Poll: how long before carrying passengers?

Electric said:
After a checkride you have barely learned how to fly. You are still pretty much blind in the air. You emergency handling skills are limited at best. You just had the hardest flight you ever had that lasted 2 hours. How in the world is it ok to go on another flight during which you will not just have to fly the plane but also dedicate time to the first time passenger.

While the new rule that requires 1500hs to be eligible to work as a first officer is ridiculous on the other end of the scale, private pilot license is called a "license to learn" for a reason. At least take a day to rest, and only take those people who are really asking, for the first 50 hours.
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I don't know if I've ever flown as well as I did on the day of my check ride. Honestly, I'd rather ride with me then more so than now. I'd had a CFI and a DPE on my ass for the past several weeks scrutinizing my every move, one signed me off for a check ride and the other gave me a license.
 
kayoh190 said:
I dunno man, I was probably safer right after my checkride than a couple of hundred hours later. Same just after my instrument rating.
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You just think that way. :D For the very least, now you have developed those "motor" movements which will reduce the risk of stall in a difficult situation. And I'm sure you will handle emergency much better now than before. Safe flying is not about how well you can hold your heading and altitude.
 
Electric said:
After a checkride you have barely learned how to fly. You are still pretty much blind in the air. You emergency handling skills are limited at best. You just had the hardest flight you ever had that lasted 2 hours. How in the world is it ok to go on another flight during which you will not just have to fly the plane but also dedicate time to the first-time passenger.
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What on earth are you talking about? My checkride didn't last two hours (at least, not the flight part) and it wasn't all that hard. My long solo XC was MUCH longer, about 6 hours total. Anyway the DPE signs you off because he's satisfied that you are a safe pilot, including carrying passengers. It's a personal decision like so many in flying. If you don't have confidence to carry passengers then don't. But you are probably the most proficient you will ever be in those first days after the checkride.

Most important is your ADM -- as long as you don't push your personal limits with pax aboard, I don't see the problem.
 
azure said:
What on earth are you talking about? My checkride didn't last two hours (at least, not the flight part) and it wasn't all that hard. My long solo XC was MUCH longer, about 6 hours total. Anyway the DPE signs you off because he's satisfied that you are a safe pilot, including carrying passengers. It's a personal decision like so many in flying. If you don't have confidence to carry passengers then don't. But you are probably the most proficient you will ever be in those first days after the checkride.

Most important is your ADM -- as long as you don't push your personal limits with pax aboard, I don't see the problem.
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Don't compare some cross-country, it's much easier sitting in cruise than doing maneuvers for a checkride. As you pointed out, the DPE signs you off because he is satisfied that you're a safe pilot and have good ADM. Taking up a first time passenger just after you finished your checkride is not good ADM. You're tired, still inexperienced, and need to dedicate a significant amount of time to the passenger.
 
MachFly said:
Don't compare some cross-country, it's much easier sitting in cruise than doing maneuvers for a checkride. As you pointed out, the DPE signs you off because he is satisfied that you're a safe pilot and have good ADM. Taking up a first time passenger just after you finished your checkride is not good ADM. You're tired, still inexperienced, and need to dedicate a significant amount of time to the passenger.
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I wasn't tired, I know my wife and didn't have to dedicate anything to her. I'd already been up and knew the conditions. Had a CFI and a DPE sitting there handing me the keys to take my wife up. I'm not sure any of my ADM since has been as well thought out.
 
bartmc said:
I wasn't tired, I know my wife and didn't have to dedicate anything to her. I'd already been up and knew the conditions. Had a CFI and a DPE sitting there handing me the keys to take my wife up. I'm not sure any of my ADM since has been as well thought out.
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Both your CFI and DPE only make sure that you meet minimum FAA requirements. Minimum requirement are based on what a human can realistically learn in a few months of training part time or two-three week full time training. You are expected to learn the rest on your own. One of the two main tasks FAA has is to promote aviation. If they make the training too hard no one will want to learn to fly as a hobby. There is a reason you need much more training and much more hours to get commercial license. Even then no company will hire you to carry people just after commercial check-ride.
 
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Check ride in the morning took my wife up in the afternoon. She had flown along in the back seat on several lessons while I was training too. Just got my BFR after a 20 year lay off (took more than a couple hours) flew one time alone and then took my son up with me.

If I thought I was unprepared or there was a high risk involved for some reason I wouldn't fly myself.
 
