Pipistrel Panthera - The perfect airplane?

[Bell206]

I’d be interested in knowing the specifics of when the use of "aircraft groups" was revised out of the E/E process a number of years ago.

Looking in an older version of the 8130.2, the groups were still listed in 2010. Don’t really know when they were revised out except, I believe they dropped the geographical operational limits as well at the same time.

Whether an aircraft was type certified in another country does not to the best of my knowledge make a regulatory difference when applying for N-registration under FAA Experimental Exhibition, and I would not expect that a Bölkow 207 would get any other airworthiness certificate than E/E.

You are probably correct. However, I would recommend you at least inquire with both the EASA and FAA since the 207 does have a valid EASA TC. The bi-lateral agreements between the FAA and the EASA are different than those older LBA agreements. In some cases the newer EASA agreements can offer a different or updated route toward receiving reciprocal approvals. The worst they can say is no and you go E/E.

And to add, aircraft registration (N-number) is a separate and independent process from the airworthiness certification process (AWC – E/E). No airworthiness certification can take place until after the aircraft is properly registered or has started the new registration process in some cases. This is why it is very important to know and understand all the airworthiness certification requirements and possibilities prior to starting dereg/rereg process when importing an aircraft.

The issue with manufacturing traceability also makes no difference when N-registering e.g. a Yak-52 in E/E.

This point was only in response to your comment on the AN2. The only issue I was aware of back then with the AN2s dealt with their use under the Restricted Category and not E/E as I believe there are a couple dozen AN2s operating under E/E in the US. Traceability comes into play for commercial ops not private ops.

And apparently neither factor affected thirteen uncertified anywhere Pantheras sold in the US for personal transportation either,

And it shouldn’t. The use of E/E for the Panthera is perfectly acceptable and the process has been used for similar aircraft for quite some time. Personally, I see no issues based on my experience dealing with E/E aircraft.

 

[Bell206]

Is it legal to use an E/E for personal business travel?

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would think if you followed the Part 91 experimental ops rules, your AWC operation limitations, and no "for hire" type ops why not? But would defer to others for a final decision on the matter.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the end I decided to stick with my current Bölkow 209, which is as you mentioned FAA type certified

Whoa, you have a Bo209? Cool!

It's kinda too bad they didn't take off, so to speak... I like the idea of the "everyman's airplane" that can easily be taken home and stored in your garage to save $$$. I'm guessing not a whole lot of owners actually do that, though, given the potential costs if you're in an accident while towing it - The other person I know who has one keeps it in a hangar at the airport, and I'm guessing you probably all do.

The only issue I was aware of back then with the AN2s dealt with their use under the Restricted Category and not E/E as I believe there are a couple dozen AN2s operating under E/E in the US.

There are seven on the registry - Six Experimental/Exhibition and one Unknown/None owned by Kermit Weeks (who also owns one of the E/E ones).

 

[Bell206]

There are seven on the registry

Is that only under Antonov? If so need to also check under the Polish OEM. I believe it has PZL in its name. As I recall there were more Polish made AN-2s in the US than Russian made.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Is that only under Antonov? If so need to also check under the Polish OEM. I believe it has PZL in its name. As I recall there were more Polish made AN-2s in the US than Russian made.

Yes, I only looked up Antonov.

 

[NorthEast Ohio]

Only to those willing and able to spend close to a million dollars for an airplane.

So the Pantera specs make it look like a “Cirrus killer“.
But if you had $1 million to spend on an airplane, would you buy an air frame that had 20+ years of experience and service and support in all 50 states?
Or, Would you buy the airplane that has zero support and appears to be abandoned by Textron?

 

[Salty]

So the Pantera specs make it look like a “Cirrus killer“.
But if you had $1 million to spend on an airplane, would you buy an air frame that had 20+ years of experience and service and support in all 50 states?
Or, Would you buy the airplane that has zero support and appears to be abandoned by Textron?

Me personally, I'd buy the one that's certified experimental. Even exhibition. Unlike a certified aircraft that's abandoned by Textron, you'd still be able to put newer and better equipment in it and keep it running.

To your point however, the person that has a million dollars to blow on an aircraft is more likely to want the Cirrus.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So the Pantera specs make it look like a “Cirrus killer“.
But if you had $1 million to spend on an airplane, would you buy an air frame that had 20+ years of experience and service and support in all 50 states?
Or, Would you buy the airplane that has zero support and appears to be abandoned by Textron?

How do you think it "appears to be abandoned?" Textron bought Pipistrel relatively recently, and the Panthera was the only Pipistrel aircraft I saw at the Textron booth at Oshkosh. I hardly think that points to it being "abandoned".

 

[AKiss20]

How do you think it "appears to be abandoned?" Textron bought Pipistrel relatively recently, and the Panthera was the only Pipistrel aircraft I saw at the Textron booth at Oshkosh. I hardly think that points to it being "abandoned".

True but Textron doesn’t have a great track record of keeping up high performance single piston aircraft. They bought Columbia and shuttered the TTx line only 5 years later.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

True but Textron doesn’t have a great track record of keeping up high performance single piston aircraft. They bought Columbia and shuttered the TTx line only 5 years later.

Probably because, like everyone in that particular segment, they were getting their @$$es handed to them by Cirrus. (See also Mooney, and Textron's other subsidiary, Beechcraft.)

But, the 350 only lasted 3 years past the Cessna purchase, while the 400 lasted for 11 years. The "Columbiessna" models suffered from tiny cabins and poor visibility, though that did get them some additional speed above the SR22 it wasn't enough to make up for the lack of comfort.

