Planes collide at Tokyo’s Haneda Airport

Ok, time for all the speculation before we get the facts.

The British guy explaining everything to CNN seems to be implying runway incursion by the Coast Guard aircraft (Dash 8).
 
donjohnston said:
Paywall
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The page has been archived already. Plug the address into: https://archive.is and it will come up.
Putting a paywalled page address into the second window on the archive page ("I want to search the archive for saved snapshots") will often, but not always, bring up a paywalled page.
If it doesn't, sometimes it will if you try again a day later.
 
www.cnn.com

Latest Japan news: Quake and Tokyo plane fire

A Japan Airlines plane burst into flames on landing at Tokyo's Haneda airport after it collided with an aircraft involved in earthquake relief efforts. This comes after a 7.5-magnitude earthquake struck the west coast of Japan a day earlier. Follow here for live news updates.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
Iflydogs said:
5 crew of the Coast Guard plane are unaccounted for.
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The article has been updated to say the 5 are dead an only the pilot survived, but is in critical condition.

Also, from the human interest point, the CG plane was taking aid to the area hit by the earthquake in Japan.

Above from most recent WaPo article.
 
Reports 5 of the coast guard didn’t survive. All the folks on the plane got out safely. God speed to those that lost their lives.
 
The video of the impact is very dramatic as would be expected. The Dash was on a taxiway intersecting the runway as the Airbus was rolling out. Tough to see clearly, but I would imagine based on the incident that the Dash did incur onto the runway as the Airbus does not look to go off the runway at all. It is a miracle more people did not die onboard the Airbus.
 
OMG! Thoughts and prayers for the 6-crewmen and their families.
 

Very sad. The dash 8 was sitting on runway for an extended period of time. Going to look for the ATC recordings if available.
 
TipTanks said:
The video of the impact is very dramatic as would be expected. The Dash was on a taxiway intersecting the runway as the Airbus was rolling out. Tough to see clearly, but I would imagine based on the incident that the Dash did incur onto the runway as the Airbus does not look to go off the runway at all. It is a miracle more people did not die onboard the Airbus.
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Looking at the damage to the Airbus the Dash was no doubt on the runway at C4, probably awaiting a take off clearance. You can see damage to both Airbus engines likely from hitting the back side of the Dash wings. Fuel in the Dash wings was likely the initial explosion.
 
TipTanks said:
It is a miracle more people did not die onboard the Airbus.
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Saw a short video taken by a passenger of a dark, smoky plane filled with Japanese people calmly following instructions, waiting their turn, and not grabbing their luggage. Can't help but wonder if the outcome would've been different on a US carrier.
 
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Jim K said:
Saw a short video taken by a passenger of a dark, smoky plane filled with Japanese people calmly following instructions, waiting their turn, and not grabbing their luggage. Can't help but wonder if the outcome would've been different on a US carrier.
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Well, if it was Spirit, they’d be getting out their credit cards to pay for using the slides, and for leaving their carry-ons on board. (And I’m passing this cute one-liner on to my buddy who’s a Spirit pilot.)
 
The first reports of a transcript of what the tower told the Coast Guard plane to do doesn't sound like standard phraseology was being used and I didn't see any readback of the taxi instruction from the CG plane. Ground told the CG plane to go to the C5 hold point. I suspect the CG plane took that to mean taxi onto the runway and hold at the C5 taxiway. Nothing was said about holding short of 34R. The tower also told the JAL plane to "continue approach" which was readback by the JAL plane as "cleared to land."
 
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Thank goodness it happened in Japan, where the population isn't so self-centered. I can only imagine a USA airline with people trying to get their luggage out of the overhead bins. . . Tragic.
 
skyking3286 said:
Thank goodness it happened in Japan, where the population isn't so self-centered. I can only imagine a USA airline with people trying to get their luggage out of the overhead bins. . . Tragic.
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It may be time for you to step away from the mirror skyking3286 and speak for yourself.

I don’t know anyone who would stop to get their carryon luggage with a cabin filled with smoke and fire outside the windows.

Many evacuations from airlines have gone well in the USA.
 
Witmo said:
The first reports of a transcript of what the tower told the Coast Guard plane to do doesn't sound like standard phraseology was being used and I didn't see any readback of the taxi instruction from the CG plane. Ground told the CG plane to go to the C5 hold point. I suspect the CG plane took that to mean taxi onto the runway and hold at the C5 taxiway. Nothing was said about holding short of 34R. The tower also told the JAL plane to "continue approach" which was readback by the JAL plane as "cleared to land."
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"Taxi to the runway 34R C5 hold point" is standard phraseology in many parts of the world. The US deviates significantly from ICAO standard phraseology.

