Plane before licence?

[mtuomi]

And second, by the time you buy a plane and maintain it for a year you've spent way more than you would have renting. At that point you have two options. 1. Sell it, and if you are very lucky not lose more than you "saved". This only works if you have a good, cheap mechanic, and there are no hidden surprise issues with the plane. This is at best a gamble that you won, rather than "saving money". 2. You keep it and you're in the situation described in the first paragraph where you're going to continue to spend loads of money on a hobby that no sane person could call "saving money".

Fly enough and you will save money over renting. More you fly, more you save. I saved $18k in a year (400 hours). Those little surprises will kill your budget if you fly 20 hours, but if you split them to a large number of hours, you will come out ahead.

 

[mtuomi]

No, no you didn't. But, I give you kudos: way to convince yourself!

Yes I did. I flew 400 hours in 8 months, my all-in cost including everything (FBO fees etc) was $54/hr. Similar plane would've been $105/hr to rent (and I'm not even counting the Hobbs vs. Tach discrepancy here). I could have given the plane away at the end and would have been ahead. I ended up selling it for more than what I paid for it.
It's all about your mission.

 

[Salty]

Fly enough and you will save money over renting. More you fly, more you save. I saved $18k in a year (400 hours). Those little surprises will kill your budget if you fly 20 hours, but if you split them to a large number of hours, you will come out ahead.

Yeah, you saved money by flying. wink. Is your wife reading this thread? wink wink.

 

[mtuomi]

Yeah, you saved money by flying. wink. Is your wife reading this thread? wink wink.

First sentence: "will save money over renting". Read it again, slowly. Especially the "over renting" part.

If you own, and fly enough, it is cheaper (so you will save money) compared to renting a similar plane for same mission.

 

[1RTK1]

Bought my tiger with a partner before completing my ppl training. My buddy was an older friend and had flown many years prior.
I have no regrets as to the purchase, Do owner assist annuals that cost about $400. We really haven't had to do much besides put oil and gas in it.
This annual will probably be more due to a weak cylinder, but that is a whole other story.....

 

[Skyrys62]

A ton of variables to this question, so pretty much impossible to say what would be 'best'.

Only two guarantees.
1. You will spend a lot of money either way
2. Whatever choice you make, you'll find a way to justify it, no matter how it turns out.

Good luck with your training!

 

[timwinters]

just sales tax on that and an annual and oil changes cost you at least $3,000. And that's a ridiculously unreasonably conservative estimate of 250 hours of flight maintenance. I'm guessing it was 2 to 4 times that in reality if you did anything at all to make the plane more pleasant or customized to you. I also bet you filled a hangar or hangar box full of tools and sundry items you never would have bought if you rented. Did you pay for a tie-down or hangar rent? More money..... you just ignore all this stuff because HOLY CRAP, I OWN AN AIRPLANE,

[sarcasm] really? I thought my only cost was fuel. [/sarcasm]

I keep very close track of my play toy expenses and "all in" my 172 ownership cost me less than $90 per hour. And when I say "all in" it's literal.

Again, maybe I just got lucky, but it worked for me.

 

[GaryV]

I bought my 56 172 for $25000 to get my license, fly it for a year, then sell it and get something else. It was a great choice for me, saved me a lot vs. renting, and because I could I flew a lot more often than I would have renting I did. The only thing that went 'wrong' was I didn't sell it for 9 years.

In the end I sold it for $25000 and despite maintence, insurance, etc., I believe I saved money vs. renting every year. The biggest advantage was that throughout the time I owned the plane I continued to fly much more often than I would have with a rental.

All that said, I also have a friend that started his lessons with me. He had always dreamed of owning a Bonanza. He happened to run across a 47 V-tail in excellent condition after he had about 6-hours of training. It was literally the plane he'd always wanted and he could afford it so he bought it for cash. His plane was to get his license in the trainer the instructor was using then continue on and get checked out in the BO. He hired his instructor to fly it home for him and rode along for the three hour flight. He was in heaven and talked of little else for a couple of weeks.

Something happened about 10-hours into his training (4-hours later) that made him uncomfortable flying as a pilot. I couldnt get him to talk about it and couldn't talk him into trying another instructor. He just stopped taking lessons all together.

He never flew in his Bonanza again so the three hour flight he had when it was being ferried back to his home field was the only ride he ever got in it. He also refused to sell it 'because he liked telling people he owned a Bonanza'. He said he never regretted buying the plane but tied it down outside and just let it rot. After he passed away I heard that an A&P bought it for past due rent with the idea of restoring it but he was too late. So much had gone wrong in all the years that it sat there he ended up scrapping it out and selling it for parts.

