PPL Privileges and Carrying of Passengers

I'm nominating this thread for "most ridiculous POA argument"...and on POA, that is saying something!

After reading some of the off-the-wall opinions of this thread, I think I'm going to have to turn myself in to the FAA, for paying myself to fly. Everytime I fly, I put money into an account for maintenance and an engine rebuild. I almost always fly with passengers. Obviously, I'm paying myself to fly these passenger, therefore I'm receiving compensation. Not only that, my passengers like that I fly them, thereby creating good will. Then there's the fact that I'm building hours!!! The horror!!!
 
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:

Similar problems created by most attempts to pre-regulate behavior, rather just dealing with the consequences of bad actors after they do something bad. The world is a complex place - very difficult or probably impossible to write a set of regulations that pre-decides everything in advance.
 
I'm nominating this thread for "most ridiculous POA argument"...and on POA, that is saying something!

I think it’s pretty typical, go read some VFR cloud clearance threads. A couple others come to mind as well.
 
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:
:thumbsup::thumbsup:



Probably because POA has led him to think that the FAA will be on site to interrogate him about the purpose of the trip.
Good to see you back @Cooter. The only way there would be an issue is if the flight goes south. Roll the dice..:)
 
now,, anytime, i fly my plane, alone, just for the fun of it,,,
im not going to smile or enjoy it in any way.
i wouldnt want to be accused of compensating my self!

Well if you put a towel down first there won't be any evidence....

But seriously, if you break down the all in cost for an hour of flying your own plane on about 80 hours a year, that guy could pay all the gas, and take you to Del Frisco's, and I bet your CPA could still make the case monetarily that you paid for more than half the flight. Gas is not the only price you have to factor in here.
 
Well if you put a towel down first there won't be any evidence....

But seriously, if you break down the all in cost for an hour of flying your own plane on about 80 hours a year, that guy could pay all the gas, and take you to Del Frisco's, and I bet your CPA could still make the case monetarily that you paid for more than half the flight. Gas is not the only price you have to factor in here.
True, but it is only fuel and oil that are involved in these scenarios. Direct operating costs.
 
In regards to flight time as compensation, that only comes into play if someone else is paying for the plane and you are flying it for them for "free" but logging the hours. In this case, the flight time is your compensation as someone else is paying for it and the flight is for their benefit. If you pay for all of the flight costs yourself even if the flight is at the bequest and benefit of another person, you are not receiving compensation in the form of flight time as you yourself are providing the flight time.
 
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:
To add to my previous reply, I’d like to meet the guy(s) who wrote these regulations. He or she needs a reality check.

Anyway I think we’ve covered this subject from every angle.

The conclusion is...do as you wish and don’t post about it on the internet, because whatever you do is your own prerogative. No one else’s!
 
In regards to flight time as compensation, that only comes into play if someone else is paying for the plane and you are flying it for them for "free" but logging the hours. In this case, the flight time is your compensation as someone else is paying for it and the flight is for their benefit. If you pay for all of the flight costs yourself even if the flight is at the bequest and benefit of another person, you are not receiving compensation in the form of flight time as you yourself are providing the flight time.
but what if they pay for your rental car, room, and food for the weekend?
 
I stand by what I said initially....the FAA does consider flight time to be compensation. As a practical matter, however, this kind of trip takes place every day and no one really cares.

It's nice that Bob said that, but that isn't what the FAA said. Flight time CAN become compensation, but is not always compensation...if it were, then every private pilot flying anywhere would be compensating themselves with flight time and would always be in violation.

Great respect for you and I love your book "Say it again", but you're not on target here.
 
True, but it is only fuel and oil that are involved in these scenarios. Direct operating costs.

I was just pointing out the insanity of the whole deal. This flight is obviously costing this guy money, he isn't making anything. He is helping out a friend and spending time with him. What if the other guy brings his wife along? Then its only 1/3rd. What if she is pregnant? Is it 1/4 then?! Or does she have to give birth during the flight? Anytime during the flight, or does it have to be before the half way point? 1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester? Gestational Viability? This is an important one...Everyone keeps saying that flying time can be considered compensation. But what if he doesn't log it? If it isn't used for recency of experience, or towards the furtherance of another rating/endorsement, is it considered compensation. Because I don't know anyone down here in Texas that would consider flying a 140 in the summer heat who isn't trying to build time a compensation of any sort. What if he buys him dinner? Does that necessarily mean it was related to that flight? What if they go out to dinner all the time and take turns paying? What if when they were having dinner the OP mentioned that he was wanting to go to (insert city) sometime soon, then his friend said,well lets go Friday, I have a business meeting that day, and we can kill two birds with one stone. What if the friend said it first, and then the OP said, ya know I was just about to say I have been wanting to go up there to go eat at some old restaurant I haven't been to in years. Does that change the idea of common purpose. You could write a book about this stuff and you still wouldn't have a clear answer.
 
