PoA Jet Ski Project

Battery was toast. Bought a new one.

Put it in the ski. Still had the red(+) cable bypassing the e-box. Connected it to positive battery terminal. Then went to connect the black cable to the negative. Nasty spark, and a noise in the ski that seemed like it perhaps trying to turn over. Hmm. Kill switch is out, ignition is off.

I'm giving that some thought before I move forward with DocMirror's test. Ahh, the trials and tribulations of a newbie. :D

[Edit] Maybe I'm bypassing the kill switch and ignition? Lemme look...not gonna' try again (will run Doc's test instead), but I am trying to diagnose what happened.
 
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asechrest said:
Battery was toast. Bought a new one.

Put it in the ski. Still had the red(+) cable bypassing the e-box. Connected it to positive battery terminal. Then went to connect the black cable to the negative. Nasty spark, and a noise in the ski that seemed like it perhaps trying to turn over. Hmm. Kill switch is out, ignition is off.

I'm giving that some thought before I move forward with DocMirror's test. Ahh, the trials and tribulations of a newbie. :D
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Well it is a fairly substantial amount of current so a spark is to be expected when you just connect it hot like that. Did it turn over or just click?

How exactly do you have things wired right now?

Are you going directly from the battery to the starter?
 
jesse said:
Well it is a fairly substantial amount of current so a spark is to be expected when you just connect it hot like that. Did it turn over or just click?

How exactly do you have things wired right now?

Are you going directly from the battery to the starter?
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It wasn't just a click. I averted my eyes (lol), but it sounded like the driveshaft making a rotation.

As far as how I have it wired, I just left it as I had it last night and connected the battery up, which was probably a mistake. Bypassing the ebox on the positive side (in other words, taking the red cable that runs from the engine and connecting directly to + battery terminal rather than to the ebox), and then taking black cable and connecting to - terminal as usual.

But now that I'm looking at the routing diagram (attached), it looks like the start/stop switch, the main switch, the magneto, and the temperature sensor leads run out of the ebox. Sooo, my bypassing them is probably the reason for the spark a attempt to turn over?
 

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asechrest said:
It wasn't just a click. I averted my eyes (lol), but it sounded like the driveshaft making a rotation.

As far as how I have it wired, I just left it as I had it last night and connected the battery up, which was probably a mistake. Bypassing the ebox on the positive side (in other words, taking the red cable that runs from the engine and connecting directly to + battery terminal rather than to the ebox), and then taking black cable and connecting to - terminal as usual.

But now that I'm looking at the routing diagram (attached), it looks like the start/stop switch, the main switch, the magneto, and the temperature sensor leads run out of the ebox. Sooo, my bypassing them is probably the reason for the spark a attempt to turn over?
Click to expand...

All you know by doing the bypass is that the cables, the battery, and the starter work. Assuming it turned over you also now know it's not locked up. That's good knowledge.

Now you need to look at everything in the starting and ignition circuit (kill switch, etc, etc) and test each component until you find the one not working right.

Always understand what you are testing and what the result means.

I don't have an electrical diagram in front of me but I would be testing the start relay first. If the relay is receiving the power that should fire it and isn't working then I would replace it. If it's not getting what it needs then trace up the circuit until you find out what's not telling the relay to fire.
 
jesse said:
All you know by doing the bypass is that the cables, the battery, and the starter work. Assuming it turned over you also now know it's not locked up. That's good knowledge.

Now you need to look at everything in the starting and ignition circuit (kill switch, etc, etc) and test each component until you find the one not working right.

Always understand what you are testing and what the result means.

I don't have an electrical diagram in front of me but I would be testing the start relay first. If the relay is receiving the power that should fire it and isn't working then I would replace it. If it's not getting what it needs then trace up the circuit until you find out what's not telling the relay to fire.
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Understood. It just surprised me to see it try to fire up the moment I touched it to the terminal. I expected to be protected by the kill switch and the ignition. I should be more careful bypassing sh*t that I don't understand. :yes:
 
I don't understand why you are bypassing things and trying to get the starter to turn. I would hook everything up correctly, then try it. If it doesn't start you can begin to trouble shoot. Start with spark, then fuel. Pretty simple, if there is no spark, then you need to start going through the ignition system. No crank? You know from the seller and your test that the starter is ok, so check out the relay. Simple steps, one at a time.

