Poll: Upgrade ELT?

[Ken Ibold]

Just curious which aircraft owners plan to upgrade their ELTs ...

 

[ScottM]

I waiting for the cost to stabilize.

Since I live and fly in a fairly non-wilderness area I am not too worried plus I do have a portable 406MHz PIRB that I can use.

 

[bstratt]

How about an option stating "Don't know yet"? I'm waiting to see if Canada allows a portable on an N registered plane (as the FAA does) but their deadline is Feb 1st (I think). If so, I'll probably buy a portable. If not, it will be price dependant as I don't think my partners will be interested meaning I'll have to foot the bill.

I wonder how many rentals will convert?? I assume none.

 

[Bob Noel]

Is there a requirement to switch?

 

[gprellwitz]

Leslie and I bought portables for the planned Alaska trip. So we have 2 portable 406's and a 496, and don't even own a plane! The way we're spending money on this stuff, we won't be able to afford one, either!

 

[SCCutler]

I am principally waiting for the prices to rationalize with volume, as they surely shall.

Issue also whether I fly to Mexico or Canada and am required to do so.

 

[flyersfan31]

I'm probably upgrading aircraft soon, so it would be a waste of $$. I'll make sure the next a/c has one though.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Is there a requirement to switch?

No. But in February satellite monitoring will go offline. The only ones who will hear the tone will be people tuned to 121.5 ...

 

[Ken Ibold]

How about an option stating "Don't know yet"? I'm waiting to see if Canada allows a portable on an N registered plane (as the FAA does) but their deadline is Feb 1st (I think). If so, I'll probably buy a portable. If not, it will be price dependant as I don't think my partners will be interested meaning I'll have to foot the bill.

I wonder how many rentals will convert?? I assume none.

I believe both Canada and Mexico will require the 406 installed on aircraft operating in their airspace. Portable won't count.

 

[KennyFlys]

I believe both Canada and Mexico will require the 406 installed on aircraft operating in their airspace. Portable won't count.

I read where Canadian pilots are up in arms because the satellite reception will be next to worthless above the 60 degree parallel.

In looking, that should be along the southern border of the Northwest Territories which is also the southern edge of Alaska.

 

[Everskyward]

I read where Canadian pilots are up in arms because the satellite reception will be next to worthless above the 40 degree parallel.

Guess pilots in most of the northern half of the US will be up in arms too. 40 degrees is just north of Denver...

 

[gprellwitz]

I read where Canadian pilots are up in arms because the satellite reception will be next to worthless above the 40 degree parallel.

In which case I really wonder why we got them for our AK trip!

 

[KennyFlys]

Guess pilots in most of the northern half of the US will be up in arms too. 40 degrees is just north of Denver...

Oops!

That was supposed to be a six! So, make that the 60 degree parallel.

I'll correct above.

 

[tparsons]

My ELT (Sharc6) was falling apart and I didn't think it would survive another battery change. I upgraded to a ME-406. Hopefully, the price of the 5 year battery will come down.

 

[gprellwitz]

Oops!

That was supposed to be a six! So, make that the 60 degree parallel.

I'll correct above.

And since that's just south of Seward, I guess my comment still stands!

 

[KennyFlys]

And since that's just south of Seward, I guess my comment still stands!

Yep, sadly that was what I was thinking. I wish I could recall where I read this. The problem wasn't set across the entire stretch but certainly for any mountain flying and low valleys. The problem seen was those who did go down between mountains would never be seen by satellite and the 406 would be worthless for them.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

someone convince me of the need with a few stories of 'how they survived the crash but died because no one found them'...is it that common?

 

[Tim]

someone convince me of the need with a few stories of 'how they survived the crash but died because no one found them'...is it that common?

Now thats a thinker! We got folks that race to put the latest crash up on the web board But how many have been to some place remote I mean really remote where you can't get cell coverage

 

[Ken Ibold]

someone convince me of the need with a few stories of 'how they survived the crash but died because no one found them'...is it that common?

I did a study about 5 years ago wherein I searched through 15 years of accidents, looking for evidence of ELT "saves." In that, I found only one accident in which a functional ELT would clearly have made the difference. IIRC, it was in the pacific northwest. The pilot built a shelter out of the aircraft interior, had a fire, tried to hike out and came back. He died of hypothermia three days after the crash. Ironically, he was a CAP survival trainer, but he'd left his gear in his car back at the airport and was dressed in dress slacks and a light jacket for a winter flight.

ELT saves are more common among hikers and boaters, ostensibly because the ELT (and the person) is more likely to be functional for them than after an airplane crash.