Electric said:
Both your CFI and DPE only make sure that you meet minimum FAA requirements. Minimum requirement are based on what a human can realistically learn in a few months of training part time or two-three week full time training. You are expected to learn the rest on your own. One of the two main tasks FAA has is to promote aviation. If they make the training too hard no one will want to learn to fly as a hobby. There is a reason you need much more training and much more hours to get commercial license. Even then no company will hire you to carry people just after commercial check-ride.
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And there's plenty of 400 hr pilots who wouldn't meet that minimum requirement today. I knew full well my limitations, had performed an emergency landing in every field in the valley and had been up half an hour earlier and knew the conditions. I'd just done multiple types of landings and maneuvers. Recovered from a fully developed stall I put myself in with my eyes closed and the DPE blocking my forward visibility with a clipboard. Had my CFI and DPE tell me I was flying well. I'm not sure I could have done anything more to prep for the flight.
 
bartmc said:
And there's plenty of 400 hr pilots who wouldn't meet that minimum requirement today. I knew full well my limitations, had performed an emergency landing in every field in the valley and had been up half an hour earlier and knew the conditions. I'd just done multiple types of landings and maneuvers. Recovered from a fully developed stall I put myself in with my eyes closed and the DPE blocking my forward visibility with a clipboard. Had my CFI and DPE tell me I was flying well. I'm not sure I could have done anything more to prep for the flight.
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Yes, that's true. At that point, there is not much you can do. (Apart form taking a rest until the next day.) But I feel a new pilot should spend more time training on his own and gaining more experience for another half a year or so before taking other people up. Unless the passenger fully understands the risk. But that's just my opinion for new pilots to see and form their own opinions. (My rationale is in the posts above.) Different people manage risk differently. I know there are things that I have done in the past that some would call unsafe.
 
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Electric said:
Both your CFI and DPE only make sure that you meet minimum FAA requirements. Minimum requirement are based on what a human can realistically learn in a few months of training part time or two-three week full time training. You are expected to learn the rest on your own. One of the two main tasks FAA has is to promote aviation. If they make the training too hard no one will want to learn to fly as a hobby. There is a reason you need much more training and much more hours to get commercial license. Even then no company will hire you to carry people just after commercial check-ride.
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Well, that's like your opinion, man. I've never before heard anyone claim that the FAA has made it too easy to become a pilot, and I think that's just weird. :rolleyes:
An instructor/DPE friend of mine says that when she signs a solo endorsement, she is saying that she thinks a student is a safe pilot. When she signs an airman certificate, she is saying that the pilot is good enough to carry passengers. IOW, by the time the student gets to the checkride (and passes), he's already been a "pilot" for a while.

FWIW, I took my mom and my sister on rides the day I passed my private checkride. Looking back, I have 7 hours in the logbook that day.

My wife still has not flown with me.
 
Lets put a spin on it...

Your nice shiny airplane just came out of the shop having a Top overhaul....

How long before you fly a passenger?
 
1600vw said:
Lets put a spin on it...

Your nice shiny airplane just came out of the shop having a Top overhaul....

How long before you fly a passenger?
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Depends on where we are flying. From one 8000 foot airport in Kansas to another, maybe after 2 three hours. In the area where I am based (forested northeast) I'd need to put 10 - 15 hours to feel comfortable carrying passengers. But I've never been in such situation (never had my own airplane) so I would need to do a bit of research, talking to mechanics and read things before making such a decision in the real world.
 
Electric, Statistically speaking...
All the above people that took their friends up the same day or the next day are currently still alive and pilots.

Most pilots leading up to their checkride have been flying flying flying, eating sleeping, and breathing flying.

I flew my mom 2 days after (just a 30 min trip around a lake)
with in 3 weeks I flew my wife and 2 kids from Dallas to Tulsa.
We departed around 9 PM. :yikes:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Electric, Statistically speaking...
All the above people that took their friends up the same day or the next day are currently still alive and pilots.

Most pilots leading up to their checkride have been flying flying flying, eating sleeping, and breathing flying.

I flew my mom 2 days after (just a 30 min trip around a lake)
with in 3 weeks I flew my wife and 2 kids from Dallas to Tulsa.
We departed around 9 PM. :yikes:
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That is true. But I'm just not satisfied with this statistics. I feel that the passengers deserve higher safety margins.
 
How far along are you?
I don't want to make an assumption.

During my training I would have the same thought but near the end I was quite confident. I had taken both my mom, dad, and wife along on training flights. Dad is a pilot too. So no strangers to flying in my family.

And to be honest, when flying my kids (5&6) I checked, double checked, triple checked. I thought long and hard about what I was doing and did a lot of self assessment. I still do since they don't really get it.

That being said I think it is up to the pilot to determine if they are in the correct mindset and feel they can safely make a trip with passengers. If they can do that, I think it is fine.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How far along are you?
I don't want to make an assumption.

