Please don't lie on your medical application

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PPC1052

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Perhaps this should be in the medical topics thread, but I put this here because this information was learned by the mistakes of others. I know that most of you know this already, but some student pilot applicant, or forum lurker may not.

I have now just handled another case for a pilot who had their certificate(s) yanked due to false statements on the medical regarding alcohol related offenses. They were caught when their names popped up during a routine search of state BMV records. In one case, the convictions were more than 10 years old at the time of the application. Here is what they do when they find out:

1) they send you a letter offering to let you hang explain yourself;
2) about 30 days or so later, they send you an emergency revocation order finding that you intentionally misrepresented the facts, that they relied on your misrepresentation, and that an emergency exists necesitating an immediate revocation of all of your airman's certificates and medical;
3) they demand you return your medical and all certificates. (Right or wrong, this demand may include a demand to return A & P certificates, too.)

You have two days to appeal the finding of an emergency, and 10 days to appeal the order of revocation. If you blow those deadlines, there is essentially nothing you can do.

You can reapply after one year. That means, 1) applying for brand new medical, 2) taking the written exam(s) over; and 3) taking the check ride(s) again.

Most people fall into the trap thinking that one DUI will prevent them from getting their medical, or they fear it will make it difficult to get. One DUI is not disqualifying. You may have hoops to jump through, and it may be more difficult to get your medical. But they will probably find out if you lie about a conviction, and yank your license and your medical.

Also, please note that it is not just DUIs that you have to disclose. It's anything that results in a suspension or revocation of your license; even arrests that don't result of in convictions, if that arrest results in a suspension of driving privileges. You also have to disclose nontraffic misdemeanors and felonies.

The process of appealing is very expensive, and you have an uphill battle. You really don't want to be in that position. Please don't lie on your application. Please know that the FAA as a mater of routine practice is checking state BMV records. They will find out.
 
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FWIW, if you don't return the certificates on demand, they send the US Marshals out to get it from you, by force if necessary (maybe not like Ethel Merman and the car keys, but close). They were enroute to get John Denver's (over alcohol issues, I might point out) when he made the issue moot by crashing and dying.
 
Ron Levy said:
FWIW, if you don't return the certificates on demand, they send the US Marshals out to get it from you, by force if necessary (maybe not like Ethel Merman and the car keys, but close). They were enroute to get John Denver's (over alcohol issues, I might point out) when he made the issue moot by crashing and dying.
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That is retarded. Plastic certificates do not enable flight. I suppose it might stop most initial rental checkouts, but that is it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
That is retarded. Plastic certificates do not enable flight. I suppose it might stop most initial rental checkouts, but that is it.
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Without commenting on your characterization, that's what happens if you don't turn them in. Of course, if the US Marshals ever come for your tickets, you are free to exercise your First Amendment right to tell them so, but I don't recommend that -- cops tend to take that sort of thing personally. You can find further discussion of the consequences of that sort of attitude here.
 
Petty bureaucrats being petty thugs. People wonder why no one wants to fly, same reason kids these days aren't getting driver licenses. Too much state thuggery. Just in case I should send my certs in now and fly without them, problem solved.:rolleyes::lol:
 
I found my medical application in a drawer a while back and looked at it out of curiosity. For reasons unbeknownst to me, I put the date of the DUI I got on it 2 years later than it actually was. At the time of issuance, I had to write a letter to the FAA about it. After looking at it, it became clear that my DUI was actually 2 years BEFORE the date I wrote on the medical application. I wasn't trying to lie, I have no idea why I wrote the date as 2 years after the date it happend on the application. I go back in soon to re-up my medical and I didn't know if I should try to rectify it, now, when i go in, or just let a sleeping dog lie.
 
Unregistered said:
I found my medical application in a drawer a while back and looked at it out of curiosity. For reasons unbeknownst to me, I put the date of the DUI I got on it 2 years later than it actually was. At the time of issuance, I had to write a letter to the FAA about it. After looking at it, it became clear that my DUI was actually 2 years BEFORE the date I wrote on the medical application. I wasn't trying to lie, I have no idea why I wrote the date as 2 years after the date it happend on the application. I go back in soon to re-up my medical and I didn't know if I should try to rectify it, now, when i go in, or just let a sleeping dog lie.
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I'd wait to hear from the pros, but I'd guess if it was found out the first thought would be that it is a second not reported dui not a mistaken date.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'd wait to hear from the pros, but I'd guess if it was found out the first thought would be that it is a second not reported dui not a mistaken date.
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That is my main concern, but I didn't want to open up a can of worms. My thought is they didn't verify it and took the disclosure on the medical along with my letter at face value. I have a lot riding on the medical and don't need caught up in a bureaucratic paperwork nightmare. But, then again, I don't need a revoked medical or an insurance company not willing to pay out over my bad math.
 
