Poor guy...

He probably left the plane there and took a cab home. Boy and I thought I was nervous at controlled airports.
 
I've listened to that before and I hate it. The student was obviously overwhelmed and needed a good talking-to once on the ground; however, in the air, when he's lost and confused is not the time for the controller to be adding to his stress by yelling at him about something that's already happened and asking him why he's lost. All he's doing is adding to the chance of further and more dangerous screw-ups by the pilot.
 
Sounds like he did not have much experience with towered airports. Maybe on a solo is no the time to learn.
Yea I did feel for him.
 
And I thought my solo XC all those years ago went horribly. Had a good laugh, thought I hope he gets himself straightened up soon
 
It was quite clear he had little experience as was getting task saturated. This is where a controller can do a world of good by HELPING him ( slow down, progressive instructions, calm demeanor) or can continue to make things worse as this guy did.


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Somewhere along the way (like on the initial call up) it may have benefited him to confess that he is a "student pilot" and request a suggested heading, call his base, progressive taxi instructions, etc.

In Florida I hear foreign students getting chewed out all of the time. There is something about the combination of cluelessness and arrogance of pretending like they understand something when they don't (many cultures consider asking for help to be losing face) that absolutely sets controllers off. Clearly that was the case here.
 
Brad Z said:
Somewhere along the way (like on the initial call up) it may have benefited him to confess that he is a "student pilot" and request a suggested heading, call his base, progressive taxi instructions, etc.

In Florida I hear foreign students getting chewed out all of the time. There is something about the combination of cluelessness and arrogance of pretending like they understand something when they don't (many cultures consider asking for help to be losing face) that absolutely sets controllers off. Clearly that was the case here.
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I don't see anything in that video that makes it anywhere apparent that such a bullying response was required nor warranted. No arrogance either on the part of the uninitiated. This sounds like a case of someone who has overstayed their welcome at doing a repetitive job. We get them in the instructing world too. Greybeards who have lost patience and the sense of buy-in to be moderated and temperate when attempting to teach what they have taught too many times before, without becoming short-fused. People like these need to hang it up and do something else for a while. It's human nature to be bored and apathetic, no harm no foul, but don't be a bully. The controller lost all credibility with me in that scenario.
 
Brad Z said:
...and where did he come up with runway "one right"?
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Dude, classical matrix substitution. "C"loud is like "C"otton because it looks like cotton. "One"-right is "One"-three. Primal association. We get it on the military training world too. Train on 13/31 field all day every day, go to a 15/33 and watch the 13 calls fly. You seem intent in crucifying the uninitiated. You wouldn't happen to be a controller by chance would you? :rolleyes2:
 
hindsight2020 said:
I don't see anything in that video that makes it anywhere apparent that such a bullying response was required nor warranted. No arrogance either on the part of the uninitiated. This sounds like a case of someone who has overstayed their welcome at doing a repetitive job. We get them in the instructing world too. Greybeards who have lost patience and the sense of buy-in to be moderated and temperate when attempting to teach what they have taught too many times before, without becoming short-fused. People like these need to hang it up and do something else for a while. It's human nature to be bored and apathetic, no harm no foul, but don't be a bully. The controller lost all credibility with me in that scenario.
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By arrogance I mean the student clearly was confused, but rather than fessing up, pretended like he understood the instruction, further aggravating the controller. Obviously it would have been preferable for the controller to settle his tone down a few notches, but this student just did not seem to be LISTENING to the controller....not a good thing.
 
I concur that on his first miscue he should have stated he was a student pilot. I suspect the controller would have been a bit more patient.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Dude, classical matrix substitution. "C"loud is like "C"otton because it looks like cotton. "One"-right is "One"-three. Primal association. We get it on the military training world too. Train on 13/31 field all day every day, go to a 15/33 and watch the 13 calls fly. You seem intent in crucifying the uninitiated. You wouldn't happen to be a controller by chance would you? :rolleyes2:
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It's just that when you say "left" "right", or "center", there is generally a parallel runway, which is clearly not the case at this 'X' configured runway.

...and no, not a controller, just another pilot sharing the airspace. Spend some time in Florida and you will understand. And if you want to hear really cranky impatient controllers dealing with foreign flight students, tune into DAB approach. Good entertainment.
 
I myself have never lost situational awareness and nearly overflown my home field. Nope, not me.
 
I also heard a number of times where they were transmitting at the same time. That obviously wasn't helping.

The student pilot wasn't ready for that. I haven't seen anyone mention that yet either.

Either he got really lucky the one time his instructor took him to a towered airport and the instructor was duped, or the instructor signed him off on the flight, unprepared.

Not knowing what a direct base entry is or looks like, screams "not ready" to me.
 
ehh kinda happened to me once when I was landing on Runway 17R when he directed me for a Left downwind. Really confused the ****e out of me and I wasnt sure so I headed to 17L above pattern altitude and he promptly corrected me in a simular fasion but unlike this student I knew how to correct my problem. A mistake I learned a lot from. It wouldnt help when tower is acting like a jerk.