 

[kmead]

I installed the Artex ME406 unit in the Malibu and will install one in the 172 soon. We've installed a lot of the 406 units in PA46 airframes but the antenea position change requires the antenea to be mounted through the pressure vessel, another lovely field approval. Piper installs the 406 antenea in the vertical fin fairing like the original, Artex says no and from personal experience, the unit flashes weak signal when mounted in the vertical fin.

I want to ask how they do it, but Piper holds this information up close and normally wont give me (their service center) the time of day. Oh well, lets find a different way to make it work.

Kevin

 

[Ken Ibold]

I want to ask how they do it, but Piper holds this information up close and normally wont give me (their service center) the time of day.

Sadly, this seems like SOP for Piper these days.

 

[PittsDriver]

I did a study about 5 years ago wherein I searched through 15 years of accidents, looking for evidence of ELT "saves."

I was the software project lead on the automation effort for the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center in the mid-1980's when SARSAT was first implemented. We developed the earth station software for SARSAT and the mission control automation for the RCC. I can tell you that in 1984, when the system went online, that SARSAT system itself was credited with a large number of saves. The rationale for the credit was those injured in a crash are much more likely to survive if they're located within the first few hours before the victims succumb to shock.

I've heard also about the issue of usefulness above 60 or 70 degrees of latitude. I was personally involved in an early 406 Mhz experiment, again back in the 1980s, where an arctic expedition was tracked by way of a 406 Mhz beacon. It worked very well. SARSAT used at that time low earth orbit satellites so nowhere on the planet was out of coverage for very long. I'd heard something about the system being transitioned to geosynchronous birds and that may have affected the coverage areas.

Here's the link to the SARSAT/COSPAS web site where they summarize how they think the system is working. It specifically lists the number of "saves" for the system:

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/

 

[Ken Ibold]

Here's the link to the SARSAT/COSPAS web site where they summarize how they think the system is working. It specifically lists the number of "saves" for the system:

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/

Yes, however, during the time period I examined, when I looked at the specific aviation incidents, virtually all were in circumstances where assistance would have been rendered in a timely fashion regardless. There's a judgment call here, and IMO anyone looking at the "facts" will interpret them slightly differently as to how significant the ELT was in the outcome. The accident I mentioned was the only one I could find where a fatality occurred that would not have had the ELT functioned correctly.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

15 years of accidents, looking for evidence of ELT "saves." In that, I found only one

Thanks Ken. Wow only one in 15 yrs. And I wonder if that one would become a zero if he had a cell phone back then.

Now I have to wonder what the whole system is costing us from all SAR resources to installations. Probably another one of those 'makes us feel good things but hardly justified'.. unless you are that 'one'!

 

[Everskyward]

Probably another one of those 'makes us feel good things but hardly justified'.. unless you are that 'one'!

Yeah, it makes me wonder how I survived flying small airplanes for such a long time without most of the gadgets that many pilots find indispensable now. It's not only flying. I can remember escaping alone in my car, sometimes for days, without any form of communication. I had never even heard of cell phones.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Thanks Ken. Wow only one in 15 yrs. And I wonder if that one would become a zero if he had a cell phone back then.

Now I have to wonder what the whole system is costing us from all SAR resources to installations. Probably another one of those 'makes us feel good things but hardly justified'.. unless you are that 'one'!

That's one AVIATION-specific one. The story for lost hikers and disabled boaters is far, far more optimistic.

 

[PittsDriver]

Yes, however, during the time period I examined, when I looked at the specific aviation incidents, virtually all were in circumstances where assistance would have been rendered in a timely fashion regardless.

The NOAA web site says that they record a "rescue" any time SARSAT/COSPAS is used as the primary means of detection or location. They're claiming, just for aviation in 2007, 30 people rescued in 19 incidents. So I guess I'm wondering how their methodology of crediting their system of ELT detection/location is different than the value judgement you're making in your research? For a crash victim, what do you mean by "timely fashion?" It could certainly be that these accidents would have been located and people rescued without the system. But were they found and aided maybe a little faster or more reliably or even less expensively because of the system?

As people have opined, it's certainly not a highly reliable system. Steve Fossett is an excellent example of where this system should have worked and didn't. I guess I look at this system as insurance. I wear a parachute when I fly acro even though there's not a great chance it'll help me. I'm considering a helmet now for the same reason. I hope to never have to use either but if I sleep better knowing I'm using them, what's the value of that? And considering what we all spend on aviation, a few thousand dollars for the most reliable ELT seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[bstratt]

I believe both Canada and Mexico will require the 406 installed on aircraft operating in their airspace. Portable won't count.