Good luck.
 
asechrest said:
Understood. It just surprised me to see it try to fire up the moment I touched it to the terminal. I expected to be protected by the kill switch and the ignition. I should be more careful bypassing sh*t that I don't understand. :yes:
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Now you know :) Give power to a starter and it's going to crank on any starter I've ever seen.
 
PaulS said:
I don't understand why you are bypassing things and trying to get the starter to turn. I would hook everything up correctly, then try it. If it doesn't start you can begin to trouble shoot. Start with spark, then fuel. Pretty simple, if there is no spark, then you need to start going through the ignition system. No crank? You know from the seller and your test that the starter is ok, so check out the relay. Simple steps, one at a time.

Good luck.
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Because I didn't take Doc's advice. :redface:

Heading back out to the garage to hook it up correctly and go from there.
 
When you have everything hooked up correctly, try it out. If it doesn't crank, make sure you are getting power to the relay coil. You should get 12 VDC across the yellow/red wire and the black wire that go to the relay. If you are getting this voltage, then it is likely the starter relay that is a problem. If you are not getting 12V to the yellow/red wire, make sure the stop switch is set to run however that happens, if that is ok, then trace that wire back the start switch. It looks like it goes thru several connectors. Undo each connector and check continuity on each length.

But it may have just been the dead battery that was causing the problem.

If not, I have a feeling that the relay is bad based what you wrote before, so it may start after you replace it.

But, someone else suggested that you make sure the gas is good. If it smells like gas it is probably ok, if it smells like varnish, get it out before you attempt to start it, you don't want to be sucking crap through the carbs, you will have a lot of aggravation.

Good luck.
 
PaulS said:
When you have everything hooked up correctly, try it out. If it doesn't crank, make sure you are getting power to the relay coil. You should get 12 VDC across the yellow/red wire and the black wire that go to the relay. If you are getting this voltage, then it is likely the starter relay that is a problem. If you are not getting 12V to the yellow/red wire, make sure the stop switch is set to run however that happens, if that is ok, then trace that wire back the start switch. It looks like it goes thru several connectors. Undo each connector and check continuity on each length.

But it may have just been the dead battery that was causing the problem.

If not, I have a feeling that the relay is bad based what you wrote before, so it may start after you replace it.

But, someone else suggested that you make sure the gas is good. If it smells like gas it is probably ok, if it smells like varnish, get it out before you attempt to start it, you don't want to be sucking crap through the carbs, you will have a lot of aggravation.

Good luck.
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What he says. Seriously man. I wouldn't even risk it, even if your carbs might already be hosed, it's still not worth the risk. Rebuilding the three carbs, the two fuel pumps, setting the pop-off pressure, syncing, tuning, etc is a lot of work even if you know what you're doing.

I was able to yank the gas tank out of mine and all the fuel hoses and clean all of it in about two hours. Worth the time. I removed every hose and blew compressed air through them then looked at them with a flashlight and replaced any that didn't look perfectly clean. The gas tank I power washed until it was sparkling. Then put a new fuel filter on.
 
I don't think the tank comes out unless the engine does first? I expect to siphon it out, clean the fuel filter, and inspect fuel lines.
 
asechrest said:
I don't think the tank comes out unless the engine does first? I expect to siphon it out, clean the fuel filter, and inspect fuel lines.
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Check the service manual. On mine it slid out the front of the ski with minimal effort. Just two straps holding it in and a few things you need to get out of the way.
 
jesse said:
Check the service manual. On mine it slid out the front of the ski with minimal effort. Just two straps holding it in and a few things you need to get out of the way.
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First instruction in fuel tank removal section:

  • Remove or disconnect:
  • Engine

Hah! Also measured the tank and it wouldn't fit through the bow storage hole.
 
When you put your ebox back together, make sure you seal it up really good. You don't want any way for water to get into the electronics. Those parts can get pricey in a hurry. You would probably be wise to not reuse the gasket that was on there unless it is absolutely perfect.

If you find that you have a problem in the electrical box, save yourself the headache and send it off to Atlantic Jet Sports for repair. Getting those boxes back together and sealed up can be a real pain in the butt.