In my case it was a quick "what the heck are you doing" and a oops i'll correct it.
 
I was cringing the whole time I listed to this :(

When I move back to Colorado in about a year and start my training, I was giving some thought to whether I want to start my training at a towered or untowered airport.

First thought was untowered so I wouldn't have mic fright and communications to deal with. But the more I hear these kinds of things, I think I'd almost rather be hit with the firehouse (so to speak) and learn at a busy towered airport like Centennial, so I'm immersed from day 1 (although I've read most instructors handle the comms early on in training). But at least I'd be exposed to it, and hopefully used to it by the time I solo'd.
 
I trained out of KRNO (Class C). I highly suggest training in a towered environment to get used to the communication aspects.
 
Actually, do we know for sure it was a student pilot? All someone did was grab the liveatc recording, stick a label on it, and post in on Youtube. And I'm sure it wasn't the pilot himself who did it.
 
It's obvious this is either a student or someone who did no prior planning on the arrival stage of the flight. Take a scanner, an airport diagram and go out to the local D or C and listen. Walk through what the controller is instructing and the aircraft doing.

GOOD prior planning will help when you're at a stage in training where just the act of flying the aircraft is taking up most of your brain power.
 
Brad Z said:
...and where did he come up with runway "one right"?
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Wrote "13" on his kneeboard poorly and read it incorrectly, forgot what runways airport had.

Even now I don't go anywhere without reading about every surrounding airport in A/FD and drawing little diagrams with runway numbers, just in case.

And I had to read about "report 3 mile base" in Bob Gardner's book 10 times before it made sense.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
I don't see anything in that video that makes it anywhere apparent that such a bullying response was required nor warranted. No arrogance either on the part of the uninitiated. This sounds like a case of someone who has overstayed their welcome at doing a repetitive job. We get them in the instructing world too. Greybeards who have lost patience and the sense of buy-in to be moderated and temperate when attempting to teach what they have taught too many times before, without becoming short-fused. People like these need to hang it up and do something else for a while. It's human nature to be bored and apathetic, no harm no foul, but don't be a bully. The controller lost all credibility with me in that scenario.
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:yeahthat:

It is a real shame this controlled acted the way he did. Clearly, the pilot was rattled and inexperienced. And some controllers wonder why pilots won't use ATC or flight following. :rolleyes:
 
The pilot may not have been a student - I don't know fro sure. But it should have been very obvious to the controller, as it was to pretty much all of us that listened, that the guy was "lost" in his head. Even the controller was berating the guy for being confused - so why not just deal with it so that all involved learn something?

I'm fortunate - so far I haven't gotten on any controller's bad side. Almost once, but there was enough confusion in that case to go around so we both learned a lesson that day.
 
The student was unprepared, clearly.

The controller was also WAY out of line. There is nothing to be gained by berating any pilot in the air, let alone a confused student in over his head. Let's hope he controls a desk now.

I've annoyed a controller or two, especially when flying with a crappy radio (there are only so many "say again"s they like to hear). Never had one treat me like that, though.
 
Matthew said:
The pilot may not have been a student - I don't know fro sure. But it should have been very obvious to the controller, as it was to pretty much all of us that listened, that the guy was "lost" in his head. Even the controller was berating the guy for being confused - so why not just deal with it so that all involved learn something?
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I wonder if this is a case where a non-pilot controller doesn't realize how difficult it can be to aviate, navigate, and communicate, especially when flustered and a student pilot. He's chewing him out like they're both sitting comfortably in the tower, while in reality the guy in the airplane has to first think about getting the plane down safely.
 
I agree the controller wasn't very professional but depending on how busy he was he has no time to lead this guy by the hand. This should have been done long ago by his CFI. He was obviously jacked up and needs to know the seriousness if his actions when it comes to adhering to ATC instructions. It's not like he's operating out of a sleepy class G and shows up disoriented. His inattention could get others around him killed. This is a case of clear poor planning on the pilots end.
 
Velocity173 said:
I agree the controller wasn't very professional but depending on how busy he was he has no time to lead this guy by the hand.
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There's a big gulf between leading by the hand and what he did. He had plenty of time to berate him over the air. "Turn left. I told you to turn left, why'd you turn right? Seriously, why'd you turn right, didn't you hear I told you turn left?"

And, yes, at that point he was a danger to himself and others in the air and on the ground, so the controller _should_ spend time to make sure he gets down on the ground safely without killing himsef and others.

Luckily, controllers like this are rare and there are plenty of examples of great controllers out there who have handled similar situations much better.
 
Timmer said:
There's a big gulf between leading by the hand and what he did. He had plenty of time to berate him over the air. "Turn left. I told you to turn left, why'd you turn right? Seriously, why'd you turn right, didn't you hear I told you turn left?"

And, yes, at that point he was a danger to himself and others in the air and on the ground, so the controller _should_ spend time to make sure he gets down on the ground safely without killing himsef and others.

