Please Remove Your Shoes

brentee

brentee

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Brentlee
Sooo, I just finished watching this documentary on Netflix. Can it REALLY be this bad?!?! :hairraise::hairraise:
 
Uh ohh... the Stasi's not going to like this...

-Rich
 
brentee said:
Sooo, I just finished watching this documentary on Netflix. Can it REALLY be this bad?!?! :hairraise::hairraise:
Click to expand...

Haven't seen the whole documentary but...

In spite of the billions of dollars spent, in spite of all the stuff that TSA puts people through, in spite of all of the rules, scanners, and procedures, passanger pat downs, lists of banned items, there is no real security at the major airports.

If there was real security, baggage handlers couldn't be running drug smuggling rings by loading suitcases full of drugs on passenger aircraft.

If there was real security, a teen couldn't sneak into a wheel wheel and end up having his body dumped in a middle of a subdivision when the gear comes down.

If there was real security, an aircraft cleaner couldn't bring his girlfriend into work to "show her an airplane".

If people have no trouble doing the above (and some, clearly, aren't the sharpest tools in the shed), then a "bad person" would have no trouble doing whatever they wish to do.

The system has holes big enough to drive a catering truck through.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Haven't seen the whole documentary but...

In spite of the billions of dollars spent, in spite of all the stuff that TSA puts people through, in spite of all of the rules, scanners, and procedures, passanger pat downs, lists of banned items, there is no real security at the major airports.

If there was real security, baggage handlers couldn't be running drug smuggling rings by loading suitcases full of drugs on passenger aircraft.

If there was real security, a teen couldn't sneak into a wheel wheel and end up having his body dumped in a middle of a subdivision when the gear comes down.

If there was real security, an aircraft cleaner couldn't bring his girlfriend into work to "show her an airplane".

If people have no trouble doing the above (and some, clearly, aren't the sharpest tools in the shed), then a "bad person" would have no trouble doing whatever they wish to do.

The system has holes big enough to drive a catering truck through.
Click to expand...
I agree- the most dangerous gaps are still there, and putting so much effort and money into treating crews and pax like dangerous criminals being transported just diverts attention away from that.
 
I particularly liked the part when they sent the bag containing a bomb and a bottle of water through the scanner. At least they caught the water :lol:
 
It matters not what TSA does or doesn't do. The great American apathy will not trouble itself to bother making any sort of changes whatsoever. We will bobble our heads up and down, then from, side to side, and make noises than sound like tsk, tsk, tsk.

Homeland Security along with TSA will continue to gobble up billions of taxpayer dollars in order to accomplish nothing more than support their ever growing beurcracies....tsk, tsk, tsk.

John
 
A theory popped into my head...

Perhaps the TSA was created to make people feel safe when flying, so the industry didn't implode post 9/11?
 
gcd89 said:
A theory popped into my head...

Perhaps the TSA was created to make people feel safe when flying, so the industry didn't implode post 9/11?
Click to expand...

And, how does one think it was created so quickly? Almost seems like it was already created and waiting to be implemented when the right disaster came along... I think the motives go way beyond saving such industry.
 
skidoo said:
And, how does one think it was created so quickly? Almost seems like it was already created and waiting to be implemented when the right disaster came along... I think the motives go way beyond saving such industry.
Click to expand...

All it takes is a penstroke....

but I guess what you said could be true
 
gcd89 said:
A theory popped into my head...

Perhaps the TSA was created to make people feel safe when flying, so the industry didn't implode post 9/11?
Click to expand...

No expense is too great when it comes to providing the illusion of security.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
No expense is too great when it comes to providing the illusion of security.
Click to expand...

And as an extra bonus, resources ****ed away attempting to provide the illusion of security are not available to provide actual security
 
Again, the salient fact is the number of potential terrorists stopped by the TSA. I will reiterate for the public benefit:

zero.jpg

Personally, I think the job was done when they secured the cockpit doors.
 
skidoo said:
And, how does one think it was created so quickly? Almost seems like it was already created and waiting to be implemented when the right disaster came along... I think the motives go way beyond saving such industry.
Click to expand...

With the evidence that those in charge already knew of credible threats and largely ignored then, I'd have to agree with this, barring future evidence.
 
skidoo said:
And, how does one think it was created so quickly? Almost seems like it was already created and waiting to be implemented when the right disaster came along... I think the motives go way beyond saving such industry.
Click to expand...

I started a weekly commute from Orlando to DC the first week of October in 2001. For the next 3-4 months I flew MCO-IAD on Monday morning and IAD to MCO on Friday evening. For the next two years I flew to a variety of places spending about 1/4 - 1/2 of my time on the road.

Based on that experience, I say: Nope.