The recordings I have heard of the accident have been of poor quality. The Japanese English accent has always been difficult for me to understand. I had a lot of trouble with it when I was flying in that region. Luckily, the Japanese controllers were always precise in their phraseology which helped me quite a bit.
 
TipTanks said:
The video of the impact is very dramatic as would be expected. The Dash was on a taxiway intersecting the runway as the Airbus was rolling out. Tough to see clearly, but I would imagine based on the incident that the Dash did incur onto the runway as the Airbus does not look to go off the runway at all. It is a miracle more people did not die onboard the Airbus.
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Slightly disagree. The Dash 8 was on the runway lined up and waiting for some time when the A350 hit it.

If you watch the CCTV video closely you will see them taxi onto the runway at C5 and sit there with landing lights on waiting while the 350 approaches.

It took me a few replays to identify the Dash 8 before the collision.

IF the Dash 8 was entering the runway as you suggest while the A350 approached, I believe the A350 pilots would have seen it. As it was, the only thing they would have seen is the tail beacon and maybe the strobes near the edges of the runway much like the USAIR/Skywest collision at LAX.
 
Even though it appears the CG crew may have effed up by lining up on the runway without clearance to do so (if true as presented by the public information so far), there's still a fundamental lack of self preservation in holding there while another airplane transmits a clearance to land on the runway you've been idling on for far too long.

I'd be querrying and chaffing up that frequency right ricky tick the second i hear anyone call clear to land on the patch of asphalt im sitting duck on. The notion they may have been there erroneously in the first place is frankly immaterial, the self preservation instinct to get the heck out of that position should be primal.

Im not a fan of extended line ups, and i can be quite cantankerous about it. I got 99 problems, getting strafed mort aint gonna be one of 'em. Thats about the safety angle lesson learned i take away from this accident tbh.

All that said, im sure the information will be forthcoming to clarify the sequence here, in the coming weeks.
 
No blame laid here, and I am in the camp that the Dash was lined up ready to go... would the A350 pilot still be queried (even though I can only imagine how difficult it is to see) that the runway was clear? I wonder though if the outcome could have been avoided had the 350 seen the dash, or would it have been worse if they had tried to go around... (clipped the tail while in the air?)
 
When we had the Skywest/USAir crash, the NTSB study shows that it's near impossible for an arriving aircraft to pick out an aircraft not sitting in some place other than the threshold from the air at night.
This led to the "no intersection position and holds at night" prohibition.
 
I did a web search for asde-x at Haneda and found this article (btw it tells me it will be paywalled after the 11th):

Dash 8 Entered Runway Without Permission Before Haneda Accident, ATC Transcript Shows

Nearly 50 sec. after the Dash 8 stopped, the A350, which touched down seconds before closer to the runway end, struck the national guard aircraft.
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Investigators will also look closely at how an aircraft could be on an active HND runway for nearly 1 min. without being detected, even in the dark. An ICAO document shows HND is one of many airports that uses surface movement radar—
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Here's the report for the crash I mentioned earlier https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9108.pdf. From page 59:

Airplane Conspicuity

The investigation disclosed that the Metroliner's navigation/position lights and red anticollision beacon located on top of the vertical stabilizer were the only lights illuminated on the airplane at the time of the collision. However, during an additional conspicuity exercise, it was evident from both the tower and the final approach that the aircraft and runway lights tend to blend together perceptually.
 
It’s difficult at night to see a poorly lit airplane on the runway you’re about to land on. When a crew is doing their landing checklists verbally their radio listening skills get poor. Throw in expectation bias that the runway is not occupied and you can see how this happens. In this case you’ve got three things contributing. The Coast Guard plane held / lined up at the wrong place, ATC didn’t see what was about to happen, and the airline crew missed seeing the traffic on the runway.
 
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tlglenn said:
I did a web search for asde-x at Haneda and found this article (btw it tells me it will be paywalled after the 11th):

Dash 8 Entered Runway Without Permission Before Haneda Accident, ATC Transcript Shows
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This from that article : Investigators will also look closely at how an aircraft could be on an active HND runway for nearly 1 min. without being detected, even in the dark. An ICAO document shows HND is one of many airports that uses surface movement radar—a long-used method of supplementing the visual view of the airfield controllers have. The system’s performance and controllers’ familiarity with it are other likely topics investigators will probe.

