POTUS TFR MVY

Glen R

Glen R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Glen
A TFR has been posted for MVY for two weeks due to presidents visit. So many airports are affected it's hard to believe they do this for that length of time, particularly during the short summer season. Anyhows, I have a question. Here is the TFR:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_6_7090.html

The 10 Mile inner ring is basically a no-fly zone for GA. I'm at FRG. If I wanted to fly to ACK (Nantucket) I could avoid the 10 mile ring but would be in the 30. If I read it right, one can do that if on an active VFR or IFR flight plane with a designated squawk and contact with ATC. If I file a VFR flight plan, which I haven't done in some time, don't you usually squawk 1200? What would the process be to obtain a squawk? Thanks.
 
Glen R said:
A TFR has been posted for MVY for two weeks due to presidents visit. So many airports are affected it's hard to believe they do this for that length of time, particularly during the short summer season. Anyhows, I have a question. Here is the TFR:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_6_7090.html

The 10 Mile inner ring is basically a no-fly zone for GA. I'm at FRG. If I wanted to fly to ACK (Nantucket) I could avoid the 10 mile ring but would be in the 30. If I read it right, one can do that if on an active VFR or IFR flight plane with a designated squawk and contact with ATC. If I file a VFR flight plan, which I haven't done in some time, don't you usually squawk 1200? What would the process be to obtain a squawk? Thanks.
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You definitely can fly VFR in the 30 mile ring. You have to get a squawk from ATC before entering the ring. You are going to have to contact them anyways to activate your VFR flight plan. At that point they will give you the squawk . They will keep you on VFR advisories so you will be talking to them the whole way.
 
You can also see if they'll let you in with just your code. I did this transitioning the outer ring of a TFR in Philly a few weeks ago.
 
VIP TFR's are not a brick walls for GA. To be legal in the 30mn ring all it usually requires is filling a VFR flight plan and squawk a discrete code...which for VFR would simply be on Flight Following for the squawk and talk park. So activated flight plan and FF and you meet the requirements to be able to enter. ATC does not open and close VFR flight plans, that needs to be done through FSS.

For longer duration TFR's, the 10nm ring is also penetrable but usually involves a stop and inspection at a designated "gateway" airport before proceeding into the 10nm ring:

C. ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS NOT COVERED IN PARAGRAPH A. WITHIN THE 10NM RADIUS AREA MUST BE SECURITY SCREENED BY TSA AT A GATEWAY AIRPORT PRIOR TO ARRIVING OR DEPARTING MARTHA'S VINEYARD AIRPORT (KMVY). AIRCRAFT OPERATORS MUST REGISTER WITH THE TSA FOR GATEWAY SCREENING NO LESS THAN 24 HOURS PRIOR TO THEIR SCHEDULED DEPARTURE TIME. RESERVATIONS FOR SCREENING MAY BE MADE DAILY BEGINNING AUGUST 3rd AT 0001 LOCAL BY CALLING TSA AT 617-561-8031.
 
I plan to fly through the outer ring of this TRF on Sunday. Will let you know how it goes... what I had to do, didn't have to do, etc. If you don't hear from me, then just assume it didn't go well! ;)
 
The only tricky part of a presidential TFR is departing VFR from an airport inside the 30 mile ring. You have to get a beacon code and open the flight plan prior to departure. SOP for IFR, not so much for VFR. Otherwise things are as folks have described. Well that and atc may get a little antsy when you are within a couple miles of the 10 mile ring at least they did with me.
 
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Glen R said:
A TFR has been posted for MVY for two weeks due to presidents visit. So many airports are affected it's hard to believe they do this for that length of time, particularly during the short summer season. Anyhows, I have a question. Here is the TFR:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_6_7090.html

The 10 Mile inner ring is basically a no-fly zone for GA. I'm at FRG. If I wanted to fly to ACK (Nantucket) I could avoid the 10 mile ring but would be in the 30. If I read it right, one can do that if on an active VFR or IFR flight plane with a designated squawk and contact with ATC. If I file a VFR flight plan, which I haven't done in some time, don't you usually squawk 1200? What would the process be to obtain a squawk? Thanks.
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A hole in your training that should be addressed ASAP, if not at your next flight review.

