Piston Aircraft with 200 kts cruise?

[Ted]

I've dealt with a few Aero Commanders, excellent OEI performance, however I've not seen anything anything 'cheap' about dealing with them lol, on that end I'd say a Chieftain would win, and if you can get away with a short body Navajo, even better.

I'll defer to you on the Commanders, I just know my experience with the Navajos. I love flying them, don't get me wrong, but they're not really economical. Although having a JPI and running LOP would save a ton of fuel. The owners of the Navajo/Chieftains I flew were all ROP people. We burned 45-50 GPH block in the Chieftain. But we'd true out about 190 doing it.

 

[Henning]

I'll defer to you on the Commanders, I just know my experience with the Navajos. I love flying them, don't get me wrong, but they're not really economical. Although having a JPI and running LOP would save a ton of fuel. The owners of the Navajo/Chieftains I flew were all ROP people. We burned 45-50 GPH block in the Chieftain. But we'd true out about 190 doing it.

Economical is relative... 310 does me just fine.

 

[Ted]

Economical is relative... 310 does me just fine.

That part is true. The 310 is quite economical for what it is, and part of why I like it so much.

It's hard to call a Navajo economical for what it is. I'd take a 421 any day.

Of course, the 421 will take more runway.

 

[N801BH]

....... We burned 45-50 GPH block in the Chieftain. But we'd true out about 190 doing it.

.. That is ONE thirsty bird..

 

[Henning]

.. That is ONE thirsty bird..

It'll fly just fine on 32-35gph LOP.

 

[Henning]

That part is true. The 310 is quite economical for what it is, and part of why I like it so much.

It's hard to call a Navajo economical for what it is. I'd take a 421 any day.

Of course, the 421 will take more runway.

Me too, which is why I brought it up, plus you get pressurization.

 

[stratobee]

But can anyone really trust Cessna with all the SID's coming into play? The days are numbered for all old 100, 200 and 300 Cessnas as the SID's will eventually turn into SB's and then to AD's at some point. That's always how it goes. This might be easy to deal with on a 100 or 200 type high wing, but not very easy on a 300 type low wing.

 

[Henning]

But can anyone really trust Cessna with all the SID's coming into play? The days are numbered for all old 100, 200 and 300 Cessnas as the SID's will eventually turn into SB's and then to AD's at some point. That's always how it goes. This might be easy to deal with on a 100 or 200 type high wing, but not very easy on a 300 type low wing.

What SIDs are coming due on the 310? Mine has nothing that applies to it at this point. I'm not aware of anything coming due on the 421 either. I know there is an issue with the 414A and I think the 401 and the 425 but not quite sure on the specifics anymore.

 

[Ted]

.. That is ONE thirsty bird..

Yeah, the owner was all about "I didn't buy this to go slow." Most of the customers were counting minutes as we flew, so the extra 2 minutes went a long way for customer satisfaction. They paid the bills, so we operated it at 75% power and rich enough to keep things cool. Plus I couldn't convince them to buy a JPI.

Not how I would've run my plane at all.

It'll fly just fine on 32-35gph LOP.

It will, but not going the same speed. Actually when I was flying the short Navajo, I'd do 31"/2200 RPM and 36 GPH ROP and that would give me about 180 KTAS. At 32-35 GPH LOP the Chieftain would probably do 180-185.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, the owner was all about "I didn't buy this to go slow." Most of the customers were counting minutes as we flew, so the extra 2 minutes went a long way for customer satisfaction. They paid the bills, so we operated it at 75% power and rich enough to keep things cool. Plus I couldn't convince them to buy a JPI.

Not how I would've run my plane at all.



It will, but not going the same speed. Actually when I was flying the short Navajo, I'd do 31"/2200 RPM and 36 GPH ROP and that would give me about 180 KTAS. At 32-35 GPH LOP the Chieftain would probably do 180-185.

Yep, 3 miles a minute is where I operate most all of the genre.

 

[Alexb2000]

But have you flown the jet?

FWIW, I've narrowed down my choices/adjusted my priorities (focus on shorter family trips around the east coast and making the occasional VA-AZ trip in two days with an overnight in the DFW area with family):

C310
AC500
BE18

Obviously a big difference between the three.

The 310 has the speed, economy and fits in a T-hangar. The other two do not have any of those attributes, but have nicer cabins.

310....cheapest to acquire, maintain and operate. Just a good, efficient and fast airplane, but I suspect my wife will not be thrilled with the single over-wing entry.....she much prefers the 210 to the Duchess based on this for example.

AC 500.....Nice cabin....as mentioned earlier I love the personal airliner feel. I suspect my wife will like the cabin size and underwing entrance best.

BE18....My personal favorite....a mini-DC-3 with large cabin, engine are in the proper shape, make sweet sounds to my ears, wheel in back where it belongs and something that we can take to airshows.

In short, my bank account will probably prefer the 310, my style of flying prefers the Twin Beech and my wife will probably like the AC 500 best.

Of course, all of this is just dreaming until I get the approval from the spouse.....

I love the Beech 18 and I can see how much you would enjoy it.

In a world of $6 per gallon gas, I just can't see it. Say you plan 40 GPH that's a lot of cash to be going 165ish unpressurized. Hangar space, parking, etc, yikes.