The point of the story is that both I and my friend made what we thought were great buys. In my case it worked out well. My friend claimed until the end that he never regretted making the purchase but from a financial perspective just about any other option would have been better.

I never did find out what turned him off to getting his license. He'd fly as a passenger with me but wouldn't touch the controls. He's the cautionary tale. If you're 100% certain you'll continue through and get your license in that first year a properly researched and thought out purchase can be a good choice. If something goes wrong, either not continuing through until you get your license or something like an engine failure, it can turn into a severe financial hit that can take a long time to recover from.

Gary

 

[timwinters]

Another data point.

I've owned my straight tail 182 for 13 years and over 1700 hours now and I keep very close track of what I've spent on that toy too...including an overhaul last year. Two of the years I've owned it I flew over 200 hours (one almost 250), all other years except one I flew over 100 hours and that one only 75. Here's my "all in" for the 182:

At 75 hours the plane cost is $145/hour
At 200 hours the plane cost is $110/hour.
Over the entire 13 years, and the 135 hours per year average, cost has been $120.25/hour and that includes a $40,000 overhaul of everything firewall forward last year.

My "all in" includes hangar, insurance, annual inspection, fuel, oil changes, annuals, engine mx, airframe mx, avionics mx; engine, prop and avionics reserves; all avionics upgrades, and lastly personal property tax which Missouri unfortunately has. The only thing not included is lost income opportunity on the $55k I paid for it. That would add about about $2.50/hour to the cost.

And, as anyone here who has seen my plane will tell you, it wants for nothing.

What's always been clear to me is that if you fly a lot, it's cheaper to own and if you don't it's cheaper to rent since the fixed cost of owning an airplane are quite high. Where's the sweet spot? I think that's highly dependent upon where you live. Around here the going rate for a nice t-hangar with a power door is $125. In places where hangars are $500 your break even point will obviously be far higher (hell, that's $45/hour difference at 100 hours/year right there). Additionally, mechanics here are fairly reasonable at $75/hr and I do a fair amount of my own maintenance with an A&P sign off when needed... because I enjoy it and like keeping track of the condition of my plane myself...with my eyes.

 

[Skyrys62]

I'm glad you included the lost income on your $55k. That's a sticking point for me, but some don't consider it.
Sometimes I think I won't because any income I got from the $55k investment, I would blow on something else trying to fill the flying void and having fun (when rentals are not available)
But it would NEVER be gambling, booze or women.
Probably a stamp collection.
yeah, yeah....stamp collection...that's it.

 

[Datadriver]

I am about to start my private pilot certification and while looking at prices, I saw that the bulk of the cost is plane rental. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to just put the money that i would use to rent a plane towards buying a plane and using the plane i bought for the certification. Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
Also, if so, what is a good 4 seater that i should start with?

Don't do it.

 

[paflyer]

I am about to start my private pilot certification and while looking at prices, I saw that the bulk of the cost is plane rental. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to just put the money that i would use to rent a plane towards buying a plane and using the plane i bought for the certification. Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
Also, if so, what is a good 4 seater that i should start with?

Ownership doesn't mean it's 'free' to fly.

 

[paflyer]

Yes I did. I flew 400 hours in 8 months, my all-in cost including everything (FBO fees etc) was $54/hr. Similar plane would've been $105/hr to rent (and I'm not even counting the Hobbs vs. Tach discrepancy here). I could have given the plane away at the end and would have been ahead. I ended up selling it for more than what I paid for it.
It's all about your mission.

Where did you find the free time to fly 400 hours?

 

[bflynn]

If I could go back and do it over again, I would buy an airplane during training. It makes a lot of sense economically and allows you move directly into flying your own airplane when you want and at a cheaper cost than renting.

 

[BigBadLou]

As many have said, it makes perfect sense if you have the capital.
I chose the same route and never regretted it, despite a few maintenance hurdles. I always had an airplane to fly, it was always in airworthy condition, I always knew how much fuel it had, I could always count on her flying the same way without surprises.
I got two tickets in her and never looked back.

 

[Salty]

I bought a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 172 for $25,000, scratched my nuts, and mumbled "hmmm, guess I ought to learn how to fly, huh?"

I learned to fly in it and put over 250 hours on it. Then I found a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 182. I bought it, and sold the 172 for the same $25,000 that I paid for it. Learning to fly in my own plane was the bomb!! I wouldn't trade that experience for anything...especially since I'm overly anal retentive about both proper mx and cleanliness.

