Piper Cherokee 160 and 4 adults

Shane C

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Pielut
Hey guys!

I'm trying to find a decent answer, but I can't find it anywhere. I'm trying to decide if I should purchase this 1961 PA28 160 Cherokee to occasionally fly 4 adults. (about 700lb payload including baggage)

I will typically be flying alone, or with my wife and young children, but occasionally I'd like to take my buddy and his wife on a double date from KUAO to KSEA. It's about 150nm and the plane has 50 gal tanks. Assuming a cool day and low DA, with no obstacles and long runways, does this sound like a feasible scenario? Obviously I would do all the proper calculations before considering such a thing. I just want a general sense from experienced pilots on whether or not this plane has the performance available to do such a thing once in a great while. I will not be doing trips like these on hot days or to high altitude airports.

Thanks fellas!
 
Will be tight but if the W&B calculation and takeoff data works out then go for it.
 
I would suggest that you compare the W&B for that aircraft with a 180 or an Archer. If you plan on four adults on any type of a regular basis, the 180 might be a better fit. YMMV.
 
Have you flown a Cherokee 180 before? The 140 I flew had a microscopic back seat. Barely okay for two teenage girls, if the 180 is similar your friend and his wife may hate you before you ever have dinner in Seattle. If the backseat is roomy enough and the weight and balance works it could be a great option though. Seems like pipers go for a bit less than cessnas so you could end up with a real nice setup without having to sell a child.
 
Have you flown a Cherokee 180 before? The 140 I flew had a microscopic back seat. Barely okay for two teenage girls, if the 180 is similar your friend and his wife may hate you before you ever have dinner in Seattle. If the backseat is roomy enough and the weight and balance works it could be a great option though. Seems like pipers go for a bit less than cessnas so you could end up with a real nice setup without having to sell a child.
I haven't flown the 180, but I have flown the 140. The 140 I flew didn't have the cargo door though. This 160 does, and I believe it has a little extra leg room, but I could be wrong.

I can't seem to find that much info on the PA28 160 Cherokee. I can only find stuff on the 140 with the upgraded engine. Frustrating!
 
I've done 4 adult trips in the back seat of a Cherokee 180. It was ok, not great. I believe the back seat on the 160 Cherokee is a bit smaller. I've done 4 adult trips of similar distance in a C model Mooney. It was almost comical how tight it was in the back seat. Only upside for those trips is the faster cruise speed meant the flights were shorter.

Most 4 place GA aircraft are capable of short flights with 4 adults. Very few of them are able to do it with a level of comfort that approaches doing the same trip in the back seat of a car.
 
You really need to sit in the back, with the front seats positioned where they would normally be. The back seat legroom is virtually nonexistent if the front seaters are of above average (for 1960) height. I seem to remember, with me seated up front, the front of the back seats touched the front seatbacks. In other words, actually zero legroom.
 
I've done 4 adult trips in the back seat of a Cherokee 180. It was ok, not great. I believe the back seat on the 160 Cherokee is a bit smaller. I've done 4 adult trips of similar distance in a C model Mooney. It was almost comical how tight it was in the back seat. Only upside for those trips is the faster cruise speed meant the flights were shorter.

Most 4 place GA aircraft are capable of short flights with 4 adults. Very few of them are able to do it with a level of comfort that approaches doing the same trip in the back seat of a car.

When you say short flights... how short we talkin! Traffic pattern short, or 150nm trip like the one I wanna take =D
 
You really need to sit in the back, with the front seats positioned where they would normally be. The back seat legroom is virtually nonexistent if the front seaters are of above average (for 1960) height. I seem to remember, with me seated up front, the front of the back seats touched the front seatbacks. In other words, actually zero legroom.
That's a great idea. I think I just have to make the drive up there to check this thing out. I'm kinda tall, so the leg room behind me might in fact be non existent.
 
I seem to recall, but @Pilawt can confirm, that the PA28-160 has less rear leg space than the PA28-161 (Warrior).
 
I can confirm the earlier Cherokees had minimal legroom in the back seat. I have a 1969 Cherokee 235C... I can handle four "full sized" adults and full fuel, but those same adults that have to sit in the back seat damn well better like each other, and their knees, because they will be knees up and shoulder to shoulder for the duration of the flight.

If I knew then (1998) what I know now, I would have held out for a '73 or newer Cherokee 235... Piper added an additional 5", all of which went to the back seat area. But I have way too much time and money invested in this mistress to even think of getting a new one just for back seat room.

To the OP, really, look at a 180 or an Archer if you are considering four adults as a regular mission parameter. You will be happier in the long run.
 
I seem to recall, but @Pilawt can confirm, that the PA28-160 has less rear leg space than the PA28-161 (Warrior).
True. The PA-28-160 (1961-67) had the short Cherokee fuselage; Warriors, which first appeared for the 1974 model year, all have the long fuselage. Almost all of the difference in the interior is in rear-seat legroom.
 
