Poll: Do you always use electronic navigation on long XC trips?

Do you fly XC without electronic navigation?

  • Not since my checkride.

    Votes: 40 37.0%

  • Tried it once or twice but not for a long time.

    Votes: 9 8.3%

  • Sometimes when I feel like it.

    Votes: 41 38.0%

  • Often or always (what no GPS for you?).

    Votes: 18 16.7%
  • Total voters
    108
gismo

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iGismo
Once you passed your PPL checkride have you continued to make trips using nothing but pilotage (chart marked with the route and visual checkpoints every 10-20nm along with a flight log to track your progress) and no electronic navigation (i.e no GPS, VOR, ADF, AN range)? I'm not talking about flights covering the same ground between two airports that you've flown often enough to get there without turning on the GPS or short hops to a nearby field but rather honest to gosh XC trips to new places that are far enough away that you actually plan a specific route.
 
When I passed my PP ride, GPS didn't exist (nor did LORAN for light planes), and there were a lot of places where VOR's were few and far between, so on my first big trip after PP, we did the full flight log/whiz wheel routine and drew lines on charts from airport to airport. Forty years and 10,000 hours later, I'm still happy jumping in a plane with nothing but a sectional and the basic instruments and going from here to there with my finger tracing the route on the sectional.
 
well i usually use whatever is available. in the early days of my XC glider flying all I had was a map so that is what I used. now I've got a GPS and love it. I think pretty much all of my airplane cross countries have at least involved the occasional use of a VOR except for the trip I did from Ames to Beaumont, KS and almost back in Matt's Flybaby which had nothing but a handheld comm radio. That was a fun trip
 
I'll always use something as a backup, perhaps VORs. GPS if available.

But I'm not at all averse to flying IFR (I Follow Roads) for a long cross-country, especially in mountainous terrain. A straight line is not always the correct trajectory.
 
I can't speak about what I have done recently since we virtually always fly IFR, however back in the day I would fly around without tuning any VORs. Either I was familiar enough with the landmarks or I would use a chart. The magenta line was something I had never heard of at that time. I think I would be comfortable doing it again, given the chance.
 
Why would I ignore the equipment in the plane? I often have a sectional up on my tablet even if flying IFR just as a backup but the primary nav is going to be the best device I have available.
 
I normally through my flight bag in the back seat when I go on x/cs, I have a GPS in that.

Unless I am going into unfamiliar featureless areas, or suspecting possible bad wx, I just use my paper chart and eyeballs, it's alot more fun to look outside then at a screen (hence why I'm not a accountant or something).
 
GPS is a go-no go for me on my 400+nm trip across featureless non-coastal TX. Dead reckoning (while hand flying no less) through that kind of distance would be a PITA. There's no extra points for ''look, I can jab my eyeball out doing repetitive math six times a month reinventing the wheel guys" after your ticket is in the wallet. It's a necessary airmanship skill for diverts and equipment failures, but would otherwise be a fastidious way of discouraging me from flying long distances for personal/recreational purposes.
 
I'll use GPS and/or VOR, but always have the chart handy and know where I am on it. I have the route marked on the chart, but I don't do checkpoints or record times. I suppose if I were flying over a long stretch with no nearby airports, I might do that too -- just in case of an electrical system failure or some other highly unlikely event.
 
Why would you NOT use GPS?

When I learned to fly only the military had it. Plotting long cross country flights was a "6-charts-spread-all-over-the-dining-room" affair. Heck, I remember spending an hour planning a simple 100 mile flight to Illinois from our home base in Wisconsin.

This year, for the first time, ever, we embarked on our epic, 2600-mile trek to OSH without a single paper chart on board. My flight prep took less time than a hamburger run used to take.

It's a brave, new world, and I like it -- a lot.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
I think the only post-PPC flight where I didn't use some form of electronic navigation was before my commercial practical. Realizing that I hadn't done one in quite some time, I decided to to a down-and-dirty ded reckoning/pilotage flight leaving all navaids off. That was about 18 years ago.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Why would you NOT use GPS?
Click to expand...

1. You're flying VFR in mountain conditions and following the twists and turns of a river with a magenta line is much more heads-down time than you should tolerate under that circumstance. Your trajectory is determined by terrain (right side of valleys, crossing ridges at 45 deg, etc.), and it wasn't designed with GPS in mind.