I used to beat myself up over how many hours I had when I finally went to take my check ride. Well over 100. I thought I must be really stupid. Then one day I analyzed how many of those hours were instructional and how many were just me going out and playing after I soloed. 48 were instructional and over 60 were me just playing since I owned a plane and mentally all that the flying was costing me was gas. I also had access to 4 airports that were within the magic 24nm distance and that I'd been signed off to fly repeat XCs to. So I'd fly round robin XCs, do two or threelandings at each, or just go out and play and practice upper air work. I would have never done that had I been paying full rental price.

One other benefit of owning, if you're in a region where 0E autogas is available, and you buy a plane that can be, or is, STC'ed for MoGas, then you can save some substantial money on fuel. MoGas can run $1 to $2 cheaper than AvGas at the field in many places. The price difference when I was training was typically in the $1.50 range and I'd try to run a blend between 2/1 and 3/1 MoGas/AvGas. This alone saved over $2,000.



I think that depends greatly on what you know, who you know, and where you live. My transacational costs were next to nil except for sales tax.

The key is finding a good plane and, like others have said, make sure you are committed to see it through before you buy.

Or, maybe I just got lucky..........

Let's do the math. Assuming a 172 that cost 25,000, you manage to sell it for 25,000 a year later, and fly it for 100 hours.

Item / Min / Max
---------------------
Sales Tax / 1250 / 2250
Annual / 500 / 3000
parking / 1200 / 4800
repairs / 0 / 6000 (Losing a cylinder isn't uncommon, add in a failed radio or instrument and you can get to 6,000 in a blink of an eye)
fuel / 2450 / 4500 (3.50per gallon x 7 gph x 100 / 4.5per gallon x 10 gph * 100)
oil changes / 45 / 400 (DIY vs paying an A&P for 2 changes)
tools and hangar supplies / 100 / 2000
-----------------------------------------------
Totals / 5,545 / 22,950
Hourly / 55.45 / 229.50

Is it possible to come out a little bit cheaper? Sure. You're not going to find a rental 172 for 55 an hour.
Is it likely? Not for most people. Most people are going to be closer to the right side on at least a few of the items.
You buy a plane for the bragging rights, convenience, and safety, not to save money.

 

[weilke]

Try to buy something that offers the option to get your instrument ticket in it.

 

[tspear]

@Salty
The cheapest 172 by me runs $120 an hour, and that is an hour and 15 minute drive away from the city.
Otherwise, the local airport has one for around $180/hr. But that is a much nicer plane....

Tim

 

[1600vw]

I know a man who when taking his training in Florida the school kept putting his training off because of lack of airplane needed for training. After a couple days of this he purchased an airplane at this field and solved this problem. Money never was an issue for this man but time was. The purchase solved the time problem. He sold the airplane after he was done training in it and purchased something he really wanted.

 

[paflyer]

I know a man who when taking his training in Florida the school kept putting his training off because of lack of airplane needed for training. After a couple days of this he purchased an airplane at this field and solved this problem. Money never was an issue for this man but time was. The purchase solved the time problem. He sold the airplane after he was done training in it and purchased something he really wanted.

In that guy's case Salty's analysis was immaterial.

 

[gitmo234]

My experience matches Gary down to the model. I bought a '56 172 because I was tired of trying to schedule training and having trouble working around other students and I was tired of paying so much. Nobody at my flight school took me seriously when I mentioned I might buy, so it was one reason I left. I bought and moved elsewhere. Flew the snot out of the airplane that I bought for $25k, including a garmin 430, paid very little for annuals (comparatively), took it all over on vacation, from PA to Georgia, Mississippi, etc. Then sold it for what I paid. I took that money and put it into some very well performing investments while deployed (guaranteed 10% return on $10k, for a year) and some others, (including a couple of really big lucky hits on digital currency trading) and when I returned home from the deployment I bought a Mooney.

My only regret was listening to the people at my first flight school and the nay-sayers a bit too much. I wish I would've made the jump sooner. I even used that 172 (and now my mooney) for work travel. At one point I was commuting into the DC FRZ in the Mooney while I waited on my house to sell for my move. Saved me several nights away from home when I needed to travel 5 hours one way for a meeting. Instead I made it a 60-90 minute flight.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Salty]

My experience matches Gary down to the model. I bought a '56 172 because I was tired of trying to schedule training and having trouble working around other students and I was tired of paying so much. Nobody at my flight school took me seriously when I mentioned I might buy, so it was one reason I left. I bought and moved elsewhere. Flew the snot out of the airplane that I bought for $25k, including a garmin 430, paid very little for annuals (comparatively), took it all over on vacation, from PA to Georgia, Mississippi, etc. Then sold it for what I paid. I took that money and put it into some very well performing investments while deployed (guaranteed 10% return on $10k, for a year) and some others, (including a couple of really big lucky hits on digital currency trading) and when I returned home from the deployment I bought a Mooney.

