar condition yet the prices ranged from $1500 to $15000. I thought about it and determined they all needed about the same amount of work and money. So, the question was, start with a $6000 car and put $7000 into it or start with a $1700 car and put $7000 into it. The end result was going to be a nice car either way. I opted for the $8700 final result vs. the $13000.

I taught myself to weld and paint. I already knew engine assy.







It's hard for someone like me, with immense skills :D, to pay an extra $25k when I can easily turn a $20k plane into a $45k plane (so long as I find an experimental or a willing A&P).
 
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Owning a plane is pretty involving, worrisome if you are on a tight budget. If you rent and cant afford it this month, you just stop flying. If you own an airplane, you have to keep paying, just to keep it.

There are some other things too how owning your own plane interferes with instruction. Like who is going to stop you from flying it without your instructor? Its up to you to resist the temptation. With rental, ya cant. They wont rent to you without your instructor or his signoff.

I think its best to get your ticket in a rental, then reward yourself by buying a plane.

But different people are different. There are lots of people who have bought a plane and learned in their own plane! So its doable.
 
John221us said:
I bought a $25k Cherokee when I had about 10 hours. I never regretted it. That said, a $25k plane is likely to have a fair amount of catch up maintenance (mine did) and then there is standard maintenance, insurance, hangar/tie down, etc. go in with your eyes open. You probably won't save money by owning, but it is a lot more convenient and I always felt better, because I knew the plane and that I was the last one to have flown it.
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I waited until after the short Xcountry. Prior to that, i flew both the 172 and the warrior/cherokee to see which I liked better. Bought the cherokee, did the long XC and everything else, tok the checkride in it, still,have it. Solid IFR platform altho nothing glass. Would like a mooney but don't need it for the 1 or 2 long trips. Altho, if I had the Mooney, I might take more really long trips. 5 hours to OSH is much more appealing than 7-8 hours....
 
If you want a project, that is fine, but you'll want to go Experimental-Amateur Built. Working on certified airplanes is not like working on cars, a licensed mechanic has to sign off nearly everything. This isn't really the tricky part since you'll be able to find one to work with you for a reasonable price, and if you're good, you'll even get jobs from them. Parts are an expensive proposition, what should cost $2500 to overhaul an engine costs $25,000.

But the big thing is the down time. Either you want a project plane, or a plane to train in; you aren't training in it when you're working on it, and you won't recoupe your money you put into the plane. $25,000 planes are hardly worth doing major repairs on. It will cost $60k to turn a $25k plane into a $50k plane. That's why $25k planes exist.
 
As pointed out, airplane ownership rarely makes economic sense. The intangible benefits are priceless however.
 
2Airtime2 said:
It's hard for someone like me, with immense skills :D, to pay an extra $25k when I can easily turn a $20k plane into a $45k plane (so long as I find an experimental or a willing A&P).
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Very nice car! Well done!

While I appreciate your skills, the challenge with aircraft is that the analogy you're building isn't quite the same. It's already well established that any dollar you put into an aircraft won't be realized when you sell it. You're extremely lucky if you get 50¢ for every dollar spent.

So to take a $20k trainer into something that realizes a $45k sale price might take $45-50k real dollar investment on just the improvements, meaning you've spent $60-65k on an aircraft that takes a long time to sell due to upper level price, and when sold, is for significantly less than you have in it. That's one of the reasons that folks say to make a million dollars in the aviation industry is to start with five million.

Then you're going to run into the mindset of potential buyers that a 140-160hp trainer isn't worth spending that much money on when it's only going to perform as a 140-160hp aircraft, no matter how nice it looks on the outside or inside or panel. Folks ready to spend $45-50k are going to be wanting more aircraft than the Cherokees or the C150/C152's.

Rebuilding a classic car like you did, you went into it knowing that it was both desirable to you and desirable to someone else. And cars can always be like that, otherwise folks like you and Richard Rawlings of GMG wouldn't exist.

