PIREP: Czech Sportcruiser

[kimberlyanne546]

Hope it works out. Ever go out to dinner with people and everything was on one tab, and later feeling ripped off?

Oh I see what you mean. Well, I think to be fair we should write down his hobbs and my hobbs. That way, if my runup is quicker, or if he wants to practice something on "his" leg when he is the one sitting left seat for the 50+nm journey, he's paying.

 

[vintage cessna]

Oh I see what you mean. Well, I think to be fair we should write down his hobbs and my hobbs. That way, if my runup is quicker, or if he wants to practice something on "his" leg when he is the one sitting left seat for the 50+nm journey, he's paying.

So far you've got rule number 1. If you give it more thought, you can come up with more.

 

[bqmassey]

I hope to log some time in Sportcruiser soon. There's a nearby operation that has one.

At the moment, I'm doing my primary training in an A22 Valor. I really, really enjoy flying it. The visibility is outstanding.

I'm hoping that flying these light, small, simple aircraft allow a person to really master the fundamental stick-and-rudder skills. Thoughts on that?

My only concern is that getting checked out in a 172 or something will require a lot of additional training. I fear that I'll forgot carb heat, forgot to adjust mixture, and other things that aren't required in the LSA I fly, but are ingrained in other student pilots from day one.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I hope to log some time in Sportcruiser soon. There's a nearby operation that has one.

At the moment, I'm doing my primary training in an A22 Valor. I really, really enjoy flying it. The visibility is outstanding.

I'm hoping that flying these light, small, simple aircraft allow a person to really master the fundamental stick-and-rudder skills. Thoughts on that?

My only concern is that getting checked out in a 172 or something will require a lot of additional training. I fear that I'll forgot carb heat, forgot to adjust mixture, and other things that aren't required in the LSA I fly, but are ingrained in other student pilots from day one.

I see you have three blades on that prop. When I asked the new CTLS owner why he has three and my old Cessna's only have two, I got mixed answers. One said pilots think it is sexier. The other says it makes things smoother.

 

[alfadog]

If your flying is primarily recreational, once you go LSA, you never go back. Someone with low time and no LSA experience can probably expect about a three hour total flight time checkout, especially if the owner is doing the checkout.

I did my CTLS transition with under 80 hours PIC time (I do not count my other 30 - 40 hours PIC from 34 years previous as that was long gone, skill-wise). I studied the syllabus and the manual and did it in less than half the syllabus time (1 hour ground and 1.5 dual) because I was well-prepared and had been doing a lot of practice in the 80 hours in Cessnas. They normally require the full program. Moral = study + practice. Stalls are stalls. Slow flight is slow flight.

 

[alfadog]

Not sure what you mean. This guy works there, he joined me on a Bay Tour one day asking if he could come along with me and the airport manager. I found out he was a pilot checked out in the 150 and I asked if he needed XC hours like me. It was my idea, and not sure if our schedules will ever agree.

You do realize the cost split where you only pay half the rental is Mickey Mouse, don't you? It is designed for instrument training and recurrent work but is used (misused?) to build (pad?) hours. The pilot flying must be under the hood and the safety pilot must be legal PIC which runs afoul of some club rules. Sounds like that bit isn't an issue for you but is hood flying what you are looking for??

 

[kimberlyanne546]

You do realize the cost split where you only pay half the rental is Mickey Mouse, don't you? It is designed for instrument training and recurrent work but is used (misused?) to build (pad?) hours. The pilot flying must be under the hood and the safety pilot must be legal PIC which runs afoul of some club rules. Sounds like that bit isn't an issue for you but is hood flying what you are looking for??

Wait what?

He is a private pilot. So am I. Neither of us want anything more than to get to our 50 hours of XC. This is a way I can afford to fly twice as often as I normally would (and a 50nm XC in a 150 takes close to an hour all said and done each way).

Also, I made sure we weren't breaking any rules. I talked to all parties involved.

 

[alfadog]

I see you have three blades on that prop. When I asked the new CTLS owner why he has three and my old Cessna's only have two, I got mixed answers. One said pilots think it is sexier. The other says it makes things smoother.