My only regret was listening to the people at my first flight school and the nay-sayers a bit too much. I wish I would've made the jump sooner. I even used that 172 (and now my mooney) for work travel. At one point I was commuting into the DC FRZ in the Mooney while I waited on my house to sell for my move. Saved me several nights away from home when I needed to travel 5 hours one way for a meeting. Instead I made it a 60-90 minute flight.

Your mileage may vary.

i don't think anybody is arguing it's a bad idea. I'm certainly not. But, it's not a money saving guarantee.

 

[John221us]

i don't think anybody is arguing it's a bad idea. I'm certainly not. But, it's not a money saving guarantee.

Well, some people, above, say it is a bad idea. I think it really depends on each persons situation. If you have the money and you are pretty sure you want to get your certificate, then it certainly could be a good idea. It was for me. I have also known people that got their ticket on a shoe string and buying wasn't an option for them.

 

[Salty]

Well, some people, above, say it is a bad idea. I think it really depends on each persons situation. If you have the money and you are pretty sure you want to get your certificate, then it certainly could be a good idea. It was for me. I have also known people that got their ticket on a shoe string and buying wasn't an option for them.

Ok, in some ways it is a bad idea. Unless you are independently wealthy, it's a pretty big risk. You could easily get a nightmare aircraft, or never finish your training. Happens all the time.

 

[BigBadLou]

i don't think anybody is arguing it's a bad idea. I'm certainly not. But, it's not a money saving guarantee.

Agreed.
I'd probably say that it instead offers a freedom-of-scheduling guarantee and freedom-of-aggravation guarantee.
But again, it depends on how lucky one gets with the airplane one buys. Though one also presses luck when renting from a school because no airplanes are in perfect working condition at all times. Things tend to break no matter who owns the plane.
I got lucky and spent maybe $8k on two tickets which turned out much cheaper than going through local flight schools.

It really depends on one's priorities.

 

[timwinters]

Let's do the math.

I did the math, and like I said, my total cost for about 2 years and 250 hours was less than $90/hr. One big difference between my math any yours is that I was buying 0E autogas for about $1.65 back in 2002 and 2003. A minor difference is that my hangar back then only cost me $75/mo.

The 152s at the airport back then were renting for more.

Again, the cost of ownership is very area dependent. And you must be very careful with the prebuy. In my case, I had a very good friend who was our corporate jet A&P at FedEd, who had ample single engine experience, and would thoroughly check out anything I was considering....for cheap. Tim saved me from making a few expensive mistakes.

i don't think anybody is arguing it's a bad idea. I'm certainly not. But, it's not a money saving guarantee.

very true.

 

[MIFlyer]

If you want to own an airplane, buy one. If the issue is primarily economics, why are you getting a private certificate

can I pay you to stop by my office or home once a day and make that statement. I need help getting past the logic and financial analysis that shows it to be a truly bad financial decision

 

[MIFlyer]

To the OP, while i'm wrestling with buying now, I would have absolutely saved to buy the PA 32 I wanted to buy and doing my Private in it, vs the $150/hr hobbs I paid the flight school for their 172.

DW wasn't quite on board yet, but I've almost got her there for buying a family traveler to get us out the club/renting and get us a more capable aircraft than I can rent anywhere near me

 

[GaryV]

I didn't pay an sales tax on the purchase or the sale. Welcome to Texas. The hanger runs $185 a month including electricity but I also used it initially to store some things that would have had to go into a storage until at $125 a month so I could argue that the hanger rent was offset by that much. In reality I didn't factor that in. I wanted my plane in a hanger but tie-down outside would have been something like $45 a month.

I did owner assisted annuals from the start and averaged $600 a year for the entire time I owned the plane. I didn't have to replace cylinders or anything else major (probably lucky on that). Insurance averaged $600 a year with the first year being max at $900 with zero time.

It worked out great for me but as I said earlier not for my friend that quit flying soon after buying his plane

Gary

 

[1600vw]

There is a local teen who wanted to get his PP a couple years ago. He purchased a 172 before taking his training. He did this to save money. He was lucky and the man who sold him the airplane financed it for him. This was maybe three years ago. Today this young man is a PP. He works hard to save every penny to fly. Very nice young man who acts 40 but is maybe 20 today and owns his own 172. Inspiring to say the least.

Tony