On the flip side, the Panthera has a huge cabin and the option for a parachute, which has sold a lot of SR22s. They have a chance to make a decent sized dent in Cirrus' dominance of the high performance single market, though they're probably going to need to offer a turbo model at some point to really do it, and they're going to need to learn from Cirrus how to market.

 

[Cluemeister]

On the flip side, the Panthera has a huge cabin and the option for a parachute, which has sold a lot of SR22s. They have a chance to make a decent sized dent in Cirrus' dominance of the high performance single market, though they're probably going to need to offer a turbo model at some point to really do it, and they're going to need to learn from Cirrus how to market.

I looked at the Panthera, but no a/c and no de-icing, combined with the concern over experimental exhibition limitations made it a no go. But it's a great looking plane with some great performance numbers!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I looked at the Panthera, but no a/c and no de-icing, combined with the concern over experimental exhibition limitations made it a no go. But it's a great looking plane with some great performance numbers!

I think there is an A/C option... Or maybe I'm just crossing wires in my brain from all the stuff at Oshkosh. It's electric IIRC.

And, I'm making all of my assumptions based on them actually certifying it. They've done an amazing job with physics, let's see if they can do the same with paperwork.

 

[Jim K]

And, I'm making all of my assumptions based on them actually certifying it. They've done an amazing job with physics, let's see if they can do the same with paperwork.

Well, the fact it was on display at OSH is a somewhat promising sign. IIRC when Textron acquired Pipistrel, they explicitly said they were after the electric trainers. I assumed they'd bury the Panthera

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, the fact it was on display at OSH is a somewhat promising sign. IIRC when Textron acquired Pipistrel, they explicitly said they were after the electric trainers. I assumed they'd bury the Panthera

Oddly enough, I did NOT see any of the other Pipistrel aircraft there. I hope they keep most/all of them going, they make some cool stuff. Electric trainers, easily convertable airplane/motorgliders (and motorgliders don't need a medical at all...), and some wildly efficient little planes. The Panthera is the one I want now, but someday a Sinus or Taurus Electro wouldn't make a bad little retirement plane.

 

[Spinka]

Pipistrel has been very good at coming up with projects that receive grant money for development from the EU. A lot of it is R&D that never goes into production and often was never intended to do so either.

 

[TCABM]

Pipistrel has been very good at coming up with projects that receive grant money for development from the EU. A lot of it is R&D that never goes into production and often was never intended to do so either.

I need to figure out how to get grant money to build an RV-10.

 

[Tusayan]

Pipistrel has been very good at coming up with projects that receive grant money for development from the EU. A lot of it is R&D that never goes into production and often was never intended to do so either.

Bingo The Panthera was pitched as an electric aircraft in its ultimate intended configuration.

A friend worked in a relevant position for the Slovenian government, and in its interaction with the EU. It’s a very small country and the players in government/research/money know each other. Her view of Ivo Boscarol (Pipistrel founder) was mixed.

 

[Jeff767]

I could see FAA not allowing further import and certification at some point, but could they pull the existing certifications (ground the planes)? That would only seem to punish the owners, but if it was for some “legitimate” public safety reason, it seems possible, no? That would be a very expensive financial loss to owners.

They don’t need to ground the aircraft. They need only enforce the existing regulations. The FAA has been very lenient with the E/E category. If more aircraft start using exhibition to circumvent the intent I would absolutely expect them to crack down on E/E aircraft. The other issue not mentioned is insurance. It’s going to be difficult to obtain and expensive if available. Stretching the use beyond the intent of E/E might find you uninsured if there is a claim.

Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.

 

[Bell206]

They need only enforce the existing regulations. The FAA has been very lenient with the E/E category.

Curious. Do you have any examples of this? I’ve found the enforcement has been basically the same over the years with some areas having more oversight than others. While the FAA did streamline the E/E certification process and dropped most geographical limitations a number of years ago, they didn’t drop the core requirements: an E/E applicant must request a yearly Program Letter, follow their operating limitations, and actually exhibit their aircraft at an appropriate event. So the owners of an E/E Panthera are not exempt from those requirements and are still limited in what they can legally do with the aircraft.

Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.

FYI: the available E/E guidance offers a more detailed event listing. Here's 2 versions: one past, one present.

 

[donjohnston]

Well, the fact it was on display at OSH is a somewhat promising sign. IIRC when Textron acquired Pipistrel, they explicitly said they were after the electric trainers. I assumed they'd bury the Panthera

The number of aircraft, engines and avionics that I've seen displayed at Oshkosh which have never become available is pretty large.

 

[Jim K]

The number of aircraft, engines and avionics that I've seen displayed at Oshkosh which have never become available is pretty large.

That's fair, but hey, no one expected Delta hawk to make it to market either. I'm just saying that if Textron was planning to kill it, I don't think they would've brought it.

Actually, that made me wonder.... Did they have a bonanza and/or Baron on display? I didn't even wander through their area.

 

[Salty]

That's fair, but hey, no one expected Delta hawk to make it to market either. I'm just saying that if Textron was planning to kill it, I don't think they would've brought it.

Actually, that made me wonder.... Did they have a bonanza and/or Baron on display? I didn't even wander through their area.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Delta Hawk has "made it to the market".

 

[Jim K]

I'm not sure I'd agree that Delta Hawk has "made it to the market".

It's certified. You can order one....kinda. Airframers are evaluating them. I'm gonna give it to them

 

[kujo806]

That's fair, but hey, no one expected Delta hawk to make it to market either. I'm just saying that if Textron was planning to kill it, I don't think they would've brought it.

Actually, that made me wonder.... Did they have a bonanza and/or Baron on display? I didn't even wander through their area.

They did not have either, which upsets me. Last year the question came up with a textron employee, is the company really supporting the bonanza and they said absolutely there are many orders. Then this year the only beech products were the Denali and king air.