Piper Cherokee fuel gauge?

jmarine225

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jmarine225
I have a Piper Cherokee with a left fuel gauge which keeps going to zero. I’ve had the fuel sender and gauge replaced which fixed the issue. Back to zero again. I’ve had the mechanic remove the tank, test the sender, secure the grounds and couldn’t find any issues. Shortly after, back to zero again. At this point I’m out of ideas. These repairs so far have cost me over $1500 and the gauge still goes back to zero eventually. Looking for any additional suggestions before I sink another useless $1,000 into it, only to not have the same issue.
 
Looking for any additional suggestions
What specific model Cherokee?
By "go back to zero" you mean with fuel in tank after a period of time the needle drops to the zero mark or below the zero mark?
Does the right indicator needle move when the left moves to zero, or any other indicator?
Have the aircraft ground paths been checked back to the battery?
Have the voltages been checked to the indicator?
Have the wires/connections from the main bus to the indicator and to the sender been checked?
 
What specific model Cherokee?
By "go back to zero" you mean with fuel in tank after a period of time the needle drops to the zero mark or below the zero mark?
Does the right indicator needle move when the left moves to zero, or any other indicator?
Have the aircraft ground paths been checked back to the battery?
Have the voltages been checked to the indicator?
Have the wires/connections from the main bus to the indicator and to the sender been checked?
I believe it’s a 1969 Cherokee 140. By zero I mean gauge does not work at all. Per the mechanic they’ve added a new ground and tested every possible fault and couldn’t come up with anything. Next he suggested swapping fuel senders. The right tank and gauge has not had any issues.
 
What does "not work at all mean?" That general statement could mean many things. We need specifics.
Specifically, what are the symptoms? The tank is empty. You fill it. The gauge reads ?? After a time the gauge reads ??
When do the symptom(s) arise? In flight? Upon taxi? Upon power up?
 
By zero I mean gauge does not work at all.
Without knowing the values of the specific voltages and resistance checks can't really offer more.
Regardless, in my experience, for a new indicator/sender not to work as you state and it has battery voltage at the indicator and sender, it usually a bad ground circuit.
 
very hard to trouble shoot here on the forum because we can only guess, so with out actualy being there and seeing these things in person its only a guess. well here is another guess. Based on this: i once seen a shop (repair station) trying to work thru an ignition issue, starting with spark plugs, when that did'nt work they sent what they thought was the right mag out for overhaul (based on the owner, saying when he did a mag check issues happened when he switch to the right) when the mag came back, there was still the problem. they sent the wrong mag out, the "P" leads were switched. here is the guess; check that the fuel xmiter wires at the gage are not switched, you may be dealing with the wrong gage / xmiter.
 
What does "not work at all mean?" That general statement could mean many things. We need specifics.
Specifically, what are the symptoms? The tank is empty. You fill it. The gauge reads ?? After a time the gauge reads ??
When do the symptom(s) arise? In flight? Upon taxi? Upon power up?
I’m not a mechanic so I don’t know the specifics of electrical issues. I can tell you when there is fuel in the tank, battery on and/or engine running. The left fuel gauge does not work at all. That’s the extent of my knowledge of it. Mechanic said he added a new ground. Worked for a bit and it s not working again.
 
When the gauge doesn’t work, does it read empty or full? If I’m not mistaken, if the gauge loses ground it reads full. If it loses excitation, it reads empty. Might want to check all the connections at the terminal strip under the rear seat and make sure none of those are loose.

There is a fuel gauge troubleshooting guide in the service manual for the PA-28. I’d have your mechanic start there.
 
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Assuming this is a factory setup, completely open to the sender will read full. It will go to zero if it’s either losing power to the gauge, or the sender wire is shorting to ground. Given the age of plane and wiring, I’d guess that an old grommet has disintegrated and the sender wire is shorting in the wing somewhere, or right where it passes through the fuselage in to the first rib of the wing. The sender wire will run from the back of the gauge to a terminal strip under the rear seat on the left side, and from there out to the wing. I’d test for a short on the sender wire, though if it’s intermittent, could be hard to catch. If you have the additional inspection panels in the wing, should be fairly easy to speculatively run a new wire out to the sender as well.
 
Could the float on the sender arm become water- (or in this case, fuel-) logged and sink over time? If it has been replaced before, with a non-standard part?

-Skip
 
Could the float on the sender arm become water- (or in this case, fuel-) logged and sink over time? If it has been replaced before, with a non-standard part?

-Skip
A new sender comes with a new float.
 