But if you want to spend

-------------------------------------------------

Let's go back to the original question scenario. You posed the question as doing your training AND obtaining/owning/operating a plane for less than $35,000.

My response was simply from my (short) experience to advise you're a little light on your budget. $8,500-9,500 is a more practical budget if you rent all the way through. And the decent PA28 Cherokee's are more in the upper 30's.

Plus as a future aircraft owner, you don't know what you don't know. So it is very likely you're going to find something that at first looks like a great deal, but then comes back to bite your bank account hard. Maybe you get lucky and that doesn't happen, but what if it does? You obviously have the skills as an auto mechanic and body shop tech, but not all of those skills translate to aircraft repair. So budgeting cash to have someone else do the work is smart.

-------------------------------------------------

My advice? Go train in a rented aircraft. Get your PPL. Gain more experience. Join your local EAA chapter and find folks who are willing to share their experience in building aircraft. Then go find yourself the right EAB aircraft (Such as the Vans RV series) and use your skills to build yourself a $100k aircraft that you're extremely proud to own and operate.
 
I loved my Cherokee (sold it last year to upgrade). I paid $25k, but the guy I hired to do the pre-buy did a poor job and it cost me that again in catch up over the next couple of years. Once I had it caught up, it wasn't too expensive, but I never deferred anything and it was a reliable and fun plane to fly. I really liked being able to practice when I wanted, without having to find a time slot on a rental. If you can't follow the rules laid out by your instructor, you probably shouldn't be flying. I kept the plane for four years and it worked well. The Cherokee is a two plus two, which means you can fly two people easily and some luggage or three people (tight) and leave some fuel behind. It wasn't super fast, but could do 115 true. It didn't climb well (my biggest issue, as my Dad lives at 6,000 feet), but Murphey (above) live in Colorado and gets by. You just have to watch the density altitude and do the math.
 
Doing flight lessons in your own plane is a great way to go, but a few things to keep in mind:

Rental planes have to fix their own squawks. You will be responsible for the cost of any repairs in your plane.

Rental planes also include the price of hangars/tie downs and insurance. Those are extra costs you will have.

You will probably beat the he!! out of the plane for the first several hours of training. I'd rather beat up a rental than my personal plane.

Flight school planes are geared for students, and they know what planes they want to have. You may pick up a 25K cherokee but then realize you want a faster, larger plane later. IMO, it would be a hassle to sell my plane and go through the buying process again. Then again, some people love it.

I used my own plane for my instrument training, and it definitely worked out well. I feel so comfortable in my mooney now. I also knew my plane was waiting for me any time I wanted it. I could leave headsets, charts, etc. in it, and I knew they would be there when I returned.
 
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Very good advice on here. You can buy a very nice Cherokee 140 for the mid 20's. But as everyone else mentioned, you should have at least a $10,000 reserve for gotchas. The 140's are pretty straightforward, easy to insure, relatively cheap to fly and maintain(remember "relative" in aviation can still be a lot of dollars), and have a decent resale market.
But, at best you really only have a 2 place airplane with full fuel. Plan on spending in the low to mid 30's for an older 172 with a mid time engine and about the same performance as a 140.
Both Henning and Dancing with Czars had some great advice for first time buyers. Definitely learn how to land in someone elses plane first...:)
 
To get your training done for less than $35k, buy a $15,000 Cessna 150 with around 1500 hours on the engine and a fresh annual from the seller. Try to get one that has an Glide Slope receiver and an ADF in it, then fly your balls of the first year and get your Private and Instrument Rating done before the annual expires. During this time put as little money into the plane as possible. At the end of the first year, get the annual inspection done and when you have the discrepancy list along with other maintenance costs it's in need of, you can decide whether to go ahead and get it done, or scrap the plane at that time. Then you just repeat the process until you want to sell the plane for something better at which time it's pretty easy to get $15k for a flying C-150, or you hit a repair bill that says "time to scrap it" at which point you may make a profit on the salvage parts, or sell it to a salvage dealer.
 