If you wind up having to throw more than a couple hundred bucks at this ski, I'd recommend selling it to someone as a parts ski and pick up a Yamaha GP760. Those engines are practically bulletproof and many people say it is the best engine Yamaha ever made. You can pick up a good, running GP760 or even a GP1200 for less than $2000 and get years of use from it with minimal headaches.

If you do stick with the Kawi, and get it running, convert it to premix to get rid of the oil injection system. Oil lines can pop off, you can run out of oil, etc. Either of those happen and you get to buy a new engine. Keep a 20oz soda bottle with oil in it for refueling. Measure off enough for 5 gallons at 40:1 and toss the bottle in the front storage bucket so you can refuel on the lake if needed.

And do a lot of reading on Green Hulk and PWC Today.
 
The only waty to get spark to the igniter and the coils is to have the plus side of the batt to the batt teminal on the e-box and the red wire from the starter to the starter terminal. If the start relay is locked closed then the engine will crank as soon as the big red cable touches the e-box terminal.

Take all the wires off the back of the ignition switch to insure the start enable is not connected. Then try putting the two big red wires on the e-box. If the engine still tries to crank then likely the starter relay is shorted and will need to be replaced. If you get the two big red wired attached correctly to the e-box with the engine not cranking, then try touching the small red off the back of the ignition to the small red/white trace. The engine may crank which indicates a short in the green start button on the handle.
 
docmirror said:
The only waty to get spark to the igniter and the coils is to have the plus side of the batt to the batt teminal on the e-box and the red wire from the starter to the starter terminal. If the start relay is locked closed then the engine will crank as soon as the big red cable touches the e-box terminal.

Take all the wires off the back of the ignition switch to insure the start enable is not connected. Then try putting the two big red wires on the e-box. If the engine still tries to crank then likely the starter relay is shorted and will need to be replaced. If you get the two big red wired attached correctly to the e-box with the engine not cranking, then try touching the small red off the back of the ignition to the small red/white trace. The engine may crank which indicates a short in the green start button on the handle.
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Doc: backtracked slightly tonight to work on getting the old fuel out. After folks mentioned it above, I realized I'd hate to have it fire up and circulate that 2+ year old gas through it. Not going to be able to remove the tank, so I spent my final minutes in the garage taking the fuel level stick and the pickup out to get to the fuel filters, and will try to siphon the old fuel out tomorrow.

I'll shoot for weekend or early next week to circle back around and hook the ebox back up correctly.
 
You really need to be methodical about this or you are going to cause yourself a lot of frustration. Yes, the first thing you need to do is assure fresh clean fuel to the engine. You will likely have to flush the system with acetone if you have any solidification of fuel at all. I typically do this hooking up a squeeze ball fuel line into a can of acetone and pumping it in.
 
Do not rebuild the carbs now. I have not rebuilt carbs in the past 13 years of wrenching on vehicles. I do not regret this decision.
 
Cleaning them out is all I usually have to do, but I've never done a jet ski, mine are fuel injected. That said, I would use canned carb cleaner over acetone, acetone is nasty stuff and a solvent to many plastics...
 
Thanks all for the advice. I know we won't get total consensus on everything, but I take it all into account. Henning's advice to be methodical is good. I have no real timetable on this and am just working in the evenings. Having forgotten my intent to siphon out the old gas, I'm rewinding to that point. Here are my next steps:

  1. Take care of the old gas. I smelled it and it's not bad, but doesn't smell quite right to me. I've got the fuel pickup/filter assembly unmounted and off the tank. There are two fuel pickup lines (or is one a return line? need to look more closely) with sorta-cylindrical-shaped filters on the ends. One of the filters appears to be missing the plastic end-cap. Might look for new filters. I plan to siphon the old gas out of that opening. I'll check the siphoned gas for any solidifying. I'll also see if I can get a picture of inside the fuel tank to look for any sediment or junk in there. Assuming no junk and no fuel solidifying, should I bother doing anything with the fuel lines before I move on to the testing of other stuff? They don't feel brittle. I can't see the inside of them, obviously. The fuel lines appear to be above the tank and cylinder vertical height. So does this mean most of the length of these lines should be empty since it's been sitting for so long (e.g. not have old fuel in them)?
  2. Fill with some fresh fuel to prepare for testing. There's plenty of 2-cycle oil in the oil tank.
  3. Hook up the power through the ebox just as designed and see if it cranks or starts. If not, move on to testing per DocMirror and others above, one component at a time.
 