Looking at the wiring diagram for that vintage of PA-28 is instructive.

1717865172949.png

The power goes first to the left gauge, then via a jumper wire to the right gauge, so unless someone has moved the power wire to the right gauge and the jumper is loose or failing, that isn't likely the problem. But, the airplane is 55 years old, too, lots of time for stuff to get messed up.

The senders are simple rheostats, so unless the gauges read full when the master is turned off, which would be unusual indeed, their resistance will be at minimum when full, and at max when empty.

There were old cars that had fuel gauges that went to full when the ignition was turned off, but they did not use rheostats. They used a thermal device that made and broke connection in the sender, and there was a cam that flexed a bimetal strip that spent more time closed at empty than it did at full, driving the gauge down. The gauge itself was a thermal device, with a bimetal strip that curved when more current, or more frequent current, warmed it up. My '51 International pickup had this setup. Never seen it in any airplane. Cessna has used the rheostat affair for a very long time, ever since they abandoned direct-reading mechanical gauges in the wing roots. 1950s?

A shorted sender wire would drive the gauge to full.
1717865683644.png

The wire from the left gauge to the terminal strip is Q4A, and the wire from the strip to the sender is Q4B. The terminal strip connections look like this:
1717865798198.png
Q4A and Q4B are on terminals 3 and 4. There is probably a jumper bar across those two, and it might be loose or rotten or something.


What do I think is the real problem? Not looking at the wiring diagrams, and a reluctance to pull the interior out to get at the entire circuit. There is also the possibility of a loose sender wire at the back of the gauge, so has anyone been under the panel to have a look? The gauge itself might also be failing internally. It's old enough to retire.

Later 140s were wired like this at the terminal strip, perhaps to eliminate the jumper bar:

1717866207320.png
 
I'll make my "not an a&p" statement, and then say this - if your mechanic temporarily wires the left gauge to the right sender and the right gauge to the left sender, you should be able to figure out if the problem stays with the gauge or the sender. Label it, don't leave it that way, but they're only a few inches apart should be easy to do. My bet is the gauge, because the wires are tiny in there, and old, and a PA-28 isn't a low vibration environment.
 
This is probably not something you are interested in doing, but I was facing a similar problem but worse. This is what I did.

My original1964 OEM engine instrument cluster failed. The only instrument that worked was the ammeter. The tach, manifold pressure, and ET were separate instruments and were not affected. I was looking at over $2500 in parts to get back to the old style instruments working, so I bit the bullet and installed a CGR30P engine analyzer instrument group. I reused the old swing arm style fuel tank level sensors instead of installing new solid state sensors, but I can change up at a later date if necessary. After a brief period of adjustment getting used to the new system I am very happy with the results.

For your carburerated Cherokee 140 this may be overkill. But I wouldn’t rule out looking into it. You might not need the full blown system that I installed. You might not need individual cylinder ETs and CHTs, and you may not need GPH fuel flow, but I strongly recommend having it especially if you want to lean precisely either ROP or LOP, or keep better awareness of how much fuel you have remaining in the tanks. I use mine all the time.

I have an IO-360 rated at 200 HP. When leaned to LOP the engine makes about 15 HP per GPH. That means LOP at 8 GPH x 15 = 120 HP and 120 / 200 = 0.6 or 60% rated power. The same power ROP in the POH lists 8.9 GPH, or about 11% more. At 60% power or less the mixture can be set anywhere without harming the engine. I can also run LOP up to 75% power so long as the engine runs smoothly and CHTs stay cool.

You could be doing the same thing with your Cherokee provided the engine will run smooth at LOP mixtures. Your O-320 is rated either 150 HP or 160 HP depending on weather or not it was upgraded to 160 HP at the last overhaul. The PA-28-140 POH says 60% power will produce 110 MPH at 2000 ft altitude. While flying that speed or slower, ease back the mixture until the engine loses some power and see if it continues to run smoothly. If it does then you can run LOP safely and upgrading to an engine monitor would be worthwhile. Add up all the fuel you use and figure out if using 10% less would pay for the upgrade in less than 2 years. If it does then it is a no-brainer, and your tank gauges would now read right!!
 