2. You're approaching a nontowered airport in VFR conditions on a really nice Saturday afternoon in the summer, and having your head down risks a mid-air.

3. You're flying over a VOR in VFR conditions at a VFR altitude.

4. Your engine is running rough over the city and can see at least one airport nearby that wasn't on your flight plan.

There are quite a number of reasons not to use a GPS for at least part of a flight.
 
MAKG1 said:
1. You're flying VFR in mountain conditions and following the twists and turns of a river with a magenta line is much more heads-down time than you should tolerate under that circumstance. Your trajectory is determined by terrain (right side of valleys, crossing ridges at 45 deg, etc.), and it wasn't designed with GPS in mind.

2. You're approaching a nontowered airport in VFR conditions on a really nice Saturday afternoon in the summer, and having your head down risks a mid-air.

3. You're flying over a VOR in VFR conditions at a VFR altitude.

4. Your engine is running rough over the city and can see at least one airport nearby that wasn't on your flight plan.

There are quite a number of reasons not to use a GPS for at least part of a flight.
Click to expand...

Perhaps if you learned to scan this would not be so much of a issue for you. You really don't have to stare at the instrument to use it.
 
MAKG1 said:
There are quite a number of reasons not to use a GPS for at least part of a flight.
Click to expand...
From the OP:
I'm not talking about flights covering the same ground between two airports that you've flown often enough to get there without turning on the GPS or short hops to a nearby field but rather honest to gosh XC trips to new places that are far enough away that you actually plan a specific route.
Click to expand...
So, yeah, obviously anyone with a lick of sense would be not be blindly staring at the GPS screen to the exclusion of all else. For routine X/C navigation, though, if it's there in the plane I can't think of a good reason not to use it -- other than once in a while just to make sure you still CAN navigate without it.
 
I haven't done one in awhile but once I finish my checkout in the j-3 I think it will become a semi-regular thing.
 
I use what is available. That means that the GPS is in use and so is the chart. VORs are dialed in and cross-checked.

So, the day that the alternator died mid-flight and the GPS was toast, I already knew where we were on the chart and could plot a course to the nearest airport following the river.
 
MAKG1 said:
1. You're flying VFR in mountain conditions and following the twists and turns of a river with a magenta line is much more heads-down time than you should tolerate under that circumstance. Your trajectory is determined by terrain (right side of valleys, crossing ridges at 45 deg, etc.), and it wasn't designed with GPS in mind.

2. You're approaching a nontowered airport in VFR conditions on a really nice Saturday afternoon in the summer, and having your head down risks a mid-air.

3. You're flying over a VOR in VFR conditions at a VFR altitude.

4. Your engine is running rough over the city and can see at least one airport nearby that wasn't on your flight plan.

There are quite a number of reasons not to use a GPS for at least part of a flight.
Click to expand...

"Using" a GPS doesn't mean you are limited to only what it shows. When I want to check out something on the ground, I'm not locked in to following the magenta line.

But it's still there after I've deviated -- a very nice thing, indeed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
AuntPeggy said:
I use what is available. That means that the GPS is in use and so is the chart. VORs are dialed in and cross-checked.

So, the day that the alternator died mid-flight and the GPS was toast, I already knew where we were on the chart and could plot a course to the nearest airport following the river.
Click to expand...

You lost your GPS because the alternator took a dump?

For me to lose GPS in flight, I would have to lose the 496, the Nexus 7, the Lowrance, and two smart phones. Nothing short of an EMP could do that -- at which point navigating becomes the least of my worries...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
On long trips that I'm not sightseeing on GPS Direct is the most effecient way to do it.
 
DaleB said:
So, yeah, obviously anyone with a lick of sense would be not be blindly staring at the GPS screen to the exclusion of all else.
Click to expand...

Sure, that's true.

It's also true that I have to dodge people "without a lick of sense" almost every time I fly on a nice weekend day. So, it wouldn't seem that it's all that obvious to everyone....

Yes, "scanning" will get your eyes out the window. It will still take some of your attention, devoted to something you don't (or shouldn't) need. GPS is great as a standby device for VFR, but there are some situations where you need your eyes outside the aircraft as much as possible.