In a small airplane like that ground clearance might be an issue. I understand a two-blade prop is more efficient in cruise and a 3-blade in climb. The CTLS prop pitch is ground adjustable so you can tweak it for your mission, training or cruisng.

 

[Henning]

After flying the SportCruiser and realizing how much fun I had, I probably won't be going back to the Pipers or Cessnas myself.

If you don't have a problem keeping a medical going there is an entire experimental fleet that opens up that is a way better deal on 2 seaters without the restrictions and much lower buy ins. An RV4 can be bought pretty reasonably. There is enough talent in RVs that you can get a good inspection done. I haven't seen one flying that was junk.

 

[bqmassey]

I see you have three blades on that prop. When I asked the new CTLS owner why he has three and my old Cessna's only have two, I got mixed answers. One said pilots think it is sexier. The other says it makes things smoother.

Yea, I'm not sure what the significance is. It's a cool prop/hub though. You can loosen it and adjust the pitch of it on the ground.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

In a small airplane like that ground clearance might be an issue. I understand a two-blade prop is more efficient in cruise and a 3-blade in climb. The CTLS prop pitch is ground adjustable so you can tweak it for your mission, training or cruisng.

Yes but he said they told him that voids his warranty, which is a nice warranty. So no adjustments for him, for now.

 

[alfadog]

Yes but he said they told him that voids his warranty, which is a nice warranty. So no adjustments for him, for now.

Huh? That doesn't sound right. That is what they are designed for. Perhaps he does not have the adjustable prop?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Huh? That doesn't sound right. That is what they are designed for. Perhaps he does not have the adjustable prop?

No, he does. He gave a presentation on it in front of everyone since the guy who was gonna do the 787 presentation was in the hospital that night - so we had nobody to present. I distinctly remember him saying how cool it was that you could adjust the prop - but that he wouldn't - because it would void his warranty.

 

[alfadog]

No, he does. He gave a presentation on it in front of everyone since the guy who was gonna do the 787 presentation was in the hospital that night - so we had nobody to present. I distinctly remember him saying how cool it was that you could adjust the prop - but that he wouldn't - because it would void his warranty.

Well, he would know but the outfit I used to rent from adjusted theirs; or rather the mechanic did. Maybe it only voids the warranty if he does it himself?

 

[alfadog]

Wait what?

He is a private pilot. So am I. Neither of us want anything more than to get to our 50 hours of XC. This is a way I can afford to fly twice as often as I normally would (and a 50nm XC in a 150 takes close to an hour all said and done each way).

Also, I made sure we weren't breaking any rules. I talked to all parties involved.

By "fly" do you mean sit in the right seat as pax and not log hours? Because when you are flying and logging, you are paying the full rental rate.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Well, he would know but the outfit I used to rent from adjusted theirs; or rather the mechanic did. Maybe it only voids the warranty if he does it himself?

Don't know, his is literally new (2012 model) so maybe they changed some things after they saw a lot of inside warranty claims related to prop adjustments? I will see him soon, or within a month anyhow at the next meeting. I'll ask him then.

 

[alfadog]

Don't know, his is literally new (2012 model) so maybe they changed some things after they saw a lot of inside warranty claims related to prop adjustments? I will see him soon, or within a month anyhow at the next meeting. I'll ask him then.

I see they also now offer a true variable-pitch prop that you can adjust in flight.

 

[alfadog]

Wait what?

He is a private pilot. So am I. Neither of us want anything more than to get to our 50 hours of XC. This is a way I can afford to fly twice as often as I normally would (and a 50nm XC in a 150 takes close to an hour all said and done each way).

Also, I made sure we weren't breaking any rules. I talked to all parties involved.

Because when you said "I have a $40 per hour plane" I assumed you are talking about the hood/safety thing because that is the only way a PPL gets that two-pilot split.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Because when you said "I have a $40 per hour plane" I assumed you are tsalking about the hood/safety thing because that is the only way a PPL gets that two-pilot split.