If you have no evidence of varnishing, just make sure the bowls on the carbs get drained (there is a screw to pull for this typically) and you get fresh fuel pumped up refilling them.
 
Make sure all the gas vapors are out of the bilge before doing anything electrical or trying to start.....
 
asechrest said:
Thanks all for the advice. I know we won't get total consensus on everything, but I take it all into account. Henning's advice to be methodical is good. I have no real timetable on this and am just working in the evenings. Having forgotten my intent to siphon out the old gas, I'm rewinding to that point. Here are my next steps:

  1. Take care of the old gas. I smelled it and it's not bad, but doesn't smell quite right to me. I've got the fuel pickup/filter assembly unmounted and off the tank. There are two fuel pickup lines (or is one a return line? need to look more closely) with sorta-cylindrical-shaped filters on the ends. One of the filters appears to be missing the plastic end-cap. Might look for new filters. I plan to siphon the old gas out of that opening. I'll check the siphoned gas for any solidifying. I'll also see if I can get a picture of inside the fuel tank to look for any sediment or junk in there. Assuming no junk and no fuel solidifying, should I bother doing anything with the fuel lines before I move on to the testing of other stuff? They don't feel brittle. I can't see the inside of them, obviously. The fuel lines appear to be above the tank and cylinder vertical height. So does this mean most of the length of these lines should be empty since it's been sitting for so long (e.g. not have old fuel in them)?
  2. Fill with some fresh fuel to prepare for testing. There's plenty of 2-cycle oil in the oil tank.
  3. Hook up the power through the ebox just as designed and see if it cranks or starts. If not, move on to testing per DocMirror and others above, one component at a time.
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One hose is for normal fuel, the other is for reserve fuel (lower pickup) and the other is a return. If it's anything like mine and I suspect it is.

Both the normal fuel and reserve lines run to the fuel selector. The return runs to the return outlet on the carbs.
 
Henning said:
If you have no evidence of varnishing, just make sure the bowls on the carbs get drained (there is a screw to pull for this typically) and you get fresh fuel pumped up refilling them.
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They are pressure carbs, there is no float bowl on jet skis. The carbs are diaphragm type.

Start on the electrical stuff, get that sorted, then we'll move on to fuel delivery. You know you have an issue in the electrical system, so take care of that. You may not have to do anything but provide good fuel once the spark is there.
 
Can you run something like seafoam thru a 2 cycle motor? I would assume no, but once this guy is running, it should clean out the carbs and junk in the cylinders?
 
sferguson524 said:
Can you run something like seafoam thru a 2 cycle motor? I would assume no, but once this guy is running, it should clean out the carbs and junk in the cylinders?
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I've never had a carb problem that's been fixed by anything other than a tear down. In my case both the fuel pumps (part of the two outside carbs) looked like total hell.

That said unless you really know carbs I'm not sure I would suggest one tear these down. It took me an entire weekend to get mine right. Takes a lot of dicking around with the springs to get them to pop at the right pressure and all three carbs need to pop at the same precise pressure. You need an accurate hand pimp to pressurize the carbs to get that detail right.

Even after that you need to sync them all which is a pita.

Even worse there is no way to get at the mixture screws with the carbs on the jetski. No way to tune it right without being on the lake. I spent several evenings on the lake doing runs at different power settings, yanking the plugs in the middle of the lake to inspect how rich or lean each cylinder was. Then yank the ski out of the lake, pull the carbs by the lake, adjust them, reinstall them (a hour process) then put back in the water and test some more. If you don't get it right you'll be too lean on a cylinder and trash the cylinder.

There is a reason these things are only worth the value of the trailer when they don't run.