Far more important than the scanning issue is the effort it takes to change it. For that not to be a factor, you have to be willing to abandon anything you have programmed into that GPS. Sure that's possible. It's also much more difficult than it sounds.

Are we flying an airplane or an iPad?
 
MAKG1 said:
Sure, that's true.

It's also true that I have to dodge people "without a lick of sense" almost every time I fly on a nice weekend day. So, it wouldn't seem that it's all that obvious to everyone....

Yes, "scanning" will get your eyes out the window. It will still take some of your attention, devoted to something you don't (or shouldn't) need. GPS is great as a standby device for VFR, but there are some situations where you need your eyes outside the aircraft as much as possible.

Far more important than the scanning issue is the effort it takes to change it. For that not to be a factor, you have to be willing to abandon anything you have programmed into that GPS. Sure that's possible. It's also much more difficult than it sounds.

Are we flying an airplane or an iPad?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need to learn how to use a GPS. I program my route on the ramp. If I need to change it, it would probably be due to an emergency. Just hit the Nearest button. You get immediate access to the closest airports, runway information, frequencies, etc. It also gives me enroute weather (XM). Having a GPS on my yoke definately reduces my workload and adds safety to the flight. I feel like I have considerably less heads down time with a GPS, than I do with unfolding and folding a chart, tracking my waypoints and writing down times. If you are following a river up a canyon, you probably don't need to look at the GPS during that time.
 
What makes you think you either have to draw any marks on the chart or pick out way points every 20 miles to use pilotage? I regularly went from central ohio to Chicago without electronic nav. Just look out the window (helps that there are rail and highways that are almost dead straight between Columbus and Gary, IN).

I can go from my place in CJR down to my place at NC26 pretty much by looking out the window as well and I don't even need a map.
 
John221us said:
Sounds like you need to learn how to use a GPS. I program my route on the ramp. If I need to change it, it would probably be due to an emergency. Just hit the Nearest button. You get immediate access to the closest airports, runway information, frequencies, etc. It also gives me enroute weather (XM). Having a GPS on my yoke definately reduces my workload and adds safety to the flight. I feel like I have considerably less heads down time with a GPS, than I do with unfolding and folding a chart, tracking my waypoints and writing down times. If you are following a river up a canyon, you probably don't need to look at the GPS during that time.
Click to expand...

Nope. I use a Garmin 430 regularly, plus an Aspen glass panel and S-TEC autopilot. I just pay attention to what my workload actually is, rather than what I might want it to be. There are some flights for which the GPS is useful. There are some for which it is not. And there are some situations in any flight where it becomes a distraction.

If I'm in crowded airspace with good landmarks and well defined flyways for Class B (or else a clearance), the GPS is the first thing to go. It is not necessary. If I'm flying in the mountains, it's just wrong.

I've used the "direct" button a large number of times -- it's the order of business for VFR changes in the air. It's several seconds of heads-down time that might be critical, depending on the nature of the diversion.

It seems rather common for people to get attached to their gadgets. They are tools, nothing more.

It also seems that quite a lot of people very seriously overestimate the "safety" that an additional heads-down device affords.
 
To quote a friend, "It depends". Which plane am I flying? Only one plane in the club has an approach certified GPS. The GPS in the Arrow has a short memory, it oftentimes forgets what I told it to track. Might be a cockpit problem. The 182 and 172P don't have GPS. Some planes have DME, others don't. What they all have is current charts, a clock and a compass. The charts because I carry them and only have the up to date version on board. VORs in all of them, but when I can see the landmarks I need and I'm flying VFR, why mess with the toys? Enjoy the flight.
 
I don't have a GPS, never used a GPS, and haven't gotten lost yet. What's the big deal? Y'all lazy or something?
 
Ron Levy said:
When I passed my PP ride, GPS didn't exist (nor did LORAN for light planes), and there were a lot of places where VOR's were few and far between, so on my first big trip after PP, we did the full flight log/whiz wheel routine and drew lines on charts from airport to airport. Forty years and 10,000 hours later, I'm still happy jumping in a plane with nothing but a sectional and the basic instruments and going from here to there with my finger tracing the route on the sectional.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Nowadays I usually have FF up also, but I'm completely comfortable if it decides to have a bad hair day.
 