Bob Gardner
 
I flew into this same TFR last year, and it's really no big deal. I was nervous about it beforehand and contacted Cape Approach on the phone. They were very helpful and glad to chat. As luck would have it I was IFR that day, but the plan was for VFR so I had the same questions you do. Basically if you are VFR being on flight following with a squawk is all that is necessary. You don't actually have to file a flight plan, you simply need to be talking to them so they know who you are and where you're going. This isn't exactly how the TFR reads, but it's what I was told directly from the controlling agency. If you wanna verify the phone # is 508-563-1400

Even the inner 10 mile ring is not a brick wall, but you will need to stop at one of the designated airports and go through some minor BS. I wasn't going to MVY so I didn't have to do that.
 
I'm planning on flying to Nantucket in a couple weeks which is between the inner and outer ring. I am VFR only. I am pretty sure that Nantucket Ground can't put you on Flight Following and issue you a code like Ground can at some airports. Should I contact Clearance Delivery and just ask for VFR Flight Following before I contact Ground?
 
neilw2 said:
You definitely can fly VFR in the 30 mile ring. You have to get a squawk from ATC before entering the ring. You are going to have to contact them anyways to activate your VFR flight plan.
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You would typically open your VFR flight plan with flight services, not ATC.
 
PPC1052 said:
You would typically open your VFR flight plan with flight services, not ATC.
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Good point.

I don't use VFR flight plans at all but the last time I did it (it was for a TFR as well) I opened it up at the Class C clearance/delivery before taxi. I would assume that for purposes of a TFR ATC would allow you to open it with them as well? Am I wrong about that?
 
neilw2 said:
Good point.

I don't use VFR flight plans at all but the last time I did it (it was for a TFR as well) I opened it up at the Class C clearance/delivery before taxi. I would assume that for purposes of a TFR ATC would allow you to open it with them as well? Am I wrong about that?
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I suppose they could pick up the phone and call FSS for you if they are really bored, so I suppose that's possible.
 
MassPilot said:
I'm planning on flying to Nantucket in a couple weeks which is between the inner and outer ring. I am VFR only. I am pretty sure that Nantucket Ground can't put you on Flight Following and issue you a code like Ground can at some airports. Should I contact Clearance Delivery and just ask for VFR Flight Following before I contact Ground?
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I'll be flying into KCQX, which is non-towered. Was told that I should contact Clearance Delivery while still on the ground to get my squawk. Technically, KCQX is outside of the TFR, but I'll be flying right into it after takeoff.


Glen R said:
What would the process be to obtain a squawk? Thanks.
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If the airport you are departing is outside of the TFR, then you just need to get on flight following by contacting Approach (Boston, Providence, Cape... whoever) once you get airborne. Start with: XYZ Approach, Cessna 1234Alpha, VFR Request. When they respond, say something like: Approach, Cessna 1234Alpha, Where You Are, Your Altitude, and Your Request (ex: flight following from KABC to KXYZ). Or something along those lines. They'll come back at you with a squawk code. Once you enter the squawk, they will confirm they have you on radar contact.

Also, I agree with Bob... this is something that you should have learned in your training.
 
Ok guys, I know how to get a squawk. What I meant is if that was sufficient for penetrating a TFR as flight following is not an approval to enter Class B for instance.
 
Glen R said:
Ok guys, I know how to get a squawk. What I meant is if that was sufficient for penetrating a TFR as flight following is not an approval to enter Class B for instance.
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When Philly had that TFR about 2 weeks ago, ATC cleared me through it with just my code. I'd ask ATC.
 
StinkBug said:
. You don't actually have to file a flight plan, you simply need to be talking to them so they know who you are and where you're going.
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Negative...you need to be on an active VFR flight plan to be legal to enter the 30nm ring. TFR is clear as day on that. You may not need a flight plan for ATC to clear you into the TFR, but that does not mean you are legal to do so. There are several layers going on here...ATC probably has no idea nor care if you have a flight plan or not, but TRACON is not responsible for the security of POTUS. Those friendly government folks sitting in a carved out mountain in Colorado are. Yeah...they are surely talking to ATC as well, but is is not TRACON that makes a call to scramble jets for an intercept. Same idea if ATC issues you an IFR clearance and you accept but are not legal. It is on you, not them.

G. FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE AIRSPACE BETWEEN THE 10 NMR AND 30 NMR AREA(S) LISTED ABOVE, KNOWN AS THE OUTER RING(S): ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING WITHIN THE OUTER RING(S) LISTED ABOVE ARE LIMITED TO AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING LOCAL AIRFIELDS, AND WORKLOAD PERMITTING, ATC MAY AUTHORIZE TRANSIT OPERATIONS. AIRCRAFT MAY NOT LOITER. ALL AIRCRAFT MUST BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN WITH A DISCRETE CODE ASSIGNED BY AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY. AIRCRAFT MUST BE SQUAWKING THE DISCRETE CODE PRIOR TO DEPARTURE AND AT ALL TIMES WHILE IN THE TFR AND MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC.

Glen R said:
Ok guys, I know how to get a squawk. What I meant is if that was sufficient for penetrating a TFR as flight following is not an approval to enter Class B for instance.
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I believe you need to have permission to enter a TFR just like a Bravo clearance or active Restricted airspace. It is not like C and D where simply a squawk and talk and you are free to enter...anyone know differently?
 
Shawn said:
I believe you need to have permission to enter a TFR just like a Bravo clearance or active Restricted airspace. It is not like C and D where simply a squawk and talk and you are free to enter...anyone know differently?
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I'm going to call tomorrow and find out.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I'm going to call tomorrow and find out.
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I would be interested in that answer as well....

When I have flown in a active TFR I can't remember them saying "Cleared through the outer ring" or anything like that so I can't imagine you need specific clearance but maybe I forget when they said it?

One thing I do remember is when they turn you over to the tower/CTAF they do say "Stay on your squwak all the way to the ground do not change to 1200"
 
Not all TFRs are the same.

A VIP TFR does not need clearance unless the NOTAM says it does. But as always, if in doubt, ask.
 
I feel like the POTUS makes this trip fairly regularly, which means locals (controllers, etc.) Should be getting used to this. Am I wrong in my thinking?
 
You are not at all wrong in your thinking. When I called Cape approach last year for the same TFR they were very familiar and straight up told me all I needed was to be squawking and talking with them.

If you were just transiting the area I'd specifically ask them if it was ok to enter, but if you're landing inside the ring and they know your destination then it's pretty obvious that you'll be coming in. Never hurts to ask, but it's kind of a no-brainer.
 
Shawn said:
Negative...you need to be on an active VFR flight plan to be legal to enter the 30nm ring. TFR is clear as day on that. You may not need a flight plan for ATC to clear you into the TFR, but that does not mean you are legal to do so. There are several layers going on here...ATC probably has no idea nor care if you have a flight plan or not, but TRACON is not responsible for the security of POTUS. Those friendly government folks sitting in a carved out mountain in Colorado are. Yeah...they are surely talking to ATC as well, but is is not TRACON that makes a call to scramble jets for an intercept. Same idea if ATC issues you an IFR clearance and you accept but are not legal. It is on you, not them.

G. FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE AIRSPACE BETWEEN THE 10 NMR AND 30 NMR AREA(S) LISTED ABOVE, KNOWN AS THE OUTER RING(S): ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING WITHIN THE OUTER RING(S) LISTED ABOVE ARE LIMITED TO AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING LOCAL AIRFIELDS, AND WORKLOAD PERMITTING, ATC MAY AUTHORIZE TRANSIT OPERATIONS. AIRCRAFT MAY NOT LOITER. ALL AIRCRAFT MUST BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR OR VFR FLIGHT PLAN WITH A DISCRETE CODE ASSIGNED BY AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY. AIRCRAFT MUST BE SQUAWKING THE DISCRETE CODE PRIOR TO DEPARTURE AND AT ALL TIMES WHILE IN THE TFR AND MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC.



I believe you need to have permission to enter a TFR just like a Bravo clearance or active Restricted airspace. It is not like C and D where simply a squawk and talk and you are free to enter...anyone know differently?
Click to expand...


The TFR may be clear as day, but when I called and talked to the actual people in charge of control of the TFR they were clear as day in telling me that flight following met the requirements of a VFR flight plan for them. They know where you are, who you are, and where you are going. That's all a flight plan is, and since VFR flight plans are through Flight Service and not ATC Flight following is as much of a plan as they ever see anyways.

I already posted the phone number for the controlling authority, feel free to find out for yourself.
 
Last time I flew through a presidential TFR I had an IFR clearance. No other magic words were needed. I was inside the 30 mile ring but outside the 10 mile ring. ATC did get a little weird when I passed within about a mile and a half of the 10 mile ring.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I plan to fly through the outer ring of this TRF on Sunday. Will let you know how it goes... what I had to do, didn't have to do, etc. If you don't hear from me, then just assume it didn't go well! ;)
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Golly! I hope you get really good photos of the F-22's that intercept you!
 