My personal guess is that if the DUI was further in your past, with no intervening issues, it will only be less of a concern. However, if you want to make this right, I would suggest retaining an attorney to approach the FAA and negotiate an agreement on how to handle this without identifying you. If you get an acceptable agreement, you are then identified and the agreement is executed. If not, you can talk with your attorney about other options.
 
Ron Levy said:
FWIW, if you don't return the certificates on demand, they send the US Marshals out to get it from you, by force if necessary . . . .
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I have no experience with that, so I can't say one way or the other. But the letter my clients received said that there is a $1,100 penalty per day for failing to return the certificates. The order doesn't say when that starts to rack up. It just says it applies if you fail to return them immediately. When I handle these, the first order of business is generally to have the client hand them over so I can mail them in for the client.
 
Unregistered said:
That is my main concern, but I didn't want to open up a can of worms. My thought is they didn't verify it and took the disclosure on the medical along with my letter at face value. I have a lot riding on the medical and don't need caught up in a bureaucratic paperwork nightmare. But, then again, I don't need a revoked medical or an insurance company not willing to pay out over my bad math.
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Ew. I see your concern. If you would like, I can call the attorneys in Oklahoma City and ask them what they recomend that you do, and I can send you a PM. I can't imagine that anyone at the FAA would have it out for you over something like that. So it shouldn't be too much of a problem to get straightened out. I would just make sure at the end of the day you have a paper trail that confirms what ever it is you do to rectify the situation.

If you do talk to someone with the FAA, that FAA administrator could get run over by a bus five minutes later, and there would be no record of the communication ever happening. There is a saying in the legal community: "If it ain't in writing, it didn't happen." You want to be able to show a piece of paper to a judge that shows you did everything you were supposed to do if it ever comes to that. If you can do so, it rarely ever comes to that.
 
So wait... the suspended license and bench warrant I got for not paying a ticket for not renewing my plates 16 years ago is something I needed to report?
 
By the letter of the application, yes.

Question 18 states:

Medical History -- HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH, HAD, OR DO YOU PRESENTLY HAVE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING? Answer "yes" or "no" for every condition listed below. In the EXPLANATIONS box below, you may note "PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, NO CHANGE" only if the explanation of the condition was listed on a previous application for an airman medical certfificate and there has been no change in your condition. See Instructions Page

18v (which asks you to check yes or no) states:

History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which results in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program.

(Bold and all-capitals in original; underline added for emphasis.)
 
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Crap on a stick. I don't recall disclosing that on my application. So how do I fix it?
 
You're clean on (1). On (2) you're clean on arrest(s) and conviction(s).

The leaves (2) administrative action(s) involving an offense(s). What seems grey to me is that the offense didn't result in the administrative action. Non-payment resulted in administrative action. So, the offense alone is not sufficient for administrative action. You might be alright - perhaps Capt'n Ron can clarify.
 
Hrm that's a good point. I truly never have had any action taken against me for driving offenses other than fines. I feel a bit better now.
 
FlyerQ said:
You're clean on (1). On (2) you're clean on arrest(s) and conviction(s).

The leaves (2) administrative action(s) involving an offense(s). What seems grey to me is that the offense didn't result in the administrative action. Non-payment resulted in administrative action. So, the offense alone is not sufficient for administrative action. You might be alright - perhaps Capt'n Ron can clarify.
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I don't think we have enough information to assume that there was no "conviction." But I don't think that lack of information changes the analysis any. Given that there was a bench warrant issued, coupled with a suspension of driving privileges, it's hard to conceive how there would not have been either a conviction, or an administrative action. The act of suspending driving privileges would be almost by definition an administrative action. The term "administrative action" does not require that there was an administrative hearing in front of an ALJ, or similar individual.

The wording is written broadly on purpose. I suspect that the point isn't that they are going to deny a medical because someone failed to pay a ticket. I suspect that the point is that they want the question to cast a net wide enough that there is no way an applicant say that he failed to disclose something that really matters because it specifically wasn't asked for. By wording it the way they do, the applicant has to fess up to everything, and then explain what happened in the details section, so they can investigate further if they feel the need to. Then the FAA can get all the information, ignore the irrelevant stuff, and crush those that tried to pull a fast one by claiming they didn't ask exactly the right question.
 
I'm certainly not trying to avoid responsibility or not fess up. I'm extremely confident that, given the facts, the FAA will not pull my 3rd class medical for suspension related to failure to pay non-moving violation tickets in a timely manner over a decade and a half ago, especially given that these matters have been closed for a decade themselves. I just don't want some routine check to yank my cert even temporarily while the matter is cleared up.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack!
 