I'll make my "not an a&p" statement, and then say this - if your mechanic temporarily wires the left gauge to the right sender and the right gauge to the left sender, you should be able to figure out if the problem stays with the gauge or the sender. Label it, don't leave it that way, but they're only a few inches apart should be easy to do. My bet is the gauge, because the wires are tiny in there, and old, and a PA-28 isn't a low vibration environment.
Lol, Two things here; 1 you could be right, but so could the others here, who knows ? without being right there in person pretty hard to do anything else but guess. 2 He said he sent the gage and sender out (or were they replaced, I don't remember) I think he only dealt with the right side. As i posted above its possible at some previous date someone wired them opposite (left to rt gage and visa versa) as you said very close together, this is also a guess, and is seldom thought of and very easy to mis, tunnel vision. most people (may be all) would assume that wiring is correct and not even think of it. Also, from the factory, the wires are already labeled, just need the schematics in the back section of the maintenance manual. I like these issues on the forum because it causes us to think and it may help out people. One possible negative from the forums is for the mech, who has his head under the instrument panel, is he may be annoyed by the owner bothering him with things that he is already aware of. I once was commissioned to finish an annual that was started and then the owner died before he put the plane back together. The plane had been dormant in this condition in a hangar for some time. The plan was to get it annualed then fly it to its new home, 45 minutes away for upgrades. Well from checking lifters, to cylinder removal and then eventually engine removal for overhaul. The owner was new to small airplane world and was all over the place with how to handle his new (to him) airplane. To start with i wanted to check things out and get it airworthy and fire up the engine, test fly. after his consulting several forums we were all over the place! what would have taken a couple of weeks ended up a year (or more) due to some issues, just one was the shipping company losing a couple of parts (fuel servo, starter). i got tired and backed out he went thru three more mechanics before it got done. The forums can be great additional guidance! but you have to be logical and if you have a mechanic on site it's usually best that he be the one in the driver seat. just my humble opinion.
 
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Lol, Two things here; 1 you could be right, but so could the others here, who knows ? without being right there in person pretty hard to do anything else but guess. 2 He said he sent the gage and sender out (or were they replaced, I don't remember) I think he only dealt with the right side. As i posted above its possible at some previous date someone wired them opposite (left to rt gage and visa versa) as you said very close together, this is also a guess, and is seldom thought of and very easy to mis, tunnel vision. most people (may be all) would assume that wiring is correct and not even think of it. Also, from the factory, the wires are already labeled, just need the schematics in the back section of the maintenance manual. I like these issues on the forum because it causes us to think and it may help out people. One possible negative from the forums is for the mech, who has his head under the instrument panel, is he may be annoyed by the owner bothering him with things that he is already aware of. I once was commissioned to finish an annual that was started and then the owner died before he put the plane back together. The plane had been dormant in this condition in a hangar for some time. The plan was to get it annualed then fly it to its new home, 45 minutes away for upgrades. Well from checking lifters, to cylinder removal and then eventually engine removal for overhaul. The owner was new to small airplane world and was all over the place with how to handle his new (to him) airplane. To start with i wanted to check things out and get it airworthy and fire up the engine, test fly. after his consulting several forums we were all over the place! what would have taken a couple of weeks ended up a year (or more) due to some issues, just one was the shipping company losing a couple of parts (fuel servo, starter). i got tired and backed out he went thru three more mechanics before it got done. The forums can be great additional guidance! but you have to be logical and if you have a mechanic on site it's usually best that he be the one in the driver seat. just my humble opinion.
 
The forums can be great additional guidance! but you have to be logical and if you have a mechanic on site it's usually best that he be the one in the driver seat. just my humble opinion.
Yes, but not always. If the mechanic has been fighting with the problem during several visits, and still can't fix it, it's time for some other eyeballs or another mechanic's suggestions.

Electricity is easily the most lacking skill among mechanics. Too many just have no understanding of it. Some can't even read the wiring diagrams.
 
Yes, but not always. If the mechanic has been fighting with the problem during several visits, and still can't fix it, it's time for some other eyeballs or another mechanic's suggestions.
True. But I’ve found most competent mechanics will seek out those other suggestions when needed. And not that an engaged owner looking for input as well is bad either. However, the one thing we rarely see with these type posts is the mechanic’s side of the story.

Having been the mechanic on both sides of the fence with “informative” forum posts, it can be hard at times to discern the context of the post to mean the mechanic is struggling with the solution to the issue or it’s the owner who is struggling with the solution.

Regardless, I believe its the art of troubleshooting that is lacking and gone to the wayside on both the owner and mechanics sides. On the mechanics side, because the industry is moving to digital trouble-trees and LRUs, and on the owner side because it takes more labor to troubleshoot vs replace parts.
 
Yes, but not always. If the mechanic has been fighting with the problem during several visits, and still can't fix it, it's time for some other eyeballs or another mechanic's suggestions.