The 310 may not be the same level of classic, but they're getting there and you can still buy any part you need for them.

Just a side note. Several years back on Beechtalk a guy offered anyone who wanted to fly a C-45H from California to Oshkosh to come out and do it for fuel and oil only. He didn't mean ride with him, he meant YOU can fly the whole way if you want to, he was an MEI. When people added up the cost.... zero takers.

 

[Ted]

The 310 may not be the same level of classic, but they're getting there and you can still buy any part you need for them.

That part is nice. If nothing else, the 470/520/550 series isn't going to lose support from Continental anytime soon. The planes themselves are also quite simple, many are available in junkyards, and there are lots of PMA/STC parts available. It really is a practical airplane in many ways. At least, compared to a Beech 18.

Just a side note. Several years back on Beechtalk a guy offered anyone who wanted to fly a C-45H from California to Oshkosh to come out and do it for fuel and oil only. He didn't mean ride with him, he meant YOU can fly the whole way if you want to, he was an MEI. When people added up the cost.... zero takers.

While that's an excellent deal for someone who is looking to build Beech 18 time, it's not a trip that most people would go for. Part of it goes back to Wayne's point that most people don't want to do a trip that long in a small plane. It's amazed me how many times I've flown Cloud Nine flights solo because nobody on my list wanted to come along, including people claiming to need to build multi time. "Do you have a shorter flight I could come on?" I have a better list now, so I doubt if I'll have that issue here.

We won't talk about vacation time requirements beyond that will rule a lot of people out. Then you get into affordability of something like that. As you pointed out - lots of fuel to go slow. If you're building hours then it's one thing time wise, but that's still a decent number of dollars per hour. Just hard for many folks to write that check. And the ones who can afford to probably aren't interested.

 

[Alexb2000]

While that's an excellent deal for someone who is looking to build Beech 18 time, it's not a trip that most people would go for. Part of it goes back to Wayne's point that most people don't want to do a trip that long in a small plane. It's amazed me how many times I've flown Cloud Nine flights solo because nobody on my list wanted to come along, including people claiming to need to build multi time. "Do you have a shorter flight I could come on?" I have a better list now, so I doubt if I'll have that issue here.

We won't talk about vacation time requirements beyond that will rule a lot of people out. Then you get into affordability of something like that. As you pointed out - lots of fuel to go slow. If you're building hours then it's one thing time wise, but that's still a decent number of dollars per hour. Just hard for many folks to write that check. And the ones who can afford to probably aren't interested.

I just don't understand people, we're talking about flying a Beech 18 half way across the country, that drips with nostalgia. I was crazy busy at the time or I would have gone out and done it. 40GPH X $6 =$240 say $250 with oil. They rent a POS Dutchess everyday in Dallas for $370 + $65 for an instructor or $435 an hour.

Your Cloud Nine stories are well... beyond bewildering. Maybe not, I can't even give away free G1000 time in a real aircraft, but I might be the reason for that.

Since we're talking about people not taking advantage of cheap or free flying... I double dog dare anyone to offer me free turbine time.

 

[Henning]

Actually, flying the Beech 18 isn't very challenging at all, taxiing OTOH, there can be a humbling experience. Once the tailwheel comes off the ground she's a perfect lady. The other issue most people have is they don't typically have an autopilot, although they don't particularly need one.

 

[Ted]

I just don't understand people, we're talking about flying a Beech 18 half way across the country, that drips with nostalgia. I was crazy busy at the time or I would have gone out and done it. 40GPH X $6 =$240 say $250 with oil. They rent a POS Dutchess everyday in Dallas for $370 + $65 for an instructor or $435 an hour.

I fully agree there. But someone like you or me who could afford to do the trip can't afford to take the time off. The people who probably have the time to do the trip can't afford to. And that's after you weed out the people who say "it's too far."

I would've been all over it 4 years ago. Today? Wouldn't happen.

Your Cloud Nine stories are well... beyond bewildering. Maybe not, I can't even give away free G1000 time in a real aircraft, but I might be the reason for that.

Maybe that's the issue, people don't want to spend that much time in a plane with me.

Part of the issue I think some of the time building folks don't get is that you can't get free time and get it be the way you want it. Free time comes with strings attached. Paid time comes with equal or more strings attached. Time you pay for you can set the calendar, but it comes out of your wallet. A lot of folks don't appreciate the work aspect that goes with loading 13 cages worth of dogs into and out of a plane, doing it on some form of schedule, 20-minute stops, etc. But if you can do Dog Flights, you can do any other flying job.

Since we're talking about people not taking advantage of cheap or free flying... I double dog dare anyone to offer me free turbine time.

Man, turbine time gets expensive really fast when you have to pay for it.

 

[wabower]

Well, you live in the same place as some double-dogs who've done it before. It could happen.

I just don't understand people, we're talking about flying a Beech 18 half way across the country, that drips with nostalgia. I was crazy busy at the time or I would have gone out and done it. 40GPH X $6 =$240 say $250 with oil. They rent a POS Dutchess everyday in Dallas for $370 + $65 for an instructor or $435 an hour.

Your Cloud Nine stories are well... beyond bewildering. Maybe not, I can't even give away free G1000 time in a real aircraft, but I might be the reason for that.

Since we're talking about people not taking advantage of cheap or free flying... I double dog dare anyone to offer me free turbine time.