The good thing is I pulled every part from my hull until all I had was an empty hull and inspected and repaired everything. I have an incredibly reliable ski now

If he gets hung up on the carbs, he can ship them to me in the spring and I can rebuild and tune them as close as I can get them. My engine is the same so it might be close enough to just bolt back on. I'd do this for the price of the rebuild kits, about $100 total, because that's what friends on PoA are for :)
 
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Jesse: I appreciate the offer. Thanks! I will focus on the electrical issues and we'll see what comes afterward.

I am hoping to work some more in the garage this evening. Incidentally, this weekend I spent a few hours with a friend of mine who was working on a crashed Yamaha R6 motorcycle. Seeing that thing made me feel good about starting my learning process on a jet ski. It's amazing how much wiring is packed under the seat and gas tank of the R6.
 
I had a few minutes to work on the ski tonight. I had planned to go ahead and hook up the power to the e-box the way it was designed so I could work on the test(s) suggested by DocMirror and others. I set about connecting the cables to the two "terminals" on the port side of the e-box and...there's nothing to connect to. There are just two holes. Hmm. Ok, time to open the e-box.

I had to disconnect the oil tank and oil tank mounting plate to get to the e-box. I noted that most of the screws to the e-box cover were loose, and a couple were missing (so that's what those extra screws in the cargo tray are).

I got the cover off and stared at it for a few minutes. There's a bit of corrosion in the box but it doesn't seem too terrible. The wiring looks older but, for a 19 year old ski, I'm actually kind of impressed how good it looks. I took a look at the e-box diagram in the service manual and it became pretty apparent that the starter relay (which the seller indicated was "the problem") isn't in the box at all. That's why I had nothing to connect the cables to on the port side of the e-box; the starter relay main terminals poke through those two holes and so without it I have nothing to connect to. This makes sense to me now. I've been reading up on starter relays and I understand it to basically be a "switch" that allows us to route power directly to the starter once the start button is engaged.

Maybe the seller's story is true. He said the mechanic he brought it to had the part on order, then stalled on the repair, then was out of business. He might have just handed the ski back with the missing relay and the e-box dismantled.

Anyway, I'm thinking my next course of action is to go ahead and order a starter relay. While that might not be my only problem, I certainly can't get the ski working (or hooked up right) without one. Do ya'll agree?

And, is there any reason not to get this $20 relay from Ebay vs. this $57 version which I think is OEM?

A few pics attached.
 

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eBay one should be fine. You could technically rig up about any relay to do the job, would be easy to cobble something simple together for testing - but in this case just order what fits and keep moving forward.
 
Thanks Jesse. Ordering it up now.

Also: zoom into that first photo of my e-box and look at the back of the igniter (large black rectangular box). See those salt-like crystalline deposit things on the vertical face of it? Is that normal?
 
asechrest said:
I had a few minutes to work on the ski tonight. I had planned to go ahead and hook up the power to the e-box the way it was designed so I could work on the test(s) suggested by DocMirror and others. I set about connecting the cables to the two "terminals" on the port side of the e-box and...there's nothing to connect to. There are just two holes. Hmm. Ok, time to open the e-box.

I had to disconnect the oil tank and oil tank mounting plate to get to the e-box. I noted that most of the screws to the e-box cover were loose, and a couple were missing (so that's what those extra screws in the cargo tray are).

I got the cover off and stared at it for a few minutes. There's a bit of corrosion in the box but it doesn't seem too terrible. The wiring looks older but, for a 19 year old ski, I'm actually kind of impressed how good it looks. I took a look at the e-box diagram in the service manual and it became pretty apparent that the starter relay (which the seller indicated was "the problem") isn't in the box at all. That's why I had nothing to connect the cables to on the port side of the e-box; the starter relay main terminals poke through those two holes and so without it I have nothing to connect to. This makes sense to me now. I've been reading up on starter relays and I understand it to basically be a "switch" that allows us to route power directly to the starter once the start button is engaged.

Maybe the seller's story is true. He said the mechanic he brought it to had the part on order, then stalled on the repair, then was out of business. He might have just handed the ski back with the missing relay and the e-box dismantled.

Anyway, I'm thinking my next course of action is to go ahead and order a starter relay. While that might not be my only problem, I certainly can't get the ski working (or hooked up right) without one. Do ya'll agree?

And, is there any reason not to get this $20 relay from Ebay vs. this $57 version which I think is OEM?