Electricity is easily the most lacking skill among mechanics. Too many just have no understanding of it. Some can't even read the wiring diagrams.
Yes, but not always. If the mechanic has been fighting with the problem during several visits, and still can't fix it, it's time for some other eyeballs or another mechanic's suggestions.

Electricity is easily the most lacking skill among mechanics. Too many just have no understanding of it. Some can't even read the wiring diagrams.
This is probably a double post (by accident) regarding your statement "electricity is easily the most lacking skill among mechanics" i have to disagree for two reasons, it is extensively taught in A&P programs and also in a negative ground 14 volt system such as most of light trainers of the most usual flavor (piper, cessna) it is very rudimentary so most mechs should have no problems understanding these systems. as far as reading the diagrams, fortunately piper and cessna diagrams are very simple to read, again in school extensively taught. As you may know there are mechanics and there are mechanics, just like there are pilots and there are pilots. So i think your assumptions may be true in some limited cases but for the most part are unfounded. Granted some gremlins can baffle, but believe me the forum is not the first place to go the manufactures have tech people to talk tech to tech.
True. But I’ve found most competent mechanics will seek out those other suggestions when needed. And not that an engaged owner looking for input as well is bad either. However, the one thing we rarely see with these type posts is the mechanic’s side of the story.

Having been the mechanic on both sides of the fence with “informative” forum posts, it can be hard at times to discern the context of the post to mean the mechanic is struggling with the solution to the issue or it’s the owner who is struggling with the solution.

Regardless, I believe its the art of troubleshooting that is lacking and gone to the wayside on both the owner and mechanics sides. On the mechanics side, because the industry is moving to digital trouble-trees and LRUs, and on the owner side because it takes more labor to troubleshoot vs replace parts.
Agreed, Mr Bell. I once worked for a company that had approx 200 techs, only a few had an A&P, in fact having an a&P really didn't count much there, the company wanted things done there way, no trouble shooting just replace LRUs and an assortment of other internal parts (levers, links, micro sw etc) good or bad, it was all about turn time. one time a unit failed final test three times the poor fellow that put the thing together was looking bad. I was working at night, not a lot going on and had some time so i did trouble shoot that unit, ran the test without hooking up the unit to the test board, and the results were it failed again! without the unit being involved, turned out it was the test board at fault. And we wonder why an airline ticket cost so much.
 
Dan Thomas has the necessary facts along with the diagram. I suspect his shop would have found and fixed this the first time around.

"The senders are simple rheostats, so unless the gauges read full when the master is turned off, which would be unusual indeed,
their resistance will be at minimum when full, and at max when empty."

Open circuit is empty, grounded is full. You are looking for an open circuit.

He points out that a lose or corroded connection is likely, and the terminal strip where it is most likely to exist.

Somewhere, you have a broken wire or loose connection. Moving things around to replace the meter or sender temporarily 'fixes' it temporarily, so it must be nearly touching. Find that terminal strip, and apply a ground, the guage should then read full, if not, work from there to the guage for a broken wire. If the guage reads full with the jumper, work toward the tank to find the broken wire.

Remember, this has self fixed before, and if it starts working without finding the fault, get serious about tugging wires in the circuit until the zero returns, it is a bad wire that fails with simple vibration, so tugging should also cause failure.
 
Lol, Two things here; 1 you could be right, but so could the others here, who knows ? without being right there in person pretty hard to do anything else but guess. 2 He said he sent the gage and sender out (or were they replaced, I don't remember) I think he only dealt with the right side. As i posted above its possible at some previous date someone wired them opposite (left to rt gage and visa versa) as you said very close together, this is also a guess, and is seldom thought of and very easy to mis, tunnel vision. most people (may be all) would assume that wiring is correct and not even think of it. Also, from the factory, the wires are already labeled, just need the schematics in the back section of the maintenance manual. I like these issues on the forum because it causes us to think and it may help out people. One possible negative from the forums is for the mech, who has his head under the instrument panel, is he may be annoyed by the owner bothering him with things that he is already aware of. I once was commissioned to finish an annual that was started and then the owner died before he put the plane back together. The plane had been dormant in this condition in a hangar for some time. The plan was to get it annualed then fly it to its new home, 45 minutes away for upgrades. Well from checking lifters, to cylinder removal and then eventually engine removal for overhaul. The owner was new to small airplane world and was all over the place with how to handle his new (to him) airplane. To start with i wanted to check things out and get it airworthy and fire up the engine, test fly. after his consulting several forums we were all over the place! what would have taken a couple of weeks ended up a year (or more) due to some issues, just one was the shipping company losing a couple of parts (fuel servo, starter). i got tired and backed out he went thru three more mechanics before it got done. The forums can be great additional guidance! but you have to be logical and if you have a mechanic on site it's usually best that he be the one in the driver seat. just my humble opinion.
Kinda skimmed through that, sorry, but two things: 1) Someone posts looking for advice on troubleshooting a problem that their mechanic hasn't been able to fix, I'm not going to be too concerned about their relationship. 2) Sounded to me like "shoot till you win" troubleshooting. Maybe not. I don't work on airplanes, but I've been in the tech field for a long time, and have run into more than a few people that are more than happy to guess with other people's money rather than use some actual troubleshooting skills. No idea if that's the case here, I'm just SGOI.
 