I was wondering how the Dash 8 was in position for that length of time on the runway without being noticed by the tower controllers. Excellent evacuation of the JAL flight though.
 
I certainly think the Japanese penchant for following rules and working together played out to their benefit in this instance.

OTOH, Americans in foreign countries are known for taking individual action to respond to emergencies while the locals sit tight. The young US military guys during the knife attack on the French train come to mind. Although the Brits with the whale tusk and fire extinguisher win the all time prize here.

narwahl.PNG
 
asicer said:
Airports need brake lights?
(or lights that can say "contaminated runway"?)
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Technically the airport had brake lights in the form of Stop Bar lights before entering the runway. You aren't allowed to enter the runway if the stop bar lights are flashing red.

Unfortunately, they were NOTAM's out of service that night......
 
Ed Haywood said:
I certainly think the Japanese penchant for following rules and working together played out to their benefit in this instance.

OTOH, Americans in foreign countries are known for taking individual action to respond to emergencies while the locals sit tight. The young US military guys during the knife attack on the French train come to mind. Although the Brits with the whale tusk and fire extinguisher win the all time prize here.

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Might want to rethink that.

Latest reports coming out are not entirely complementary on the evac.

But that said, the flight crew and particularly the Captain did their jobs and made sure everyone did eventually evacuate.

Note, I'm not roasting anyone, just providing the counter to the comments here and on other forums that this evac was picture perfect because it happened in Japan.

The are no national borders in the world of idiots....
 
Fearless Tower said:
Might want to rethink that.

Latest reports coming out are not entirely complementary on the evac.

But that said, the flight crew and particularly the Captain did their jobs and made sure everyone did eventually evacuate.

Note, I'm not roasting anyone, just providing the counter to the comments here and on other forums that this evac was picture perfect because it happened in Japan.

The are no national borders in the world of idiots....
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Video of the cabin as the airplane slid to a stop was fascinating. Pax initially seemed surprisingly calm, some capturing the event on their phones, but their anxiety rapidly grew with a big orange fireball clearly visible through the windows and the cabin filling with smoke. Yet, they remained seated, awaiting instructions from the crew. I was puzzled by the length of time that transpired before the crew initiated the evac. One clip showed an F/A sitting in her jumpseat, looking quizzically at her colleage cross-aisle, as if asking "what now?" Today I read a report stating that the evac required a little over 18 minutes(!) That would seem like an enternity under the circumstances. The timing was stopped when the Captain, the last person on board, exited, so it may be that the Captain spent several minutes searching the cabin after everyone else evacuated, thus skewing the total evac time. Another report stated that the PA was inoperative, possibly delaying the initation of the evac. Another interesting aspect is that the right engine appears to be running well into the evac. If that is the case, one might wonder if the extensive damage caused by running-over a Dash 8 at, like, 100kts, rendered flight deck controls such as the PA and engine controls inoperative.

Looking forward to the CVR transcripts.
 
Roger Wilco said:
The timing was stopped when the Captain, the last person on board, exited, so it may be that the Captain spent several minutes searching the cabin after everyone else evacuated, thus skewing the total evac time. Another report stated that the PA was inoperative, possibly delaying the initation of the evac.
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The reason the Captain spent so long before leaving is he kept finding people still in their seats.
 
TrueCourse said:
It’s difficult at night to see a poorly lit airplane on the runway you’re about to land on. When a crew is doing their landing checklists verbally their radio listening skills get poor. Throw in expectation bias that the runway is not occupied and you can see how this happens.
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I've had the experience of trying to locate an airport on a clear VFR night in a mid-sized city and simply not being able to pick it out of the absolute sea of bright lights. I had a GPS pointing me right to where it was, I knew the distance, it was right in front of me and my brain simply couldn't sort it out from all the other lighting in the area. It doesn't surprise me at all that the landing aircraft didn't pick out the aircraft on the runway out of all the lights at that busy commercial airport.

We don't know everything yet but it certainly seems like the Coast Guard aircraft was somewhere it wasn't supposed to be. I can't remember the specific incidents off the top of my head but I am certain I've heard of very similar things happening before. I believe it lead to some airports having systems that allowed them to track aircraft on the ground. I also can't help but think of foreflight enunciating every time I enter a runway.
 
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