"flight time = compensation" caused a lot of grief for towpilots and glider clubs. I can't remember all the details, some of the other glider guys here might. There was a letter, I think it was from a FSDO, that said a tow pilot must be commercial because he, or she, can log the flight time. This put a lot of strain on glider clubs to find tow pilots. Eventually, SSA got a ruling from the chief counsel that said, at least for tow pilots, that a PP CAN tow and log time. And since a PP tow pilot does not carry passengers for hire, he can get paid.

I'll try to find a copy of both documents.
 
61.69 sez a private pilot may tow.
61.113 G sez a private pilot may tow.
Yeah, but there was a FAQ letter from someone within FAA that said otherwise (the author was NOT the chief counsel)...or said a pp couldn't log the time or something. I remember getting into quite an argument about it with another towpilot. I'm still working on looking that up.
 
...I stand by what I said initially....the FAA does consider flight time to be compensation. As a practical matter, however, this kind of trip takes place every day and no one really cares.

(If you are skating close to the edge of a regulation, do not ask questions in an open forum.)

The OP is not skating on the edge of anything. Take a look at the Harrington interpretation, which was cited in the article that you referenced. That interpretation states "If these pilots are not paying the costs of operating the aircraft while ferrying the aircraft then the building up of flight time would be considered compensation." [emphasis added]
 

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  • Harrington - (1997) legal interpretation.pdf
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I am saying you are reading too much into what good will treated as compensation is, even as applied by the FAA..

You are still misinterpteting my post. I never described what good will treated as compensation "is" or when it is applied or how it is applied, only how it "could" be applied. Could--the same word you emphasized in your other post yet seemed to miss when I used it.
 
You are still misinterpteting my post. I never described what good will treated as compensation "is" or when it is applied or how it is applied, only how it "could" be applied. Could--the same word you emphasized in your other post yet seemed to miss when I used it.
There are realistic "coulds" and some which seem a bit paranoid. It was probably misinterpretation by me and some others, but you appeared to equate flight time with compensation regardless of the existence or nonexistence of value being given to the pilot by the recipient of the flight service in exchange for the service, and to equate the concept of business goodwill with being a friend.

My mistake. Sorry.

To be clear, I'll go out on a limb to say a pilot taking a friend somewhere the friend wants to go with the pilot paying for everything and with no reasonable purpose to obtain a business advantage in exchange does not become a compensated flight because the passenger likes the pilot more and the pilot logs the flight time.

"Could" It? I guess, in the Mike Myers sense.
 
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The OP is not skating on the edge of anything. Take a look at the Harrington interpretation, which was cited in the article that you referenced. That interpretation states "If these pilots are not paying the costs of operating the aircraft while ferrying the aircraft then the building up of flight time would be considered compensation." [emphasis added]
Bullseye.
 
my friend wanted me to fly him down to Florida to meet with another friend and return the next day. I told him to take Allegent and rent a car.....
 
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my friend wanted me to fly him down to Florida to meet with another friend and return the next day. I told him to take Allegent and rent a car.....
Well, you definitely solved the problem of your friend wanting you to fly him anywhere. If someone told me to take Allegiant, I wouldn't consider him a friend any longer.
 
I had an acquaintance who was going to be working in Dallas for a 6-month stint. He called and said he had a mission for me. He wanted me to fly his wife to Dallas every Friday night after I got off work, then come back to Dallas Sunday evening and pick her up around 8 pm. For SIX MONTHS! He said he would pay all my expenses. He is a private pilot, he knows I'm a private pilot. He mentioned that I would be building hours. (Like I care, I've got plenty of hours) I'm in Houston. Southwest airlines has a flight every freakin' 30 minutes! This was wrong on so many levels. He seriously didn't think there was a legal problem. He also didn't think it was EXTREMELY PRESUMPTUOUS. Don't get me wrong - I love to help a buddy out in a time of need. If a friend calls me in desperation because his daughter is about to deliver his first grandchild up in Dallas, and his plane won't start, my response would be "clear prop!" There would be no money exchanged. But this guy? I thought it was a put on at first, but he was totally serious.
 
Famous not-so-last words. :)

My question as a PPL who likes to take friends for rides, is how do I claim Goodwill on my 1040 and should I be paying estimated taxes on it?



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Look at the goodwill as an investment. You don’t claim anything on it right away but when that goodwill pays off and your friend buys you dinner later, you have to pay capital gains tax on it.
 
The FAA does not consider flight time that you pay for as compensation...you cannot compensate yourself. Lots of people knee jerked into that one.

Good to fly. Without compensation, 61.113 does not enter into it.

Now let's have 30 more followups warning about compensation, even though the OP has said "no compensation".

Actually the FAA does just that. When a private pilot carries a passenger with no common purpose from A to B on what appears to be a commercial flight where the pilot is not receiving any compensation, the FAA may deem good will as the compensation. (The expectation you receive a future favor for your generosity)
 
I always buy lunch for my buddies when not at an airport, that way they always owes me lunch when we do eat an an airport.

Sometimes I fly a buddy and they don’t pay a thing. Sometimes they fill the tank for me. Im not going to get worried that anyone at the faa cares.

After every flight, if I see any hint that goodwill was exchanged, I act like a douche to my buddies until it cancels out.
 
Which is absurd on the face of it.