When crossing "fly-over" country, follow the magenta line. I do follow along on the chart when there is something to identify (town, highway, rail line, etc.).

When over the hills, there's a lot of: "Hmmm, I wanna go thata way, where's the low points and how do I get through'em?" If I do crank it up high then I turn on the autopilot...
 
gismo said:
Once you passed your PPL checkride have you continued to make trips using nothing but pilotage (chart marked with the route and visual checkpoints every 10-20nm along with a flight log to track your progress) and no electronic navigation (i.e no GPS, VOR, ADF, AN range)? I'm not talking about flights covering the same ground between two airports that you've flown often enough to get there without turning on the GPS or short hops to a nearby field but rather honest to gosh XC trips to new places that are far enough away that you actually plan a specific route.
Click to expand...

Sort of. I didn't know if I would need to stop for fuel, so although I had a yoke mounted GPS (not really used) and an iPad (definitely used), I did print out flight plans for myself and my passenger, along with photos of the 6 waypoints (airports) so I'd see them from above. I used a stop watch and asked my passenger boyfriend to write down waypoints, I calculated fuel / time / etc. and at my mid way point, when we were about 20 -40 minutes ahead due to a tailwind, I made the decision to NOT stop for gas.

I have since wanted to fly XC using no electronic gadgets. I might just try that out this weekend (on Saturday), I have a 1-2 hour XC to a place I've never been. It is on the coast so you can't really miss it.
 
I'm in the "use what's available" camp, pretty much. I think I did a pure pilotage flight to JXN about 3 years ago when I first joined my flying club (and hadn't been there in long enough that there was some challenge to it) but not since. I'm probably overdue for one, but for quite a few months after buying my airplane I was spending a lot of time learning the GPS by trying something new every time I flew.

Even when I'm flying the CDI though, I follow along on the sectional and try to make sure I can identify stuff and know where I am. I agree though that it's not quite the same thing as flying by pilotage alone, which is a useful and important skill to keep up for when the electrons stop flowing.
 
MAKG1 said:
If I'm flying in the mountains, it's just wrong.
Click to expand...
Maybe with a Garmin 430, but I can say that I have found the Garmin Aera and my iPad with Foreflight sectionals and gps input to be VERY useful when flying VFR in unfamiliar mountain areas.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe with a Garmin 430, but I can say that I have found the Garmin Aera and my iPad with Foreflight sectionals and gps input to be VERY useful when flying VFR in unfamiliar mountain areas.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

You don't have the kind of mountains I'm talking about within a thousand miles of Virginia. It's trivial if you can overfly all the peaks by thousands of feet. At least in daytime VMC.
 
MAKG1 said:
You don't have the kind of mountains I'm talking about within a thousand miles of Virginia. It's trivial if you can overfly all the peaks by thousands of feet. At least in daytime VMC.
Click to expand...
I guess you must be new here.....the Navy just moved me to Virginia from SoCal a month ago. Done quite a bit of mountain flying in the southwest. I was referring to recent trips in the Rockies.....you know where the mountain peaks are higher than some non-turbo service ceilings?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
MAKG1 said:
You don't have the kind of mountains I'm talking about within a thousand miles of Virginia. It's trivial if you can overfly all the peaks by thousands of feet. At least in daytime VMC.
Click to expand...

I love using a WAAS GPS in the mountains. The terrain page is a great way to get a 3rd opinion about whether or not you are going to clear a pass. 1st Eyeballs, 2nd Sectional, 3rd GPS.

And yes I've flown over big rocks just like you have in California.
 
I was taught single pilot CRM. That doesn't mean I might not dim the GPS or turn the nav radio off to effectively practice with other devices.
 
Altho I have a handheld GPS, and it's always loaded with the anticipated route, the paper maps are on the seat and the current map is usually in my hand. I don't remember the last time I created the flight log with estimated times, but I'm always looking out the window at the landmarks and comparing to the map.

Caveat: VFR flights only.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I love using a WAAS GPS in the mountains. The terrain page is a great way to get a 3rd opinion about whether or not you are going to clear a pass. 1st Eyeballs, 2nd Sectional, 3rd GPS.

And yes I've flown over big rocks just like you have in California.
Click to expand...

So how are the repairs coming along? Still waiting for Beegles to get you into the shop?
 
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