Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad" ?

Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

It all depends on what type of flying you are doing. There are some places where it works...and some where it does not.

In the Lear 60 there are situations where if you jam the power up, not only will you be doing 300kts in 2 seconds, but due to the high thrust line the nose will be pushed down a few degrees and you are now in a descent. Where does the argument at hand go for that?

As other pilots have said its an easy way to get people to wrap their minds around basic flight. But lets say you are in a high performance airplane holding altitude, atc asks you to slow down. Are you telling me your going to pitch up to the correct airspeed then use power to get back to your altitude? No, your going to pull the power first. Then the angle of attack will increase to maintain altitude as a result. You just used power for airspeed.

Its all action/reaction. Used in different ways depending on what you fly.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

MAKG1 said:
Huh? At constant angle of attack, an increase in speed results in a proportional increase in lift. Are you really saying that an increase in thrust doesn't result in an increase in speed at constant configuration and attitude?

Power is a change in energy flow. While there are other places for energy to go aside from altitude, most of it does go into potential energy, at constant attitude.

As you say, basics.
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I'll try to reduce the concept so it will be easier for you to understand.

Push in on the throttle.....increase thrust.
Pull back on the throttle.....decrease thrust.

Pull on the stick......increase pitch
Push on the stick.....decrease pitch

Please try not to complicate simple basics.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

220px-GodfreyKneller-IsaacNewton-1689.jpg
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

kgruber said:
I'll try to reduce the concept so it will be easier for you to understand.

Push in on the throttle.....increase thrust.
Pull back on the throttle.....decrease thrust.

Pull on the stick......increase pitch
Push on the stick.....decrease pitch

Please try not to complicate simple basics.
Click to expand...

And holy crap when you push in the throttle you go up.
And when you increase pitch you slow down. Amazing!
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Are you trying to make a statement with a photo of a vitamin B deficient hippie?
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

kgruber said:
I'll try to reduce the concept so it will be easier for you to understand.

Push in on the throttle.....increase thrust.
Pull back on the throttle.....decrease thrust.

Pull on the stick......increase pitch
Push on the stick.....decrease pitch

Please try not to complicate simple basics.
Click to expand...
So wait - if I push down on the flippers and pull back on the throttle will I go faster or slower?

Crap. I've spent too much time in the spin zone. I'm completely useless now as a regular poster.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

kgruber said:
I'll try to reduce the concept so it will be easier for you to understand.

Push in on the throttle.....increase thrust.
Pull back on the throttle.....decrease thrust.

Pull on the stick......increase pitch
Push on the stick.....decrease pitch

Please try not to complicate simple basics.
Click to expand...

Again, completely accurate, and totally useless for learning purposes. A student trying to maintain 70 on final won't have a clue whether the need a thrust change or an attitude change to hit their target speed.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

LDJones said:
Again, completely accurate, and totally useless for learning purposes. A student trying to maintain 70 on final won't have a clue whether the need a thrust change or an attitude change to hit their target speed.
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Hence what I said above about trimming for desired speed and then adjusting power for the desired climb/descent rate at that speed. I find that the folks who have trouble maintaining desired speed (70 or otherwise) are the ones who never learned (or were never taught) to trim for desired speed, and that's why they're always fighting the stick/yoke to obtain and maintain the desired speed and glide path. Once they learn that, attitude takes care of itself.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Ron Levy said:
Hence what I said above about trimming for desired speed and then adjusting power for the desired climb/descent rate at that speed. I find that the folks who have trouble maintaining desired speed (70 or otherwise) are the ones who never learned (or were never taught) to trim for desired speed, and that's why they're always fighting the stick/yoke to obtain and maintain the desired speed and glide path. Once they learn that, attitude takes care of itself.
Click to expand...

But you still need to pitch for the speed, then trim. Telling a student they need to trim for a particular speed has them running the trim wheel back and forth constantly. Pitch for the speed, trim out the control pressures. You're done.
 
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Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Fly the plane
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

The first step in teaching never flew before glider pilots, besides keeping the wings level,
PITCH CONTROLS AIRSPEED.

We have no power lever to operate. We do not worry about maintaining altitude.

First step in teaching power pilots to fly gliders, PITCH CONTROLS AIRSPEED.
Second step for power pilots, Spoiler controls rate of descent or glide path for landing.
Landing long, pull it out, increase spoiler drag, landing short push it in, clean up your wing.
DO NOT CHANGE YOUR PITCH/AIRSPEED!

Amazing how that transitions to an ILS.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

All the forces in an airplane are deeply intertwingled. Adding power affects both speed and rate of climb. Pitch affects both. You really want to have fun, fly a helicopter some time. Raising the collective causes torque. The pedal input to tail rotor counters torque, but it causes the aircraft to translate sideways a bit, to counter that you move the cyclic to counter the translation which decreases the lift of the rotor meaning you have to raise the cyclic to maintain altitude, .... lather, rinse, repeat.


The power = altitude isn't so much ALTITUDE, but flight path. When you're flying an approach, your glide path is controlled by the energy in the system. You can pull up to increase your altitude but you you slow down in the process, you end up (minus some loss to drag) in the same place. If you want to effect a change in the glideslope, you need to modulate power.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

taters said:
Fly the plane
Click to expand...