Assuming this is a factory setup, completely open to the sender will read full. It will go to zero if it’s either losing power to the gauge, or the sender wire is shorting to ground.

A shorted sender wire would drive the gauge to full.

Just wanted to clear up my post from earlier. I am currently working on a major project of a ‘63 180 and for some reason thought I had read this was a ‘65 140, which would use the same system. On the early PA-28’s using the AC setup, they do read full when open (or high resistance) and zero when shorted to ground (low resistance). The later Stewart Warner setup does the opposite. So assuming this is a ‘69 and not a ‘65 as I had misread, I believe that would have the Stewart Warner and work the opposite of what I originally posted.
 
Rip everything out and go CiES?

@Timbeck2
Absolutely! Since I went with an EI engine monitor I took out all the old gauges too and replaced it with a strip of leather that matches the interior. I love my Cies senders, very accurate to the 10th of a gallon
 
Well in his defense, my Cherokee was built in October 1969. The serial number says it’s a 1970 but all the paperwork says it’s a 69
 
Wait... You own a Cherokee and you're not sure what model or year it is??? You believe it's a 1969 Cherokee 140?
Haha. You got me on this one. I figure it’s anywhere from a 1965 to 1975. Does it matter? J/K. It is indeed a 1969. No idea why I typed I believe.
 
Maybe you should stop and buy fuel.
Hmmm…. You may have a good point. I keep filling the right tank and am waiting for it to cross feed. Seems like it’s going very slow to none at all
 
Hmmm…. You may have a good point. I keep filling the right tank and am waiting for it to cross feed. Seems like it’s going very slow to none at all
You have no "Both" position on the selector, right? How then is the fuel going to crossfeed between the tanks?
 
Simple circuit, simple trouble shooting.

1) Power at gauge - 12 volts
2) Power at sender - 12 volts
3) Ground at sender - 0 ohms from sender terminal to aircraft ground

If you have 1 but not 2, then the gauge is broken or the wire is disconnected between the two.

If you have 2, then check 3. If they all check out, the sender is bad.
 
Simple circuit, simple trouble shooting.

1) Power at gauge - 12 volts
2) Power at sender - 12 volts
3) Ground at sender - 0 ohms from sender terminal to aircraft ground

If you have 1 but not 2, then the gauge is broken or the wire is disconnected between the two.

If you have 2, then check 3. If they all check out, the sender is bad.
You shouldn't expect to see 12 volts at the sender. This is what the system looks like, electrically:

1718209599757.png

The gauge has two electromagnets in it. One pulls the needle up, and is controlled by the fuel sender rheostat. The other pulls the needle down, and is controlled by a fixed-resistance ballast resistor, there on the left, that is grounded at its lower end. Doing it this way makes the needle stay where it should when the system voltage fluctuates between battery voltage and charging voltage. Voltage fluctuations were a bigger problem in the days of generators, which produced nothing below about 1200 engine RPM in aircraft applications.

The rheostat controls the current flow through the electromagnet that pulls the needle up. When the tank is full, the resistance is at minimum, around 30 ohms, and current flow is at max and the needle goes to Full. When the tank is about empty, the resistance goes to about 160 ohms and the needle is pulled down by the other electromagnet as the rheostat's magnet gets really weak, and the gauge goes to Empty.

Since there is that pull-up electromagnet is between the power source and the rheostat, one will never see a full system voltage at the rheostat (sender), and whatever voltage you see will vary depending on float position. When the float is up (tank full), the rheostat's terminal is near ground potential, and you'd see nearly nothing on the voltmeter.

I've had fuel gauges apart. The coils in them consist of many turns of extremely fine copper wire, like hair, almost. Very little current flow there.
 
Hmm. Thanks.

Mooney senders range from 0 - 30 ohms over their range. The larger tank versions have dual senders wired in series.
 
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