PPL training in a Arrow

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Not saying it can't be done but starting a pilot out with zero hours in a Piper Arrow does not sound like a good idea. Insurance wise he would not be able to solo it till he has 100 tt and 25 retract or 10 hours in type. The idea is to bounce back in forth in the Arrow and a Piper 140 that he could solo. I think the idea is kind of half baked and not practical.
 
Don't seem all that practical. But I could see doing it if you didn't care about getting your PPL in minimum hours. If your piggy bank says cool, go for it, why not?
 
You only need insurance if you crash. Lol

Insurance is probably the biggest scam we all fall for every day. That said, I won't fly a plane if I'm/it's not covered. I'm a good sheep.
 
Hmmm, which flavor of arrow?

Butt height is the same so learning to land the arrow and then jumping in the 140 for solo work and check ride shouldn’t be a difficult transition. It’d be best if the arrow was a Hershey.
 
Is the pilot planning on buying an arrow after training? If that will be what he primarily flies after becoming a private pilot then it makes sense to train in one to prepare.
 
A bit much to take on as a student pilot, learning all there is to know about two planes and the complexity of an Arrow, for a student. That being said, if the person insisted upon it I 'd give it a go.
 
Absolutely can be done. Might take a little longer than learning in a 152.
 
brien23 said:
Not saying it can't be done but starting a pilot out with zero hours in a Piper Arrow does not sound like a good idea. Insurance wise he would not be able to solo it till he has 100 tt and 25 retract or 10 hours in type. The idea is to bounce back in forth in the Arrow and a Piper 140 that he could solo. I think the idea is kind of half baked and not practical.
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You consistently start threads declaring GA is dying. Here you have somebody looking to learn and help keep GA going, yet you crap all over that. What is your angle?
 
rsleeds said:
You consistently start threads declaring GA is dying. Here you have somebody looking to learn and help keep GA going, yet you crap all over that. What is your angle?
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He's just discussing it, I don't see him crapping on it. Just asking opinions of others. Easy man.
 
I don't understand what the rush is with some people. I learned in a Champ, C-172 and then Archer 3. Enjoy the journey
 
mscard88 said:
He's just discussing it, I don't see him crapping on it. Just asking opinions of others. Easy man.
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Context. Anyone else it would have been a discussion. With Brien, it’s bashing and negativity. Of course, that fits this place pretty well.
 
rsleeds said:
Context. Anyone else it would have been a discussion. With Brien, it’s bashing and negativity. Of course, that fits this place pretty well.
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Guess I'm missing something. :dunno:

Is he a CFI?
 
What if. It's just a what if, beyond ridiculous, BUT. Could it be done to get your Private, Commercial, Instrument and Multi all at once. Ya show up to the Examiner with a single and a twin ready to go, writtens in hand. You ain't never flown with passengers. All your 90 day type and solo endorsements have been kept current. Are there any FAR whatever point whatevers that prevent it? Lets make it real fun. Ya show up with a PC12 and say a C310. Yeah, yeah theres the insurance thing, keep that out of it. Just the FARs
 
mscard88 said:
Guess I'm missing something. :dunno:

Is he a CFI?
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He is an A&P. He didn’t ask for any one else’s input or discussion. As per his usual MO, he makes a fairly negative statement and then he disappears from the thread with no further input or response to questions posed of him. Thread after thread of this from him.

No big deal, just a waste of the bandwidth.
 
rsleeds said:
He is an A&P. He didn’t ask for any one else’s input or discussion. As per his usual MO, he makes a fairly negative statement and then he disappears from the thread with no further input or response to questions posed of him. Thread after thread of this from him.

No big deal, just a waste of the bandwidth.
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No worries, I don't have any experience with his posts so I didn't know.
 
I say - go for it! Flew different variety when I was primary then instriment training. J-3,152,172,172RG,C210. Aviation is only as dead as we want it to be, as far as getting as much dual time in as many a/c's. Funny thing, miss the J-3 as much as the 210...
 
If that's going to be the plane your going to fly,then why not train in it and start building complex time from the start?
 
mscard88 said:
A bit much to take on as a student pilot, learning all there is to know about two planes and the complexity of an Arrow, for a student. That being said, if the person insisted upon it I 'd give it a go.
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A lot on pilots start in something a lot more complex than an Arrow. Granted those are within very strict and regimented training programs, and being a “student” is the full time job.
 
BillTIZ said:
A lot on pilots start in something a lot more complex than an Arrow. Granted those are within very strict and regimented training programs, and being a “student” is the full time job.
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Oh definitely, not saying it cannot be done. Like you stated, formal programs like the military and college
programs is one thing, but a student pilot training on two airplanes, although similar, and bouncing back and forth between the two could be too much for some. But others can handle it too without difficulty, one way to find out.
 
I bounce my students between an SGS 2-33 for dual and an SGS 1-26 for solo work all the time. 1-26 is a little sportier in handling, seat is a lot lower, basic speeds and L/d are close to the same.

I’ll agree that the gear is fixed and no difference in engine management as comparing the Arrow and the 140.
That would the the complexity difference for the Airplane Student.

As to insurance, anything can be resolved with enough $$$.
 
It’s an Arrow for Christ’s sake. It barely qualifies as Complex. I got my complex endorsement in one shortly after getting my PPL and t took like 2 or 3 hours transition time.

Also, I call BS on your insurance “requirements.” I got insurance that covered me In An Arrow with less than 100 hours.