Mark Kelmar said:
Both Henning and Dancing with Czars..
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:mad2: ARRRRGH!!!!!! :mad2:

AggieMike is the screen name. The stuff above is just window dressing we can change at anytime to introduce levity, humor, and general silliness.
 
2Airtime2 said:
It's hard for someone like me, with immense skills :D, to pay an extra $25k when I can easily turn a $20k plane into a $45k plane (so long as I find an experimental or a willing A&P).
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What you are failing to see is in the world of airplanes your "immense" skills don't mean **** without an A&P certificate. Nobody cares if you know how or not and you are not allowed to preform you're own repairs. You are correct in assuming this is going to cause you stress everytime you cut a check.

I'm right with you, I have been wrenching since I could chew on the wrenches and swallow sockets (true story lol). I have been very fortunate to have been surrounded by extremely talented craftsman growing up. The options are go experimental, get an A&P certificate, find an A&P willing to work with you and sign off your work.
 
AggieMike88 said:
:mad2: ARRRRGH!!!!!! :mad2:

AggieMike is the screen name. The stuff above is just window dressing we can change at anytime to introduce levity, humor, and general silliness.
Click to expand...
And you can't even see the display name on Tapatalk.
 
MotoFlier said:
What you are failing to see is in the world of airplanes your "immense" skills don't mean **** without an A&P certificate. Nobody cares if you know how or not and you are not allowed to preform you're own repairs. You are correct in assuming this is going to cause you stress everytime you cut a check.

I'm right with you, I have been wrenching since I could chew on the wrenches and swallow sockets (true story lol). I have been very fortunate to have been surrounded by extremely talented craftsman growing up. The options are go experimental, get an A&P certificate, find an A&P willing to work with you and sign off your work.
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This is not totally true. You may certainly perform all of your own repairs under the supervision of an A&P, you may even work as an aircraft mechanic (it's one of the routes to earn your A&P), you just can't sign off the return to service except for the listed owner/pilot maintenance items. There were many times when I pulled up somewhere, fixed my plane, and got it signed off at a very low cost. The guy signing off your work definitely cares about your skills. You pull a tool box with well worn Snap On tools and the maintenance manual out of your plane and shops are much more friendly about accommodating you. I've ended up making money stopping to fix my plane by working on another job for the shop they needed help with. If you know what you are doing, they don't really care about the paper, they have that covered.
 
Henning said:
This is not totally true. You may certainly perform all of your own repairs under the supervision of an A&P, you may even work as an aircraft mechanic (it's one of the routes to earn your A&P), you just can't sign off the return to service except for the listed owner/pilot maintenance items. There were many times when I pulled up somewhere, fixed my plane, and got it signed off at a very low cost. The guy signing off your work definitely cares about your skills. You pull a tool box with well worn Snap On tools and the maintenance manual out of your plane and shops are much more friendly about accommodating you. I've ended up making money stopping to fix my plane by working on another job for the shop they needed help with. If you know what you are doing, they don't really care about the paper, they have that covered.
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Come on Henning you know what I was saying.
 
MotoFlier said:
Come on Henning you know what I was saying.
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Yeah, and a lot of people think that, but the reality is it is not true, and anyone with mechanic skills can greatly reduce their cost of maintenance providing their own labor, however they are still stuck with the parts costs. It adds a step to the process, but that step bears opportunity as well. The only reason I could afford to own my Travelair at 60hrs is because I was hanging around in the shop where the flight school I trained at was and was picking the owner's brain while he was working on a plane. I've been a working mechanic since I was a kid, fixing cars before I could drive them. So as we're talking I stick my hand where I know a hand will be useful, and eventually he looks over at me and asks, "You want a job here?" So I took him up on it.
 