ChrisK said:
I'm certainly not trying to avoid responsibility or not fess up. I'm extremely confident that, given the facts, the FAA will not pull my 3rd class medical for suspension related to failure to pay non-moving violation tickets in a timely manner over a decade and a half ago, especially given that these matters have been closed for a decade themselves. I just don't want some routine check to yank my cert even temporarily while the matter is cleared up.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack!
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Indeed, even whe you get the cents back there is still that question about enforcement action on you insurance application:yikes:
 
ChrisK said:
I'm certainly not trying to avoid responsibility or not fess up. I'm extremely confident that, given the facts, the FAA will not pull my 3rd class medical for suspension related to failure to pay non-moving violation tickets in a timely manner over a decade and a half ago, especially given that these matters have been closed for a decade themselves. I just don't want some routine check to yank my cert even temporarily while the matter is cleared up.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack!
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Having done a little research I'll share my findings. This does appear to be a grey area. Some have received letters from the FAA below the Chief Counsel that would suggest your situation is non-reportable. Others have had conversations with Chief Counsel that suggest it is reportable.

Given the lack of clarity and collective experience with the FAA the general recommendation is to report it since your instincts about them not caring seem spot on.
 
Chris,

I am in no way of the opinion that you are attempting to avoid responsibility for any conduct. I see you as attempting to decide what to do about a potential inaccuracy in your application regarding an inconsequential matter. In my opinion (which is worth zero, by the way), what you describe is in no way reason to pull any one's license. But we all know that bureacracy and reason sometimes don't coexist.

If it were me, and I were completing the medical application today, I would absolutely list it, and give the explanation. Even it were a DUI, it wouldn't be disqualifying in and of itself. Heck, even two DUIs aren't automatically disqualifying (although in some circumstances, two are). I would sleep comfortably afterwards with my belief that it will not be a basis to deny the medical application, and knowing that there would be no basis to revoke for a misrepresentation on my application. But I know that is not the situation that you are in right now. You are trying to decide whether to let sleeping dogs lie. I can't tell you for certain what your best course of action is.
 
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FlyerQ said:
Having done a little research I'll share my findings. This does appear to be a grey area. Some have received letters from the FAA below the Chief Counsel that would suggest your situation is non-reportable. Others have had conversations with Chief Counsel that suggest it is reportable.

Given the lack of clarity and collective experience with the FAA the general recommendation is to report it since your instincts about them not caring seem spot on.
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Can you clarify what you mean by "non-reportable?" My specific question is whether you are talking about the duty to report on your own if there is a motor vehicle action independent of the medical application, or are you talking about reporting on your medical application? Some people confuse those two issues, and the requirements for what must be reported under each circumstance are different.
 
PPC1052 said:
History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which results in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program.
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A literal reading of (2) suggest that if I get a speeding ticket for 5 over and opt for traffic school instead of points, I have to report it.

Is this right?
 
Old Geek said:
A literal reading of (2) suggest that if I get a speeding ticket for 5 over and opt for traffic school instead of points, I have to report it.

Is this right?
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Subject of a discussion in the Medical forum. A member made an inquiry to the FAA and was told (formally) by a representative below the chief council - no. Dr. B said that without a Chief Council ruling it is not a binding position and that a conversation he had with the CC indicates you need to report it.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38438&highlight=license&page=3
 
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And yet last December I rear ended some poor woman (there's a story, but I was legally at fault of course). This, the FAA has no problem with, as long as I don't make a habit of it =)


Sent from my brain using my fingers.
 
PPC1052 said:
Can you clarify what you mean by "non-reportable?" My specific question is whether you are talking about the duty to report on your own if there is a motor vehicle action independent of the medical application, or are you talking about reporting on your medical application? Some people confuse those two issues, and the requirements for what must be reported under each circumstance are different.
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The actual need to report a temporary revocation for non-payment of parking tickets. The clause can be interpreted broadly and reporting is probably smart. However, this guidance to AME's suggests intent.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/
 
Old Geek said:
A literal reading of (2) suggest that if I get a speeding ticket for 5 over and opt for traffic school instead of points, I have to report it.

Is this right?
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Seems silly, but I think the answer is yes.
 
FlyerQ said:
The actual need to report a temporary revocation for non-payment of parking tickets. The clause can be interpreted broadly and reporting is probably smart. However, this guidance to AME's suggests intent.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/
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I didn't ask my question clearly enough.

Are you talking about the duty to report within 60 days of the incident, or are you talking about the duty to answer question 18v on the medical? The types of things which you must report automatically under § 61.15(e) within 60 days is different from what you must disclose when you apply for your medical.