BTDT, back when P49 (Crawford, Texas) was regularly expanded in size. It was frequent and lengthy enough that it was printed on the San Antonio sectional chart.

Ennyhoo, when I was first a pilot, and I was flying to Austin (or wherever, south), I'd be on flight following (as was my habit anyway) and fly a dogleg to stay out of the outer ring. Waco Approach (the controlling authority) cleared me direct Austin, which took me through the outer ring, and when I questioned the controller about not having a flight plan on file, he chuckled and told me, "I'm the guy who would call you in for a violation, you're good."

Later, after I got my IFR, I just filed all the time, kept it simple.

Got to listen to a few intercepts in progress, as well as a guy who made a very caustic political comment on-frequency when he was vectored to remain clear of the center ring. He got a phone number to call.
 
StinkBug said:
I flew into this same TFR last year, and it's really no big deal. I was nervous about it beforehand and contacted Cape Approach on the phone. They were very helpful and glad to chat. As luck would have it I was IFR that day, but the plan was for VFR so I had the same questions you do. Basically if you are VFR being on flight following with a squawk is all that is necessary. You don't actually have to file a flight plan, you simply need to be talking to them so they know who you are and where you're going. This isn't exactly how the TFR reads, but it's what I was told directly from the controlling agency. If you wanna verify the phone # is 508-563-1400

Even the inner 10 mile ring is not a brick wall, but you will need to stop at one of the designated airports and go through some minor BS. I wasn't going to MVY so I didn't have to do that.
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I called. The guy was very nice and happy to answer questions. As long as you are departing outside the TFR, all that you need to do is contact approach frequency and they will give you a squawk code. You will keep that code all the way until you land. Do not switch to VFR squawk. Maintain radio contact at all times. And do not loiter. That's it. Easy!

If you have additional questions, I recommend calling. Like I said, the guy was very nice and he said that he would prefer pilots calling with questions than doing things wrong.

Oh, and as long as you are on flight following, you do not have to ask additional permission to enter the TFR.
 
ircphoenix said:
Ask him how to be a practice intercept target. I'd love to do that. PRACTICE.
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They get plenty of practice in real life.

If you want to be a REAL practice target, go join the CAP. One of their missions is penetration exercises to drill the tracking and interceptor folks.
 
ircphoenix said:
Yeah.... But then I'd have to join CAP...
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Well, if you really don't want to, that's your choice. But there is a squadron with a plane right there at your home airport. And I almost got assigned to fly it tomorrow (but it's in Merced right now on a search).
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, if you really don't want to, that's your choice. But there is a squadron with a plane right there at your home airport. And I almost got assigned to fly it tomorrow (but it's in Merced right now on a search).
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I know there is. And I emailed the guy three times and asked him to call me and he never did, despite acknowledging my email.

So now I'm being a bitter betty. =D
 
ircphoenix said:
I know there is. And I emailed the guy three times and asked him to call me and he never did, despite acknowledging my email.

So now I'm being a bitter betty. =D
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Best bet is to look at their website and then SHOW UP at their next meeting. They are open. And keep in mind they are all humans, many with day jobs and families. Maybe ONE guy dropped the ball but that doesn't mean they all will. Side step and move forward.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It really sucks when the vacation plans of one person can disrupt the daily lives of so many. Not what I thought a democracy was all about.
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And it really sucks that everyone has to stand in line for an hour and take their shoes off to get on a commercial airliner these days. Who you gonna blame?
 
Doggtyred said:
Best bet is to look at their website and then SHOW UP at their next meeting. They are open. And keep in mind they are all humans, many with day jobs and families. Maybe ONE guy dropped the ball but that doesn't mean they all will. Side step and move forward.
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Can't show up at the meeting... I work. That's what I was trying to talk to him about.
 
Silvaire said:
And it really sucks that everyone has to stand in line for an hour and take their shoes off to get on a commercial airliner these days. Who you gonna blame?
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I blame the idiotic overreaching bureaucrats who force these idiotic rules on us and our elected leadership who blindly go along.
 
Hey, guys... don't get this thread locked with political stuff, k? I want to report back to the OP - and others interested - after tomorrow's flight, so I can give feedback on procedures.
 
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