A few pics attached.
Click to expand...

Yep, you need a starter relay to continue.
 
If you get the one on ebay, the wiring colors aren't going to match perfectly. The original colors were red/black trace, and this one has red/white trace. Also, the starter solenoid pick signal is yellow/red trace. You'll need to figure out where the connector for the original red and red/blk is. Might be that big white plastic one in the first pic.

The black with the ring is a ground that will need to be bolted to the e-box case. The yellow/red trace pin will plug into one of the waterproof e-box through connectors. Look for a black plug with four connectors(only three inside the e-box). It will have a red, a black, a red/blk trace, and the yellow/red wire pin socket will be empty. That wire goes into the molex pin socket that leads out of the e-box on one of those waterproof black pass-through connections.

<Edit: After looking at the first pic, it appears the red connector down at the bottom will have the yellow/red trace wire in it. Pull that connector up, and see if the yellow/red trace terminates at one connector. >
 
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I bought this one instead. Impatience got the best of me; it ships from a few cities to my south. Hoping it arrives tomorrow.

Question: can I test crank without the oil tank hooked up, and with the oil line hanging free, if I pour some 2 cycle oil down the cylinders? The reason I ask is because the oil tank and mounting plate sits on top of the e-box and it's a bit of a pain to hook it all up, test, and then have to take it all off to open the e-box again.
 
asechrest said:
I bought this one instead. Impatience got the best of me; it ships from a few cities to my south. Hoping it arrives tomorrow.

Question: can I test crank without the oil tank hooked up, and with the oil line hanging free, if I pour some 2 cycle oil down the cylinders? The reason I ask is because the oil tank and mounting plate sits on top of the e-box and it's a bit of a pain to hook it all up, test, and then have to take it all off to open the e-box again.
Click to expand...

Good progress, I think that engine will fire right up with that relay. You should be ok just putting oil down the cylinders, but I wouldn't let it run for more than a few seconds if it fires. When you go for the full run test (after it is ALL together) make sure you hook water up to it, there is usually a spot to hook a garden hose up. One of my Sea doos has an adapter, the other has a hose fitting built right in. Good luck.
 
Lets be careful here. Oil in the cylinders could hydrolock it and destroy things quickly. I wouldn't pour anything in the cylinders. I'd spray some WD-40 in there to protect the engine piston and cyl linings, but don't go pouring stuff in your engine.

Leave the plugs out until you are sure you have spark with the new relay inserted and connected. You need to sort out where the start pick yellow/red wire attaches so the start button will work, and also the red and red/white wires which provide 12V to the igniter box to get spark. Once you have the wiring right, have the safety lanyard under the stop button, can crank the engine with the green button and have tested the ignition switch we'll move to the fuel system.

For now, just fog the cylinders with WD-40 to prevent rust and provide a small layer of lube.
 
Mix oil into your gas if you do that, be sure to plug the oil lines that go into the carb. Easiest way is to cut the hoses about a inch from the carb, stick a screw in them, then put a zip tie over the screw and hose. Should be three lines.

I put a small dab of a fuel safe sealant on the screws and let it dry for 48 hours but don't really think that's needed.

I would go 40 or 50:1 on the oil mix ratio.

I consider deleting the oil injection system a must do.

I absolutely WOULD NOT run it without oil. We're trying to fix this thing not blow it up or decrease the life :)

Read the section in the maintenance manual about priming the carbs. These things are some of the worst cold starting engines. It's not likely primed anymore and you'll crank until your battery goes dead trying to pull fuel from the tank.

DO NOT RUN IT FOR MORE THAN 30 SECONDS.
 
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Let me clarify a bit: I'm only working a single step ahead so that I have a plan and some answers when I go back to work on the ski. I'm going to hook up the relay and then briefly test the crank. I just wondered if I could leave the oil tank off for that brief crank test in case I've got the relay hooked up wrong and need to get back in the e-box. If by some miracle the engine were to actually fire, I'd kill it right away because I'm not ready for that.

I'll probably convert to pre-mix after all is said and done (block off kits are cheap), but I'm focused on these two steps right now. If leaving the oil tank off for the crank test is "risky" in some way, I'll just hook it back up. No sweat.
 
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