61.15 only requires that you disclose a "motor vehicle action" within 60 days. That term is specifically defined in 61.15(c). The question on the medical application is much more broad, and requires disclosure of more information.

Let's use a hypothetical to illustrate. Say your state has a statute that suspends driving privileges for non-payment of child support. I would say you have to disclose the suspension on your next and all future medicals. But I would argue that you would not have to send a notice to the FAA automatically within 60 days under 61.15(e), because the suspension doesn't meet the definition of a "motor vehicle action."
 
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FlyerQ said:
Subject of a discussion in the Medical forum. A member made an inquiry to the FAA and was told (formally) by a representative below the chief council - no. Dr. B said that without a Chief Council ruling it is not a binding position and that a conversation he had with the CC indicates you need to report it.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38438&highlight=license&page=3
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To be clear - if you're SENTENCED to Traffic school, or choose that as your sentence, you probably do have to report it.

The question I asked was that if you got your points, and then on your own initiative chose to go to traffic school on your own (not as a result of a violation) so that you could "earn" some points back, did you have to report it. The Chief counsel referred it to elsewhere in the FAA, and that person told me "no" in writing. I'm comfortable with that answer should it ever come up, but everyone has to make up their own mind.

Somewhat related - I had my DL suspended at one time because the DMV sent me a questionnaire related to insurance coverage. I never got it, they suspended my license, and never sent anything in writing. I found out when I went to renew something, and they took the suspension off right away. That was also not a reportable incident.
 
I agree on both interpretations.

An interesting general council letter indicated that when the FAA first started using the national driver registry they found 71% of dui charges went unreported.

Given the lack of guidance on 18v complete disclosure is required for compliance and obviously prudent, but I'm pretty such they're not looking for parking tickets.

In the case of parking tickets the offense is obviously non-payment.
 
Tim,

I read the letter that you got that you posted in the other thread, and saw the disagreement posted by Dr. Bruce that expressed concern about the extent to which an applicant can rely on it. I hesitate to say that the letter is a complete safe harbor for the reasons stated by Dr. Bruce. I suppose the chief counsel could certainly reverse that decision. But, unless that happens, I would certainly argue vociferously that knowledge of that letter prior to and at the time of completion of the medical application would go a long way to undermining any evidence of intent to misrepresent. Obviously, though, the most risk averse course of action would be to report it on 18v.

Caveat aviator.
 
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One advantage of Sport Pilot, that form and those people are out of your life.
 
PPC1052 said:
Tim,

But, unless that happens, I would certainly argue vociferously that knowledge of that letter prior to and at the time of completion of the medical application would go a long way to undermining any evidence of intent to misrepresent.

Caveat aviator.
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That's how I feel about it.
 
TMetzinger said:
To be clear - if you're SENTENCED to Traffic school, or choose that as your sentence, you probably do have to report it.
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I agree that voluntary action is necessary for cover under the letter you received. That removes any shade of gray I was suggesting in the parking ticket case, you had an offense (failure to pay) that resulted in an administrative action (suspension of license).

Worse, the AME guidance would suggest if it happened in the last 5 years you're going to have to document the whole thing and submit to AME alcohol questioning (not biggie, but still a small headache). It doesn't appear there would be any grounds for deferral.

I'm just a new pilot opening my eyes to the wonderful world of aviation.
 
vintage cessna said:
One advantage of Sport Pilot, that form and those people are out of your life.
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Yup. Next time someone starts one of those 'why don't more people fly?' threads point em to this one. And it isn't that the masses are disqualified it is that the masses have enough pain in their lives without the FAA.
 
PPC1052 said:
If you do talk to someone with the FAA, that FAA administrator could get run over by a bus five minutes later, and there would be no record of the communication ever happening. There is a saying in the legal community: "If it ain't in writing, it didn't happen." You want to be able to show a piece of paper to a judge that shows you did everything you were supposed to do if it ever comes to that. If you can do so, it rarely ever comes to that.
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Irrelevant. They don't need his statement as proof; the records (NDR data compared to his application) will suffice once they get wind of what to check. But as I said, this probably isn't going to be a big deal because he disclosed the event, just screwed up the date, and in a manner which would make things worse, not better, for him. I stand by my "get a lawyer to negotiate" advice.
 
FlyerQ said:
You're clean on (1). On (2) you're clean on arrest(s) and conviction(s).

The leaves (2) administrative action(s) involving an offense(s). What seems grey to me is that the offense didn't result in the administrative action. Non-payment resulted in administrative action. So, the offense alone is not sufficient for administrative action. You might be alright - perhaps Capt'n Ron can clarify.
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The suspension is an administrative action stemming from the offense of driving with expired tags. I believe PPC is right -- it counts.
 
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