Ken, that's the way its currently written but I remember reading somewhere that AOPA was asking for an exception for planes not Canadian registered. Otherwise I think every plane that overflys a portion of Canadian airspace would technically be required to have one installed. If the FAA mandated it as well, it would remove the decision making on whether to upgrade or not.

 

[bstratt]

Now thats a thinker! We got folks that race to put the latest crash up on the web board But how many have been to some place remote I mean really remote where you can't get cell coverage

Fly up the northern shore of the St. Lawrence River from Septs-Isles to St Anthony, Nfld. I'm sure there are areas out west in the US that are the same.

 

[Ken Ibold]

The NOAA web site says that they record a "rescue" any time SARSAT/COSPAS is used as the primary means of detection or location. They're claiming, just for aviation in 2007, 30 people rescued in 19 incidents. So I guess I'm wondering how their methodology of crediting their system of ELT detection/location is different than the value judgement you're making in your research? For a crash victim, what do you mean by "timely fashion?" It could certainly be that these accidents would have been located and people rescued without the system. But were they found and aided maybe a little faster or more reliably or even less expensively because of the system?

As people have opined, it's certainly not a highly reliable system. Steve Fossett is an excellent example of where this system should have worked and didn't. I guess I look at this system as insurance. I wear a parachute when I fly acro even though there's not a great chance it'll help me. I'm considering a helmet now for the same reason. I hope to never have to use either but if I sleep better knowing I'm using them, what's the value of that? And considering what we all spend on aviation, a few thousand dollars for the most reliable ELT seems like a no brainer to me.

You raise legitimate points, and I don't disagree with any of them. However, I am generally skeptical of things like the SARSAT claims of rescues because government bureaucrats in particular seem inordinately motivated to take credit for stuff in order to preserve their budgets. So I went through every NTSB report, noting whether the ELT activated or not, and whether in the NTSB investigator's opinion the ELT aided the rescue. Several times an ELT beacon was heard and the system deployed, but by the time it got to the local level local search and rescue had already done the job through other notifications. Still, I believe SARSAT is counting those, in part to help justify its continued existence.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I believe both Canada and Mexico will require the 406 installed on aircraft operating in their airspace. Portable won't count.

Yup. Got to be a fixed 406 ELT. Here's how the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association summarized it:

"Here are the conditions that determine when an aircraft must be equipped with a 406 ELT:
-New manufactured aircraft will be required to have a 406 ELT or alternate means on Feb. 1, 2009;
-Any aircraft registered (new or used) following a change of ownership after Feb. 1, 2009 will be required to have a 406 ELT or alternate means;
-Aircraft operated in western Canadian airspace bounded on its east side by longitude W 80° (approximately the Quebec/Ontario border) and on its south side by Latitude N 55°, and aircraft operated in eastern Canadian airspace bounded on its west side by longitude W 80° and on its south side by Latitude N 50°, will be required to have a 406 ELT or alternate means on Feb. 1, 2009.
This means that any aircraft operating north of these latitudes, including aircraft transiting to and from Alaska, will be required to be equipped with 406 ELTs as of Feb. 1, 2009, with no transition permitted.
-For remaining aircraft, Transport Canada will permit the installation of the ELT to be done during the first annual inspection or other inspection (for those aircraft subject to an approved maintenance schedule) that occurs after Feb. 1, 2010."

The bold emphasis is mine, for the benefit of my American friends. This is an unfortunate thing for those wishing merely to go to Alaska. The whole thing is also unfortunate for Canadian owners, since the US isn't mandating the 406 yet and so manufacturer's aren't too eager to start building them. This leaves only a couple of ELT makers interested and without significant competition the prices are typically $1000 apiece when they would be more fairly priced at around $350. The Canadian market is around one-tenth that of the US and has little clout.



Dan

 

[gprellwitz]

after Feb. 1, 2009 will be required to have a 406 ELT or alternate means;

Dan, what are these "alternate means" of which they speak? Mightn't a portable 406 be one of them? (He asks hopefully, dreading the answer he just knows is coming...)

 

[Dan Thomas]

Dan, what are these "alternate means" of which they speak? Mightn't a portable 406 be one of them? (He asks hopefully, dreading the answer he just knows is coming...)

Another quote from that same article:

"I would like to emphasize that although Transport Canada says that alternatives to 406 ELTs are permitted, the words that Transport Canada has chosen for the regulation effectively makes no alternatives available or affordable for our sector at this time or for the foreseeable future. So, unless something changes as the regulation works its way into law, Canadian and foreign aircraft will be required to equip with 406."

So, the alternative to a 406 ELT is a 406 ELT. Perhaps they were thinking that we had our choice between two different brands of ELT

Dan