I bought a 172 for 25000 when I was ready to start. It had a Mogas stc which saved me bunch. During training I figured 18$ per hour for gas. It was always available whenever I wanted to fly, which was almost everyday. Other than oil changes all I had to replace was generater and at very end battery. Oh I did replace elt to eliminate some radio noise I was getting. Had to do ifr cert at least once for couple hundred. Annuals were around 1000$. Insurance at beginning was around 800 and 400 when I sold it. Owned for about 3 years. So 3000 for annuals maybe another 3000$ total for repairs. Hanger was around 2000$ per year, so $6000 plus maybe 2000$ for insurance. Probably flew around 800 hrs while I owned. Sold it for 25000$ when I bought another. Guess that cost me around 40$ per hour to fly. Also like was said, I watched other people who rented and got there private. Half were never seen again after they got it. Renters flew maybe 2 or 3 times a week. I sometimes flew twice a day.
 
Yep, once you own the plane, the incremental costs of flying go down with more use. It used to be figured that at 100hrs a year, owning beat renting, but with the low purchase prices and high rental costs these days, I suspect unless base at a very high rent airport, the number may be lower now.
 
Henning said:
Yep, once you own the plane, the incremental costs of flying go down with more use. It used to be figured that at 100hrs a year, owning beat renting, but with the low purchase prices and high rental costs these days, I suspect unless base at a very high rent airport, the number may be lower now.
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And you can include the intangible things like dispatchability. Aka, no one else has the aircraft scheduled at the time you want to use it. That's worth a few dollars somewhere.
 
My advice is wait until you pass your checkride and have your ticket then go fly different ones and get time to find the right plane. I'm glad that I waited until I passed my ride and flew different ones.
 
Laughing that POA can quickly take a $25k plane and make it a $50k plane.


To the OP, yes, if you find a good plane, buy a $25k Cherokee, get your lessons, get your license, and enjoy it.

Sell it for $25k when you outgrow it. You will be a better pilot, have more fun, and come out ok on finances.

Go for it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
:mad2: ARRRRGH!!!!!! :mad2:

AggieMike is the screen name. The stuff above is just window dressing we can change at anytime to introduce levity, humor, and general silliness.
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Oops,,my bad, duly noted..:)
 
But Scott, everybody, well almost everybody, wants a faster, bigger, badder plane than they currently have. I understand what your saying but there isn't much at risk on low cost plane. In my case I saved about 80$ per hour over renting. I liked flying with my instructor who became a good friend and still is. That stretched my time to finish up some.
 
John221us said:
I loved my Cherokee (sold it last year to upgrade). I paid $25k, but the guy I hired to do the pre-buy did a poor job and it cost me that again in catch up over the next couple of years.
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Prebuys are far harder than prospective buyers think they are. They think that a mechanic can see everything in the airplane in four hours or less, and some mechanics don't spend any more time than that on annuals.

And so we get those airplanes in our shop soon after the guy buys it and start finding expensive neglect everywhere. Corrosion. Worn cables. Seized pulleys. Cracks. Old hoses and connections. Ratty wiring. So much of it is hidden behind headliners and interior panels that are a pain to remove and replace, but unless the mechanic takes those off, some critically worn stuff goes unaddressed until it becomes lethally dangerous or really, really expensive to fix. Imagine an aluminum fuel line that has been chafing on the edge of a hole in a bulkhead for 40 years, and that thin tube wall is worn 80% of the way through. Does that mean that it has another ten years? Nope. The last bit fractures suddenly and now there's fuel everywhere. Inside the airplane. Or a high-pressure hydraulic line worn the same way. Same aluminum tubing. There's a reason that AC43.13-1B sets a 10% wall thickness wear limit on such tubing, and NO wear on any bend.

Most students that buy airplanes lose money on them, and soon decide to buy something bigger anyway, or they lose so much that they leave aviation. Better to get that ticket first, ride or fly a few different types, and take your time selecting an airplane. Remember that an airplane is for sale because the owner usually doesn't want it anymore, sometimes because it needs a lot of work. Once in a while it's a divorce or medical that forces the sale of a nice, well-kept airplane.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And you can include the intangible things like dispatchability. Aka, no one else has the aircraft scheduled at the time you want to use it. That's worth a few dollars somewhere.
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The intangibles are what make owning worthwhile even at 20hrs a year. My favorite intangible was parking the plane at the end of a marathon 14hr day, hanging my headset on the yoke and walking away from the whole mess until tomorrow or the next day.
 