During my training I would have the same thought but near the end I was quite confident. I had taken both my mom, dad, and wife along on training flights. Dad is a pilot too. So no strangers to flying in my family.

And to be honest, when flying my kids (5&6) I checked, double checked, triple checked. I thought long and hard about what I was doing and did a lot of self assessment. I still do since they don't really get it.

That being said I think it is up to the pilot to determine if they are in the correct mindset and feel they can safely make a trip with passengers. If they can do that, I think it is fine.
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Not sure why my experience is relevant. I do carry passengers, including family, if that's what you are asking.

The reason I'm putting so much emphasis on pilot training is that, if you look at national statics. Depending on which calculations you look at there are 1.1 to 1.6 fatal accidents per each 100,000 hours flown. A person flying from age 20 to 70 averaging 100hs per year logs 5 thousand hours. Based on the statistics (and let's pick more optimistic 1.1 per 100k hours) this person's individual risk is 1 out of 18. In other words, statistically, 1 out of every 18 people who flies all his adult life dies in an aircraft accident. That's a pretty high risk in my book.

It is also known that about 70% of fatal accidents are caused by pilot error. Another 20% or so are mechanical in nature but could have been prevented by superior piloting skills. What this tells me is that an average pilot has a potential to improve his safety by 90% and improving his and his passengers' odds from 1 out of 18 to 1 out of 180.

1/18 is huge, 1/180 is negligible, when you compare these number to the risk of an average American dieing form unnatural causes of 1/25 (I forgot if it's 1/25 or 1/28, but for our purposes it's not a significant difference.)

Granted no one is perfect and you can't eliminate pilot error, but there is a huge potential to reduce it.
 
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timwinters said:
Ladies & Gentlemen, I think we have a new troll aboard.
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If you call logical discussions trolling sure. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

FYI, I read more than I post. You can look at my join date. ;)
 
Electric said:
If you call logical discussions trolling sure. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.
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Logical?

This:

Electric said:
After a checkride you have barely learned how to fly. You are still pretty much blind in the air. You emergency handling skills are limited at best.
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Is logical?

"Barely learned how to fly?"

You may have had a "K-Mart" CFI but I didn't. Mine was retired military and very conservative (frustratingly so). Plus I owned my plane and there were three airports close enough for him to sign me off for repeat XCs, so I did a LOT of solo flying before getting my ticket.

Thinking you know anything about anyone else's skill level on check ride day is illogical.

Thinking you know anything about how anyone else reacts to the stresses induced (if any) by taking the check ride is illogical.

Thinking you know that someone was tired and worn out from taking the check ride when you don't know if it was a 3 hour event or an 8 hour event is illogical.
 
My wife took me for a ride over to Kent Island the day after she got her pilot's license. She let me fly back however.

One thing to watch. If you've never had anybody in a four seater than your instructor, you will find the performance different (perhaps drastically). Margy's flight instructor grabbed me for human ballast a couple of times for students doing stage checks just so they could see how a 172 with the seats full flew. The scary part was one student tried to demonstrate a departure stall 30 feet above the runway. That's one of the few times I've ever heard what I call the "CFI Death Scream" where they are fighting the student on the controls to avoid imminent demise.
 
I had to check my logbook....first passenger was 3 weeks after checkride and 3 solo practice sessions in between. but that's just how it worked out (most of my friends are afraid to go up). now:

me at age 17-25: probably would have been fine taking pax same day as checkride
me today: nah, I wouldn't have taken pax same day....it was a long stressful day, I was fine just walking around the rest of that day with a huge smile on my face enjoying several tasty Guinnesses.
 
Electric said:
Not sure why my experience is relevant. I do carry passengers, including family, if that's what you are asking.
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No, I just didn't know if you were a student still.

At the end of the day it is about risk and managing that risk.
The one unfair thing the PAX don't have going for them is knowing the pilot's skillset, mood, health, and how his attitude could affect the flight. only PIC knows that.

I watch a lot of these crash videos knowing full well a plane full of people is about to die and hearing the pilot on the radio saying a lot of things that are red flags and the pax don't know they are red flags.

Look for the thread about dodging weather I posted.
Watch that AOPA video and the one someone posted a few posts down.
Listen to those guys. As pilots we can easily identify some key things that will lead to the eventual end which pax don't pick out. That is unfortunate.

But in the end, there will always be crashes in planes, cars, boats, motorcycles. It is the PIC, DIC, BIC, MIC that needs to assess whether they are capable of adding other people to their vehicles. It is their responsibility to do so.