I guess the best compelling case was a private pilot ferrying patrons he never met for free out to a bar party on an island in Lake Erie after the bar owner and a 135 operation failed come to an agreement. The FAA ruled the private pilot doing a favor for the bar owner was also going to receive a favor from the bar owner. Which seems very likely.
 
Tangentially, I wonder if a background check to drive for Uber is an y more or less stringent than getting a 3rd class medical. Just thinking out loud at this point.
 
I guess the best compelling case was a private pilot ferrying patrons he never met for free out to a bar party on an island in Lake Erie after the bar owner and a 135 operation failed come to an agreement. The FAA ruled the private pilot doing a favor for the bar owner was also going to receive a favor from the bar owner. Which seems very likely.
Sounds like the Murray case, in which the pilot had done work for the bar owner in the past, which made it reasonable to think that he might be hoping that the favor would enhance his chances of doing so again in the future. Excerpt:

There is no evidence that respondent received any money
directly. (Mr. Fitzgerald was subpoenaed by the Administrator to
testify but failed to appear.) Nevertheless, compensation need
not be direct nor in the form of money. Goodwill is a form of
prohibited compensation. Administrator v. Blackburn, 4 NTSB 409
(1982).

The evidence establishes that, not only was respondent a
friend of Mr. Fitzgerald, but he had done work for him in the
past. Interpreting the facts in a way most favorable to
respondent and assuming that he really had no expectation of any
kind of benefit, strains credulity. Respondent testified that
these flights cost him about $1100. The law judge, who had the
opportunity to witness respondent’s demeanor, judged his
credibility and rejected his Good Samaritan argument. The law
judge was unable to accept respondent’s claim that he would
freely transport people he did not know at a personal expense of
over $1000 simply for pleasure. We have no basis to overturn
that decision.
One thing I don't see mentioned in the case is that the wording of the regulation actually made it unnecessary to determine whether the pilot received compensation:

§61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

Note that there are actually TWO things prohibited by that paragraph, the part before the semicolon,

...no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire;

and the part after the semicolon,

nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
The second part prohibits the flight if the pilot is receiving compensation for it. The first part prohibits the flight if ANYONE is receiving compensation for it, even if the pilot himself receives nothing. And in the description of the facts of the case, it was mentioned that the passengers paid for the flight as part of a package deal:

Mr. Ed’s charged a flat price for the party, and it included air transportation.
 

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  • Murray - Goodwill as Compensation - 5061.pdf
    10.9 KB · Views: 0
Sounds like the Murray case, in which the pilot had done work for the bar owner in the past, which made it reasonable to think that he might be hoping that the favor would enhance his chances of doing so again in the future. Excerpt:

There is no evidence that respondent received any money
directly. (Mr. Fitzgerald was subpoenaed by the Administrator to
testify but failed to appear.) Nevertheless, compensation need
not be direct nor in the form of money. Goodwill is a form of
prohibited compensation. Administrator v. Blackburn, 4 NTSB 409
(1982).

The evidence establishes that, not only was respondent a
friend of Mr. Fitzgerald, but he had done work for him in the
past. Interpreting the facts in a way most favorable to
respondent and assuming that he really had no expectation of any
kind of benefit, strains credulity. Respondent testified that
these flights cost him about $1100. The law judge, who had the
opportunity to witness respondent’s demeanor, judged his
credibility and rejected his Good Samaritan argument. The law
judge was unable to accept respondent’s claim that he would
freely transport people he did not know at a personal expense of
over $1000 simply for pleasure. We have no basis to overturn
that decision.
One thing I don't see mentioned in the case is that the wording of the regulation actually made it unnecessary to determine whether the pilot received compensation:

§61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

Note that there are actually TWO things prohibited by that paragraph, the part before the semicolon,

...no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire;

and the part after the semicolon,

nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
The second part prohibits the flight if the pilot is receiving compensation for it. The first part prohibits the flight if ANYONE is receiving compensation for it, even if the pilot himself receives nothing. And in the description of the facts of the case, it was mentioned that the passengers paid for the flight as part of a package deal:

Mr. Ed’s charged a flat price for the party, and it included air transportation.

Thanks for the link. I out of country and could not find it via search.
 
Sounds like the Murray case...

The second part prohibits the flight if the pilot is receiving compensation for it. The first part prohibits the flight if ANYONE is receiving compensation for it, even if the pilot himself receives nothing. And in the description of the facts of the case, it was mentioned that the passengers paid for the flight as part of a package deal:

Mr. Ed’s charged a flat price for the party, and it included air transportation.

Bingo. It had nothing to do with good will, and everything to do with the passengers having paid the bar for the party including air transportation.

OP's case is still perfectly legal.
 
So, what if I fly a lady friend somewhere and she decides to "reward" me without any prompting by me. Is that considered compensation, goodwill, or both?
 
So, what if I fly a lady friend somewhere and she decides to "reward" me without any prompting by me. Is that considered compensation, goodwill, or both?
It's considered a good time! And don't log it, Mrs SkyDog might audit the log book ;)
 
And OP, as long as the expectation of actually getting to the meeting is managed, I say go forth and enjoy your Chik-Fil-A sammich in peace.
 
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