Nope, I can't afford instrument training right now. I am pretty sure he can't either. I asked him his personal aviation related goals, and told him mine. Turns out they are the same:

Get more radio experience (class C / D / B / Flight Following / Flight Watch / PIREPS)

Get more cross country hours

Fly to new airports never seen before

Fly more often

Work on manuevers (though not sure how I feel about that).

 

[alfadog]

Nope, I can't afford instrument training right now. I am pretty sure he can't either. I asked him his personal aviation related goals, and told him mine. Turns out they are the same:

Get more radio experience (class C / D / B / Flight Following / Flight Watch / PIREPS)

Get more cross country hours

Fly to new airports never seen before

Fly more often

Work on manuevers (though not sure how I feel about that).

Yep, I did it many times myself. You get to go further for your $160 say because you each fly one way and the other pilot helps out with radios and navigation. You certainly learn stuff sitting in the right seat. My only point being that for time you actually log, you pay full rate.

It always worked out for me. Each pays their Hobbs. Since you are wet, you do not even need to factor in fuel.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Yep, I did it many times myself. You get to go further for your $160 say because you each fly one way and the other pilot helps out with radios and navigation. You certainly learn stuff sitting in the right seat. My only point being that for time you actually log, you pay full rate.

It always worked out for me. Each pays their Hobbs. Since you are wet, you do not even need to factor in fuel.

Correct and sure I understand I won't be logging his time in the left seat but I get an XC item for under $80 - could not do that before cuz I would have had to pay for my flight back.

 

[alfadog]

Correct and sure I understand I won't be logging his time in the left seat but I get an XC item for under $80 - could not do that before cuz I would have had to pay for my flight back.

And when you are ready to start your hood work, then you can both log all the hours if you work out the "legal PIC" thing properly. That has its place but was overused and abused. Of course, then you do not get to enjoy the beautiful scenery when you are flying left seat.

 

[alfadog]

Correct and sure I understand I won't be logging his time in the left seat but I get an XC item for under $80 - could not do that before cuz I would have had to pay for my flight back.

So if you can find someone to split the CTLS then it is not that much more and there is a lot to learn from the right seat in that airplane. Lots of gadgets.

 

[Henning]

No, he does. He gave a presentation on it in front of everyone since the guy who was gonna do the 787 presentation was in the hospital that night - so we had nobody to present. I distinctly remember him saying how cool it was that you could adjust the prop - but that he wouldn't - because it would void his warranty.

He's got something not right. I think what it may do is take him out of LSA.

 

[vintage cessna]

If you don't have a problem keeping a medical going there is an entire experimental fleet that opens up that is a way better deal on 2 seaters without the restrictions and much lower buy ins. An RV4 can be bought pretty reasonably. There is enough talent in RVs that you can get a good inspection done. I haven't seen one flying that was junk.

I'm not going to say there is a typical LSA buyer, but a lot of these people have several things in common.

Late 40's to early 60's in age, new to aviation, would no sooner consider buying a 1975 airplane than they would a 1975 car, don't even want to hear the word "experimental", and want glass, even though only flying day VFR.

It's not always about what makes the most sense, but what people want.

 

[cessna182b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZAW_SportCruiser

The plane I saw was called the Sky Cruiser:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/15/3265478-fast_and_sleek_Sky_Cruiser_Morganton.jpg

Here is another link:

http://www.aviationbull.com/sky-cruiser

There hasn't been much about it in the media,

Dave

 

[zaitcev]

The Piper Sport looks slick, but the Skycatcher is about 10kts faster, climbs better also. Have fun flying in a bubble canopy in the summer.

Where does the information come from? The book cruise speed is 112 knots for C-162 and 115 knots for SportCruiser. The maximum full-throttle speed for Skycatcher is 118 knots.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I started out flying light planes cross country so it's no big deal to me. As far as gusts go the lighter weight allows for faster adjustment on landing. Certainly, my RV-10 is certainly more comfortable, but I would much rather fly the RV-12. It's just more fun.



The Rotax 912 series engines are amazing for light aircraft. The reliability is now beyond question for the US market, and the economy is amazing at 4-5 GPM burning car gas. Electronic ignition, auto spark plugs, self adjust mixture controls, less work load!