If it we're that easy, why is the NTSB so full of reports of people who don't seem to understand pitch for speed, throttle for altitude and angle of attack?

Stick and Rudder should be mandatory reading ;)
 
Seems to me this is a primary instruction fundamental, because trying to pitch for altitude on approach and landing is a good way to get way slow and bend the plane.
People learning to fly try to pitch to control the approach, not understanding the effect that has on airspeed.

"pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" seems a very useful way to break the expectations of people who are learning the complex interactions of pitch, power, trim, weight, and pilot commands.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
Additionally, it seems to me that the exact statement is trim controls speed.
If you are trimmed for a speed and increase power, pitch increases to maintain speed.
Of you are trimmed for a speed and decrease power, pitch decreases to maintain speed.

Seems to me that off you hold a pitch (say +5 degrees nose up) and increase power, you will have to trim down to maintain pitch, airspeed will increase.

Is it AOA that is stable at a given airspeed in unaccelerated flight?

PS: none of this changes my belief that "pitch = airspeed" is the right message to primary students.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
kgruber said:
It is an age old debate, but NEITHER side is completely correct.

What is correct is:

PITCH for attitude.

POWER for thrust.
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What if you are in a glider (intentionally or not intentionally.) Seems like there might be something even more basic as a ROT. Maybe AOA AOA AOA!
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Pitch for airspeed / Power for altitude is a great concept.

I certainly use it for landing or putting around slow. I would trim the pitch for airspeed and adjust power for glide-slope or to maintain altitude when slow.

But, in cruise, I trim power for a set amount and adjust pitch to maintain altitude. In this condition, airspeed is whatever I get...
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

supernovae said:
If it we're that easy, why is the NTSB so full of reports of people who don't seem to understand pitch for speed, throttle for altitude and angle of attack?

Stick and Rudder should be mandatory reading ;)
Click to expand...

FLY THE PLANE...

(BTW, that's what Stick and Rudder is all about, but, shssssh-don't tell anyone, okay?)

It has not a da*n thing to do with "easy" or not, nor anything to do with NTSB reports.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Ron Levy said:
People can argue with it because it is both simplistic and inaccurate. The better phrasing would be "trim for speed, and power for climb/descent rate at that speed." If you trim for any particular speed in level flight, so the plane stays at that speed and altitude hands-off, and then add power without changing the pressure on the stick/yoke, the pitch will increase and the airplane will climb, but the airplane will try to stay at the same speed (after an initial damped oscillation). If you then reduce power back below the original setting, the nose will drop and the plane will descend, but again, it will seek the original speed (again, after the initial oscillation damps out). That is why we teach folks for approaches to trim for desired speed and then use power changes to manage glide path in order to maintain a stabilized approach.
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Ron: this is how I set up my little airplane.

She does not have a cockpit adjustable trim. So I set the trim tap on the elevator " After I installed one", so my airplane flies level or hands off at about 23 inches on the MP gauge. That gives me about 70 on the ASI.

Any faster I am pushing on the stick. Any slower and she starts to get heavey on the stick.

Where I fly out of, both ends of the runway have either homes and tree's or tree's. I do not like dragging it in under power over these tree's or homes.

I come in at pattern alt. about 700', wait untill I can see the end of the runway over my shoulder. I then drop a wing and make a decending turn as I slide right over the tree's. I then lower power to right above idle and glide her down.

Simple and easy and so much more enjoyable then dragging it in over the tree's or coming straight in high under glide power.
That turning decent is a lot of fun, for me anyway. From the start of my turn to straight flight I drop about 200'. I then have a 500' glide down.

By the time I touch down I have the stick all the way back into my gut or very close to it. Now if I want to do a wheel landing I just ease up on the stick and land on the mains. So very simple.
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Here is what I was taught and will be teaching my students next month... When in flight, to help them develop a good habit to not fight the airplane, I say "Pitch, Power, Trim." Meaning, adjust pitch first to the desired airspeed, adjust power to make sure it will hold your intended altitude and doesn't red-line as the airspeed picks up in cruise, and then adjust your trim.

As it goes for descent and landing, I am always saying "Pitch for airspeed, throttle for altitude." Why the hell would you teach the opposite?, because then you are initially telling your student that it doesn't matter that the nose is 15 degrees above the horizon so long as you control your airspeed with your throttle??!, we all know that is a bunch of gabble-dey-gook... Why is this even an argument? lol
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

Seems to my simple brain that if I point the nose down I go faster and if I point it up I go slower....and then I fine tune how quickly I want to go up or down with the gas thingy
 
Re: Pitch for speed.. Throttle for Altitude - why are some peole saying this is "bad"

DutchessFlier said:
FLY THE PLANE...

(BTW, that's what Stick and Rudder is all about, but, shssssh-don't tell anyone, okay?)

It has not a da*n thing to do with "easy" or not, nor anything to do with NTSB reports.
Click to expand...

That's funny, because I could have sworn the author prefixed his statements and conclusions with rather profound statements on how many people forget this and end up dead. In fact, he predicted airplanes in 10 years would be redesigned around this concept to reduce fatalities.. obviously that didn't happen.
 
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