Again - it is a PA28. You’re not talking a 200+ knot complex turbine.
 
luvflyin said:
What if. It's just a what if, beyond ridiculous, BUT. Could it be done to get your Private, Commercial, Instrument and Multi all at once. Ya show up to the Examiner with a single and a twin ready to go, writtens in hand. You ain't never flown with passengers. All your 90 day type and solo endorsements have been kept current. Are there any FAR whatever point whatevers that prevent it? Lets make it real fun. Ya show up with a PC12 and say a C310. Yeah, yeah theres the insurance thing, keep that out of it. Just the FARs
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The commercial requirements include solo night takeoffs and landings, which a student pilot cannot do. But I think that you could get your private and instrument together, in a twin so your initial rating is AMEL. It would just be really tedious trying to get 50 hours of PIC cross country time if you need an instructor to sign off on all your solo cross country flights (or really boring getting the repeated solo cross country sign off and then flying the same trip for 50 hours).

On the original topic, the Arrow isn’t such a big deal and it’s not that hard to get insured in one. I think it’s fine if the student is up to the task. For some students, a 172 is too complex. For others, a PC-12 is not too complex. The Arrow is somewhere in between.
 
An Arrow's landing gear is not designed to take the pounding that students will impose on it.
 
mscard88 said:
A bit much to take on as a student pilot, learning all there is to know about two planes and the complexity of an Arrow, for a student. That being said, if the person insisted upon it I 'd give it a go.
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Air Force pilots used to do their primary training in multi-engine jets (T-37s). Nowadays both Navy and AF pilots start out in complex turboprops.

It is certainly easier to get to the PPL check ride in a non-complex airplane, but starting out in an Arrow is not a huge deal.

But, the question I would ask is WHY? What do they hope to gain by starting out in an Arrow? And why intentionally switch airplane types during primary training (OP mentioned switching back and forth between and Arrow and Cherokee 140)? That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense unless the flight school is trying to milk the student for money. Reality is that it will take the student longer to get to the PPL check ride that way.

Like Fryfly said earlier, if the student wants to buy an Arrow or some other complex airplane right off the bat, then it makes some sense to start learning and building time in the airplane right off the bat. But the comment about swapping between airplanes makes it sound like that isn't the case.
 
I'm sure the Arrow would work fine for flight training.

I had my private license for less than a year and 65 total hours (19 yrs old) when my brother suggested we buy a used '63 Cessna 310 that a retired acquaintance of his was selling fairly cheap. My brother had more flight time, probably totaling around 100 hours. We bought the plane, trained for our multi-engine ratings in it, and flew it around Alaska for about 3 years before deciding there were better airplane choices for Alaska that were much less expensive to maintain and buy fuel for. We did love that airplane, though.

Neither of us had instrument ratings then. Didn't spend much time worrying about insurance, either. Youth and stupidity, I suppose. I am much more risk-averse these days.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Air Force pilots used to do their primary training in multi-engine jets (T-37s). Nowadays both Navy and AF pilots start out in complex turboprops.
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Well AF pilots get at least 23 hours in a DA-20 or more in a SR-20 if they are academy peeps. It’s fun to watch all the little plastic bugs bouncing out to the runway at PUB.
 
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AF pilots used to be screened in T41s (C172) before moving on to T37s and T38s. Now they use the T6 Turboprop.
 
Fearless Tower said:
And why intentionally switch airplane types during primary training (OP mentioned switching back and forth between and Arrow and Cherokee 140)? That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense unless the flight school is trying to milk the student for money.
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I believe the OP stated that the Arrow would be for dual only and the 140 for dual and solo.

Not saying it can't be done but starting a pilot out with zero hours in a Piper Arrow does not sound like a good idea. Insurance wise he would not be able to solo it till he has 100 tt and 25 retract or 10 hours in type. The idea is to bounce back in forth in the Arrow and a Piper 140 that he could solo. I think the idea is kind of half baked and not practical.
 
We're all focused on complexity, but if you had to guess which is 'harder' to fly .... Arrow or J-3, which would you say?
 
I had two students who co-owned an Arrow. Both needed considerable extra time to solo. I did not finish them when they decided it wasn't a big deal that the three green gear down lights didn't work.
 
An Arrow isn't an ideal trainer, but "bouncing back and forth" between airplanes sounds like a terrible idea. Stick with one.
 
I worked with a student to get his private pilot certificate in an A36 bonanza that he owned. The insurance premium for the first year was a bit stiff but tolerable and there were no ridiculous hour restrictions prior to solo. He soloed maybe a few hours later than the average 152 student solos, but nowhere near the 100 hour mark. If I remember right I think he had somewhere around 50-55 hours when he took the checkride and passed easily.

An Arrow should be even easier to train a student from hour zero in.
 
Sounds like a great idea. I think it is a good ideal to be trained in a plane that you will be flying for awhile and every hour will be with a flight instructor in the more complex plane. An Arrow has the performance and range to become a "final" plane, if one wants.
You would have to have 25 hours with an instructor before solo based on insurance requirements.
I would not bounce back and forth, but just stick with the Arrow. Much less likely not to forget to put the landing gear down by accident and much easier and safer to remember to do things only one way first.
I think it is better to learn in a retractable and with a constant speed propeller plane first, but that is a matter of personal opinion.
 
There was a flight school in Farmington, NM that I believe used Bonanzas for primary training.
 
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