And now fuel injection!
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/rotax-launches-fuel-injected-912-engine

I hope you mean GPH

 

[vintage cessna]

Where does the information come from? The book cruise speed is 112 knots for C-162 and 115 knots for SportCruiser. The maximum full-throttle speed for Skycatcher is 118 knots.

From flying both airplanes. Assuming both planes at max takeoff weight and both equipped with wheel pants you can expect 105 kts TAS for the Piper Sport and 118 kts TAS for the C162[and that is not full throttle].

 

[vintage cessna]

Where does the information come from? The book cruise speed is 112 knots for C-162 and 115 knots for SportCruiser. The maximum full-throttle speed for Skycatcher is 118 knots.

If you look at the book number for the C162 climb rate, that is conservative also. If you ever get a chance to compare the two aircraft, besides speed and climb rate compare the glide ratio.

If you practice an engine out in the pattern with a Piper Sport, the first thing you do is point the nose to the runway or you won't make it. The C162 glides like a 172.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm not going to say there is a typical LSA buyer, but a lot of these people have several things in common.

Late 40's to early 60's in age, new to aviation, would no sooner consider buying a 1975 airplane than they would a 1975 car, don't even want to hear the word "experimental", and want glass, even though only flying day VFR.

It's not always about what makes the most sense, but what people want.

It's not about glass, it's the medical. If they opened the field by allowing the sport pilot medical rules for aircraft outside LSA, LSA would die overnight. The only thing that keeps those 118kts contraptions afloat is the medical. There's much better value in non-LSA, experimental or not, than in LSA.

 

[maddog52]

Yeah, I was thinking that too about the Comet. They make it open cockpit also with just windscreens but that has its own drawbacks.

The Comet actually has four different canopy configurations. Two seat open cockpit (standard). Two seat bubble canopy ( it takes about five minutes to change from bubble to open cockpit). Single seat open cockpit and single seat bubble cockpit(called the racing canopy). It takes about five minutes to change from double open to single open cockpit and about 15 minutes to change to the single bubble because you have to change out the cockpit coaming. All four configurations are very comfortable. both of the bubble canopies have dual air vents that give great airflow and as long as you don't wear a black hat and shirt in the summer, you'll stay cool.

The plane flies even better than it looks. Very responsive without being twitchy. The four near full span ailerons give a very fast roll rate and good short field capability. Excellent rudder and elevator authority. It leaps off the ground with the Rotax 912 100 hp. With the Lycoming AEIO-233 at 124 hp installed, it'll be a rocket. It is by far the coolest SLSA on the planet.

But don't take my word for it. We got Jim Lawrence a ride at Sun N Fun and he will have an article in an upcoming Plane and Pilot about it.

 

[maddog52]

It's not about glass, it's the medical. If they opened the field by allowing the sport pilot medical rules for aircraft outside LSA, LSA would die overnight. The only thing that keeps those 118kts contraptions afloat is the medical. There's much better value in non-LSA, experimental or not, than in LSA.

Sport Pilot starts might take a hit. But until somone actually sells a new factory built light airplane that isn't some rehash of a 50 year old design for less than $300,000 there will be a market for SLSAs.

 

[alfadog]

The Comet actually has four different canopy configurations. Two seat open cockpit (standard). Two seat bubble canopy ( it takes about five minutes to change from bubble to open cockpit). Single seat open cockpit and single seat bubble cockpit(called the racing canopy). It takes about five minutes to change from double open to single open cockpit and about 15 minutes to change to the single bubble because you have to change out the cockpit coaming. All four configurations are very comfortable. both of the bubble canopies have dual air vents that give great airflow and as long as you don't wear a black hat and shirt in the summer, you'll stay cool.

The plane flies even better than it looks. Very responsive without being twitchy. The four near full span ailerons give a very fast roll rate and good short field capability. Excellent rudder and elevator authority. It leaps off the ground with the Rotax 912 100 hp. With the Lycoming AEIO-233 at 124 hp installed, it'll be a rocket. It is by far the coolest SLSA on the planet.

But don't take my word for it. We got Jim Lawrence a ride at Sun N Fun and he will have an article in an upcoming Plane and Pilot about it.