*DIC: Driver in Command
When I get in my car I assume that title. I inform everyone "Look here, I am the DIC here and what I say goes. Don't touch my radio, don't kick the back of my seat, and keep your voices down. Please don't forget who the real DIC is here people."

Boater in Command; Motorcyclist in command
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
....*DIC: Driver in Command
When I get in my car I assume that title. I inform everyone "Look here, I am the DIC here and what I say goes. Don't touch my radio, don't kick the back of my seat, and keep your voices down. Please don't forget who the real DIC is here people."

Boater in Command; Motorcyclist in command
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you have also proven yourself as PIC*


*Poster in Command :goofy: :goofy: :goofy:
 
Next time I flew, which was 2 days after I passed the checkride.
 
My very next flight and several in a row afterwards.
 
For me it was just over a month, but that had more to do with life than concern. The day I passed my check ride the weather closed in with low clouds and rain within an hour of finishing. Then I got checked out in two other club planes (because the one I took my check ride in was not making rated power and I wasn't flying it any more until it was fixed.) I did one more solo flight because it was taking so long to get my wife (whom I had promised the first ride to) and my schedule to align.

Anyway, I was ready to take folks-within my comfort zone-the day of.

John
 
Lindberg said:
Well, that's like your opinion, man. I've never before heard anyone claim that the FAA has made it too easy to become a pilot, and I think that's just weird. :rolleyes:
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It is too easy to become a pilot, anyone with enough money and patience can do it.
 
Those that haven't instructed don't realize how "bad" the average pilot gets over time. The majority of pilots I fly with would not be able to pass a private pilot checkride right now without significant training.

The majority of instrument pilots out there, weekend warrior type, would need 20 hours of training (at best) before they'd be able to pass their instrument ride again. And yes, they are flying in the system.

If I send someone for a checkride I would feel confident tossing them the keys to the plane afterwords and sending a passenger I care about with them. If I wouldn't be comfortable with that I wouldn't send them to a checkride.
 
I was allowed to carry a passenger when I was a student as long as the CFI was in the plane. Took my SIL on a night flight.
 
I flew passengers as soon as weather and aircraft availability allowed. That being said, my first time up with passengers was a local flight in near perfect weather conditions. I flew to several airports that I had been to before during training, and the whole flight was well within my comfort zone. Cross country flights to locations that were new to me waited until I had a little more experience with non-pilot passengers along for the ride, but honestly that did not take long either.
 
jesse said:
Those that haven't instructed don't realize how "bad" the average pilot gets over time. The majority of pilots I fly with would not be able to pass a private pilot checkride right now without significant training.

The majority of instrument pilots out there, weekend warrior type, would need 20 hours of training (at best) before they'd be able to pass their instrument ride again. And yes, they are flying in the system.
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That Jesse is amazing. He knows so much about my flying without ever riding right seat. Jonsey and me are still waiting for some hints on the direct-to function.....:goofy:for now I'll just keep flying along and land every now and then to ask where I am!
 
Clark1961 said:
That Jesse is amazing. He knows so much about my flying without ever riding right seat. Jonsey and me are still waiting for some hints on the direct-to function.....:goofy:for now I'll just keep flying along and land every now and then to ask where I am!
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You may not know this (no reason to expect that you would), but Jesse is, in fact, The World's Greatest Pilot (tm). :yes:

---

As for the original question, next day - my wife, when I suggested that maybe I should get a little more experience, said, "WHY? You're good enough for the FAA, that's good enough for me." So, we did a little sight-seeing expedition the next day. Good fun.

She has been finding us destinations ever since!
 
SCCutler said:
You may not know this (no reason to expect that you would), but Jesse is, in fact, The World's Greatest Pilot (tm). :yes:

---

As for the original question, next day - my wife, when I suggested that maybe I should get a little more experience, said, "WHY? You're good enough for the FAA, that's good enough for me." So, we did a little sight-seeing expedition the next day. Good fun.

She has been finding us destinations ever since!
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Is she taking or planning to take lessons?
 
Clark1961 said:
That Jesse is amazing. He knows so much about my flying without ever riding right seat. Jonsey and me are still waiting for some hints on the direct-to function.....:goofy:for now I'll just keep flying along and land every now and then to ask where I am!
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I don't expect you to be the average pilot.

Believe me, the average pilot is not spending their time reading about aviation on forums. They never think about it, get in their plane once or twice a year, and have been flying like that for the last 20 years doing the absolute minimum to barely keep things legal. You don't really know what's out there until you start riding with them. I've flown with aircraft owners that have flown less than 30 hours in the last 10 years TOTAL that they've owned their airplane.

It's incredibly rare that I do a flight review or IPC with a pilot that ends up performing like the people I've flown with on this site do.
 
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