MotoFlier said:
What you are failing to see is in the world of airplanes your "immense" skills don't mean **** without an A&P certificate. Nobody cares if you know how or not and you are not allowed to preform you're own repairs. You are correct in assuming this is going to cause you stress everytime you cut a check.



I'm right with you, I have been wrenching since I could chew on the wrenches and swallow sockets (true story lol). I have been very fortunate to have been surrounded by extremely talented craftsman growing up. The options are go experimental, get an A&P certificate, find an A&P willing to work with you and sign off your work.
Click to expand...


I am not whining. I should have caught some of the stuff with a simple log book review myself. He did miss some stuff he should have caught, but I didn't know the questions I should have asked. I am better informed now, which is why I am still looking for my next plane a year later and have walked away from two prospects during pre-buy and many more with just a log book review. Buying old planes is not easy. Many people who own $25k airplanes don't/can't keep up with them, so you are going to need to catch them up.
 
John221us said:
I am not whining. I should have caught some of the stuff with a simple log book review myself. He did miss some stuff he should have caught, but I didn't know the questions I should have asked. I am better informed now, which is why I am still looking for my next plane a year later and have walked away from two prospects during pre-buy and many more with just a log book review. Buying old planes is not easy. Many people who own $25k airplanes don't/can't keep up with them, so you are going to need to catch them up.
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I don't think you ment to quote me?
 
Blueangel said:
My advice is wait until you pass your checkride and have your ticket then go fly different ones and get time to find the right plane. I'm glad that I waited until I passed my ride and flew different ones.
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That.

As for the cost of the plane, you can get some sweet aircraft for that 25-30k range, if you put some elbow grease in and aren't someone who is easily taken for a ride, things like paint and interior can be done for not too much.

I wouldn't touch many 50k aircraft, that area is a little more dangerous, many folks slap some paint and interior on said 25k aircraft and presto, now it's a 50k airplane lol. Also some higher end stuff in that price range which was best to snot.

I think the good buys are under 30k or over 80k, most the stuff in between is often crap or overpriced.


Still, get your PPL, doing it in a trainer or your own plane ain't going to make a difference in your check ride, then log some hours renting stuff, hang around the local AP, hang out around some of the aircraft owners at the field, after that decide what you want as far as buying your own plane goes.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Laughing that POA can quickly take a $25k plane and make it a $50k plane.
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At least we showed some restraint and didn't immediately suggest a Bonanza G35, A36, or King Air.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The first part of your training is gaining the feel of the aircraft, basic maneuvers, and positive control (you make the aircraft do what you want versus it going where it wants). That's the first 4-8 hours and then the next are learning to land safely.

Learning to land has as part of normal some really hard landings that were either too much speed and driving it hard onto the surface, or flaring to high and stalling the aircraft feet above the runway instead of inches, resulting in a "bottom drops out from under you" feeling as you fall those feet and pranging 2300 pounds of machine and people on to the landing gear.

So would you rather be doing that on the landing gear of your airplane or the flight school's?
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Or buy something that is overbuilt and can handle it. Take a look at a Socata Tampico. It is way overbuilt, especially the landing gear.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Or buy something that is overbuilt and can handle it. Take a look at a Socata Tampico. It is way overbuilt, especially the landing gear.
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I'm sitting here thinking of of 6PC and his early flying days, and chuckling at the image. He and his dad got their money's worth out of that aircraft.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Or buy something that is overbuilt and can handle it. Take a look at a Socata Tampico. It is way overbuilt, especially the landing gear.
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The Cherokee in the original post is overbuilt. It likely survived 1000's of landings as a trainer in the earlier years.
 
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