Neat. I looked it over pretty good at the LSA Expo and was very impressed. If I could afford a toy like that it would definitely be on my short list.

Hey, what do you think of what Kim said about her friend cannot have the prop on his new CTLS adjusted for pitch without voiding the warranty? Is that what is going on there???

 

[Henning]

Where does the information come from? The book cruise speed is 112 knots for C-162 and 115 knots for SportCruiser. The maximum full-throttle speed for Skycatcher is 118 knots.

Advertised numbers lie and are written by marketing departments. Try cruising a Malibu at advertised speeds and see what happens with a bit of time. I have never been in a DA-40 that would do advertised speeds.

 

[Henning]

Sport Pilot starts might take a hit. But until somone actually sells a new factory built light airplane that isn't some rehash of a 50 year old design for less than $300,000 there will be a market for SLSAs.

All any LSA I have seen is is just a rehash of 50 year old designs for $120k+. Considering that price point is far too high for the quality of construction and workmanship I am seeing there has not been an LSA yet I would consider anything approximating a 'good buy'. From an overall manufacturing standpoint, the LSA is a great deal because my margins are higher because I can build a cheap piece of crap.

 

[gprellwitz]

No, he does. He gave a presentation on it in front of everyone since the guy who was gonna do the 787 presentation was in the hospital that night - so we had nobody to present. I distinctly remember him saying how cool it was that you could adjust the prop - but that he wouldn't - because it would void his warranty.

He's got something not right. I think what it may do is take him out of LSA.

I agree, he likely has something not properly understood, but a ground-adjustable prop is allowed by the LSA rules.

[QUOTE898092]No, he does. He gave a presentation on it in front of everyone since the guy who was gonna do the 787 presentation was in the hospital that night - so we had nobody to present. I distinctly remember him saying how cool it was that you could adjust the prop - but that he wouldn't - because it would void his warranty.

I see they also now offer a true variable-pitch prop that you can adjust in flight.[/QUOTE]

This, however would take it out of the LSA category. Note the "fixed or ground-adjustable propeller" in the accompanying graphic:

http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/aircraft_index.html

 

[zaitcev]

Advertised numbers lie and are written by marketing departments. Try cruising a Malibu at advertised speeds and see what happens with a bit of time. I have never been in a DA-40 that would do advertised speeds.

On the other hand, I rent and Arrow meets its book numbers almost exactly, at various altitudes (not even POH numbers, but those from Piper's Information Manual).

As far as LSAs go, there's a lot of difference in performance, some inexplicable. From my direct experience, a CTLS N505MA is much faster than GX N28GX. It was faster even before the owner re-pitched the prop on the latter for climb. I'm going to get new numbers in a couple of weeks, while flying to FTG for the LSA Expo.

 

[maddog52]

All any LSA I have seen is is just a rehash of 50 year old designs for $120k+. Considering that price point is far too high for the quality of construction and workmanship I am seeing there has not been an LSA yet I would consider anything approximating a 'good buy'. From an overall manufacturing standpoint, the LSA is a great deal because my margins are higher because I can build a cheap piece of crap.

You may be satisfied to only build a cheap piece of crap, but the manufacturing, fit, finish, and performance of alot of the SLSAs I've seen are equal to or better than the spam cans sold at two or three times the price. New construction techniques, and modern engine technology make for effecient aircraft for a lot of GA flying.

If you insist on comparing the the quality of EXAB to the factory built SLSAs, the majority of EXABs will loose big time.

 

[maddog52]

Neat. I looked it over pretty good at the LSA Expo and was very impressed. If I could afford a toy like that it would definitely be on my short list.

Hey, what do you think of what Kim said about her friend cannot have the prop on his new CTLS adjusted for pitch without voiding the warranty? Is that what is going on there???

Two issues. One is that they are trying to prevent owners from tweeking it out of the LSA VH of 120 KCAS. This would also void the airworthiness certificate. Another issue is that all the performance numbers were based on the tested pitch setting. Once you change that, all the published numbers are void and the manufacturer doesn't want to be held responsible for any accidents caused by this.

Adding an inflight adjustable pitch propeller is definitely against the ATSM standards and regs.