TSA did come anywhere close to springing full born from some prior plans. In fact, doing business with DHS today, they're still forming. (Take that as good or bad, depending.)

For most of 18 months (based on memory) it was the national guard running the security checkpoints. And the protocol, even at the same airports, changed often, sometimes weekly.

I'm no fan of TSA, although most of those I've encountered seem to be trying to do their job as they've been employed to do and doing it politely. But I am absolutely not convinced in any way shape or form that it was some vast (or even half vast) conspiracy.

John
 
Interstingly, you're only likely to get this type of response on a pilots forum. Post it on a security forum and the response is likely to be words to the effect of 'it could be better, but it's the best we can do given the...'.

As pilots we have other options and therefore can be hypercritical. Those without options are left to accept the plate that put in front of them.

/flame suit on
 
jsstevens said:
I'm no fan of TSA, although most of those I've encountered seem to be trying to do their job as they've been employed to do and doing it politely. But I am absolutely not convinced in any way shape or form that it was some vast (or even half vast) conspiracy.

John
Click to expand...

Its no conspiracy.. just a great example of what happens when you create a government agency with a massive budget and cut it loose. It grows, and grows, and becomes a huge cluster...
 
steingar said:
Personally, I think the job was done when they secured the cockpit doors.
Click to expand...

Actually, the job was done when the second plane hit. Up to that point the feeling was, 'how'd a plane crash into a skyscraper on such a clear day?'

As soon as that second plane hit though we all knew we were under attack and that meant hijackers would be now be willing to crash and die in the effort. In that instant the idea of cooperating with hijackers vanished like a fart in the wind (credit to Shawshank). No way was anybody going to let a guy into the cockpit.

They could have a curtain for a door to the cockpit. If someone tried to get in there the entire plane would attack and get that guy back out as nobody is going to cooperate now with hijackers. In fact, there's a silver lining...we no longer have to worry about some guy trying to divert the flight for whatever cause. 9/11 fixed that problem.
 
Captain said:
Actually, the job was done when the second plane hit. Up to that point the feeling was, 'how'd a plane crash into a skyscraper on such a clear day?'

As soon as that second plane hit though we all knew we were under attack and that meant hijackers would be now be willing to crash and die in the effort. In that instant the idea of cooperating with hijackers vanished like a fart in the wind (credit to Shawshank). No way was anybody going to let a guy into the cockpit.

They could have a curtain for a door to the cockpit. If someone tried to get in there the entire plane would attack and get that guy back out as nobody is going to cooperate now with hijackers. In fact, there's a silver lining...we no longer have to worry about some guy trying to divert the flight for whatever cause. 9/11 fixed that problem.
Click to expand...

Very good point. 911 created a cultural change in the flying public. We will no longer wait for authority to assist us. If terrorists strike an airliner, we will act like Americans. The terrorists who did make it aboard airliners (despite the TSA) were stopped by passengers. I doubt a terrorist will ever again be able to commandeer an aircraft in flight.

I think the only real worry is terrorists might try and damage an airliner and kill all aboard in the resulting crash. I suspect they don't have the capabilities to do so, because if they did they could easily sneak it past the TSA. I haven't heard about them bragging they'd stopped any bombs. Just lighters, soda bottles, and pen knives.
 
Yep, before 9/11 a hijack ment you sat somewhere hot for a few days then went home. Getting killed to stop it wasn't worth it.

Now....
 
As one whose organization was sucked up into the black hole of DHS after 9/11 let me offer a little insight into the rationalization of DHS leadership for the changes made: Because we have to do something. For years after the department was created there was still no clear objectified goal for any aspect of their tasked mission other than to stuff a lot of bodies into uniform and get them out in public view. If I was a terrorist trying to strike the US I would send a dirty bomb in a container from some port in Italy. Only 1/10 of 1% of all containers entering the US are examined. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, pay homage to the great and powerful OZ!!!
 
Now you have to assume you're dead by default, so you have absolutely nothing to lose by attacking. I'm honestly a little surprised an airliner has landed with a live bomber on board.
 
steingar said:
I think the only real worry is terrorists might try and damage an airliner and kill all aboard in the resulting crash. I suspect they don't have the capabilities to do so, because if they did they could easily sneak it past the TSA. I haven't heard about them bragging they'd stopped any bombs. Just lighters, soda bottles, and pen knives.
Click to expand...

This worries me far more than the thought of being hijacked, as it's something I have absolutely no control over. I agree that it's highly unlikely any terroist will ever again take over a plane without one hell of a fight from the pax...but as pointed out, that has nothing to do with the TSA.
 