Luckily, controllers like this are rare and there are plenty of examples of great controllers out there who have handled similar situations much better.
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As I said, he wasn't professional. Also we have no idea if this was even a student. Possibly if it was a student and checked in as such, the controller would have handled the situation much differently. Even a friendly controller can't make up for inadequacies in training though.

When it comes down to it the responsibility for complying with ATC clearances / instructions rests squarely on the shoulders of the PIC.
 
Whenever I go into an unfamiliar airport, I will study the taxi diagram, circle where the FBO is, brief where I'm going to exit, and in general what taxi route I should expect. I think students are sometimes embarrassed to say "student pilot" or ask for a progressive taxi. I've found the "student pilot" call sign to be extremely helpful for me when I was doing my initial training. Controllers would slow things down and would clarify a lot of things. Luckily for me i train at KFRG which is one of the busiest GA airports in the NE where even the tower guys are trainees. We have students everywhere and I got real comfortable with communicating early on in my training. If I were the student I would have done a little more studying on the terminal environment and the taxi diagram so he doesn't make this mistake again. His instructor also should have went over some traffic pattern entry and unfamiliar airport procedures.
 
Velocity173 said:
As I said, he wasn't professional. Also we have no idea if this was even a student. Possibly if it was a student and checked in as such, the controller would have handled the situation much differently. Even a friendly controller can't make up for inadequacies in training though.

When it comes down to it the responsibility for complying with ATC clearances / instructions rests squarely on the shoulders of the PIC.
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All true.

I'm assuming he's a student based on his initial radio call which didn't sound very secure, either. Also, he could have just been rattled by something that happened in the air before the call, or a fresh-out Private Pilot.

Hopefully, either way, he got more training and realized what he could do better next time.

As a student about to start my cross-countries, I've found it doesn't take much to get rattled, especially as a newbie. Of course, I find it happens less and less, but having a controller yelling at you is never helpful.

Of course, this is different than a wilful disregard of instructions which doesn't appear to be the case here. Either way, learning from mistakes is the name of the game.
 
I can say I think the controller was a bit over the top. That being said, I also think the should have either stated he in fact was a student or at the very least asked the controller to "cut me a little slack here I'm having a tough time"
Ya that's what I would've done. Is it proper or professional? No it's not. But I'd do what I had to do to try and calm the situation down .. Land and regroup. Poor dude!!!
 
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Good point. I'll add that to my lessons from this video: don't be afraid to tell the controller you are lost, confused, and need help.

The pilot kept trying to cover it, no doubt in half-panic mode. Not a good idea and probably aggrivated the controller on his side.
 
I think the best thing the controller could have done was just vectored him to final in that situation.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I think the best thing the controller could have done was just vectored him to final in that situation.
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I think the best he could have done was let the student enter on the 45 like he wanted to. That wasn't the instruction, but it would have led to the least number of downstream errors.

While it's true we don't know for a fact this was a student, let's not be silly about that. He very obviously was not familiar with towered airport procedures and attempted to use non towered standards. He was also flustered as heck. Does it make a difference in the air whether the certificate says "student pilot" or not? Really?

On the ground, if he's not a student, he needs a 44709 ride really bad. But the dynamics in the air do not and cannot change.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I think the best he could have done was let the student enter on the 45 like he wanted to. That wasn't the instruction, but it would have led to the least number of downstream errors.

While it's true we don't know for a fact this was a student, let's not be silly about that. He very obviously was not familiar with towered airport procedures and attempted to use non towered standards. He was also flustered as heck. Does it make a difference in the air whether the certificate says "student pilot" or not? Really?

On the ground, if he's not a student, he needs a 44709 ride really bad. But the dynamics in the air do not and cannot change.
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Well, except that he wanted to make the 45 for the wrong runway. He seemed to have the runway headings confused.
 
I can somewhat sympathize with this guy. He was obviously turned loose too early and sounds as overwhelmed as I was talking to a tower the first few times. Coming from an uncontrolled airport I only recently started talking to atc. Dealt with towers on 5 flights total now so I'm low on the experience level. I flew to a quiet class D yesterday which was perfect practice for me. I studied the runways and taxiways well before taking off and had a diagram on my knee board on top as soon as I landed. To let you know how quiet it was I was put on a 14 mile left base. I'm definitely ready for tougher situations but a busier class C has me a little nervous still.
 
"Student pilot" probably could helped if he mentioned it on the initial call, or right when things started going down hill.

I learned to fly out of FMY and the (other) controllers are friendly. Pretty sure this guy is no longer working at FMY.
 
Probably first controlled field landing.
Entering a 45 degree downwind leg at a towered airport...

I bet the controller gave him instructions and the pilot didn't understand and just proceeded as he does at uncontrolled fields.

I don't think I would have known early on that controlled airports don't necessarily have the same pattern entries as is generally accepted at an uncontrolled airfield.

A side note: I totally find my self using phrasing like "don't necessarily have" and "as is generally accepted" because as I type, I think "How long until someone jumps in and explains that traffic patterns are optional" or "Towered fields do have traffic patterns"
I wanted to word that last bit more succinctly

This forum is making me gun-shy in my typing. :)
 
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