> Perhaps the TSA was created to make people feel safe

It's a jobs program, for those that are mostly; otherwise, unemployable.
 
rainsux said:
> Perhaps the TSA was created to make people feel safe

It's a jobs program, for those that are mostly; otherwise, unemployable.
Click to expand...

Hey, quit finding a problem that matches the pre existing "fix":rofl:


Just finished the film, scary.
 
steingar said:
Again, the salient fact is the number of potential terrorists stopped by the TSA. I will reiterate for the public benefit:

zero.jpg

Personally, I think the job was done when they secured the cockpit doors.
Click to expand...
How would you know?
 
Flight Crews and Pax attacking hijackers was the fix and that happened before the airspace was reopened after 9/11. The cockpit doors are nice...but unnecessary. Just tell all the pax that if they see anyone go into the cockpit besides the crew go ahead and bum rush them.

The TSA is stupid. We spend a gazillion dollars to defend visible entry points and nothing on entry points that the public doesn't see. Have you ever seen a baggage handler go through security? No you haven't. Why's that? How do they get to work?

They go through a special door with no screening. So...lets break this down. The guys FLYING THE FREAKING PLANE have to get wanded and probed and searched. They have access to the yoke and gear and could crash the plane any 'ol time they want...but they are searched for hand grenades and guns and whatever...

Meanwhile, the baggage handlers march right through a lower level door with no x-ray machine or searching. They could have been hired a couple of weeks ago with minimal background checks. They don't even ride on the planes...yet they have unrestricted access to the ramp. While the pilots get wanded and probed. Go figure.
 
Know of an airline pilot told by the blueberry that the reason she was taking his nail clippers was "because we don't want you to get control of the plane"

He was in uniform...
 
Captain said:
9/11 fixed that problem.
Click to expand...

Passengers will even put the Captain in a headlock now if they're asked. Think about how that could be utilized.

Same problem as ever-growing "Network Security" departments in IT with only budgetary limits to slow them down.

They see their role as "the most important role in the company", many sysadmins shake our heads and think we'd be better off with another good sysadmin who knows what they're doing and real peer review of work being done.

The reality is, neither is right. Management has to decide on a level of risk they're willing to take. But they're usually incapable of understanding even the technical basics since its not their bailiwick, so they throw money at the problem.

Which ultimately does nothing for root-cause. Just like TSA.
 
Captain said:
Flight Crews and Pax attacking hijackers was the fix and that happened before the airspace was reopened after 9/11. The cockpit doors are nice...but unnecessary. Just tell all the pax that if they see anyone go into the cockpit besides the crew go ahead and bum rush them.

The TSA is stupid. We spend a gazillion dollars to defend visible entry points and nothing on entry points that the public doesn't see. Have you ever seen a baggage handler go through security? No you haven't. Why's that? How do they get to work?

They go through a special door with no screening. So...lets break this down. The guys FLYING THE FREAKING PLANE have to get wanded and probed and searched. They have access to the yoke and gear and could crash the plane any 'ol time they want...but they are searched for hand grenades and guns and whatever...

Meanwhile, the baggage handlers march right through a lower level door with no x-ray machine or searching. They could have been hired a couple of weeks ago with minimal background checks. They don't even ride on the planes...yet they have unrestricted access to the ramp. While the pilots get wanded and probed. Go figure.
Click to expand...
It's all part of the show for the flying public. The closest interaction pax have with rampers is seeing them from the aircraft.
 
airbornejohnny said:
It's all part of the show for the flying public. The closest interaction pax have with rampers is seeing them from the aircraft.
Click to expand...

I loaded a few coffins as a ramp rat. Those people never complained.

Always load a coffin head first on a transport category aircraft. Think "in-flight deck angle", "embalming fluids", and "facial orifices" if you have the urge to ask why. ;)
 
It's not only THAT bad, it's worse. After the movie was released in July, 2010, inconvenience became outrageous abuse with the introduction of the full body scanners and so called "enhanced pat downs". We've since created a 54-minute TV version for our European distributor under the title "Please Remove Your Shoes: The Myth of America's Airport Security", which brings the topic up to date. Also, our thinking has evolved 'way past the idea that the TSA is amenable to bureaucratic reform. The hardcore LE and Special Ops guys profiled in the film refer to TSA as the Terrorist Support Agency because it diverts resources better spent on intelligence, law enforcement, and emergency response. Consider this: While TSA is irradiating your child or pawing your grandmother, cleaning/catering personnel have access to every nook and cranny on the aircraft, most cargo is unscreened, the full body scanners are child's play to defeat with PETN, plastic or sheet explosives, and the checkpoint itself is a target-rich environment for a bomber or shooter. TSA is nothing more than a ruinously expensive scam.

Rocco Giuliano
Writer/Co-Producer
Please Remove Your Shoes
 
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