The first airplane I purchased was a 1961 Cherokee 160. It had a 980 lb useful load, 50 gal fuel, 2200 lb gross (iirc). I am 6'4", about 220 lbs at the time. I flew it out of the same 4000 ASL northern Rockies airport I'm based at now. Made numerous short cross country trips (~2 hrs each way) with three adults and round trip fuel (never in the dead of summer!). Also made two long round trips to Oshkosh in it; two adults, lots of camping gear and full fuel on every takeoff.

Never had 4 in the plane because the LF seatback was right up against the rear seat, to give me the needed legroom, so that rendered the left side of the rear seat as baggage use only.
 
I can confirm the earlier Cherokees had minimal legroom in the back seat. I have a 1969 Cherokee 235C... I can handle four "full sized" adults and full fuel, but those same adults that have to sit in the back seat damn well better like each other, and their knees, because they will be knees up and shoulder to shoulder for the duration of the flight.

If I knew then (1998) what I know now, I would have held out for a '73 or newer Cherokee 235... Piper added an additional 5", all of which went to the back seat area. But I have way too much time and money invested in this mistress to even think of getting a new one just for back seat room.

To the OP, really, look at a 180 or an Archer if you are considering four adults as a regular mission parameter. You will be happier in the long run.
I was also considering a Comanche 260, what are your thoughts on that aircraft?
 
The first airplane I purchased was a 1961 Cherokee 160. It had a 980 lb useful load, 50 gal fuel, 2200 lb gross (iirc). I am 6'4", about 220 lbs at the time. I flew it out of the same 4000 ASL northern Rockies airport I'm based at now. Made numerous short cross country trips (~2 hrs each way) with three adults and round trip fuel (never in the dead of summer!). Also made two long round trips to Oshkosh in it; two adults, lots of camping gear and full fuel on every takeoff.

Never had 4 in the plane because the LF seatback was right up against the rear seat, to give me the needed legroom, so that rendered the left side of the rear seat as baggage use only.
Your situation sounds pretty damn close to mine! I'm about 220, but only 6'1". That gives me a little comfort, but I would probably still have an issue with a 5'5" 115 lb wife behind me... Hmm...
 
Key question - how often would you really have 4 adults in it? If 1 or 2 times a year, then just rent a 180 or such for the need.
 
I was also considering a Comanche 260, what are your thoughts on that aircraft?

Shane, respectfully, if you are considering both a Cherokee 160 and a Comanche 260, I would spend a fair amount of time defining your mission before you look at anything. These two aircraft are apples and oranges different. Define your mission, then look for a plane. Lots of folks on here have a lot of Piper hours, but only you can answer what you really need and want from a plane... once that is well defined our advice may be useful.
 
Key question - how often would you really have 4 adults in it? If 1 or 2 times a year, then just rent a 180 or such for the need.
Not too often. I would mainly be flying myself and/or 1 adult passenger.
 
Shane, respectfully, if you are considering both a Cherokee 160 and a Comanche 260, I would spend a fair amount of time defining your mission before you look at anything. These two aircraft are apples and oranges different. Define your mission, then look for a plane. Lots of folks on here have a lot of Piper hours, but only you can answer what you really need and want from a plane... once that is well defined our advice may be useful.
I think these 4 adults trips would be pretty far and few between. My main purpose is to fly myself and my spouse around on cool ass dates! Haha

I really appreciate your advice good sir, and everyone else's advice for that matter!

So it sounds like this might be a good option for me then. I REALLY want this plane. She's a beauty.
 
A Cherokee 160 is a nice simple two-person ride and a could be a nice first plane... if it is in decent shape. Do your homework, make sure it checks out (aka an annual from someone you trust as a "pre-buy"), then go fly. If this is your first plane, make sure you know what you are getting into... not trying to dissuade you at all, just talk to people who have owned an aircraft or two so you have an idea what to expect.
 
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A Cherokee 160 is a nice simple two-person ride and a could be a nice first plane... if it is in decent shape. Do your homework, make sure it checks out (aka an annual from someone you trust as a "pre-buy"), then go fly. If this is your first plane, make sure you know what you are getting into... not trying to dissuade you at all, just talk to people who have owned an aircraft or two so you have an idea what to expect.
Oh no, I appreciate the advice and wholeheartedly believe I should do all my homework. I'll admit, I feel like a 12 year old boy about to buy his first awesome bicycle, and wanna just buy it sight unseen, but I know better. Especially when the lives of others are in my hands. No way Jose.

Here are the deets, maybe you guys can tell me what you think? He's asking $25k.

January 29, 2020 Compression Test: #1 72psi #2 77psi #3 76psi #4 78psi
Annual good through January 31, 2021.
STOL Kit
Stratus ADS-B Transponder ESG Kit ADS-B Out + in puck for in cockpit EFB
Email me for .pdf copy of log books if interested
Hard landing in the past, before 1988. Details in Log book entry January 15, 2010 (The first annual after my purchase) No other accident history.
All AD’s complied with.
 
Oh no, I appreciate the advice and wholeheartedly believe I should do all my homework. I'll admit, I feel like a 12 year old boy about to buy his first awesome bicycle, and wanna just buy it sight unseen, but I know better. Especially when the lives of others are in my hands. No way Jose.

Here are the deets, maybe you guys can tell me what you think? He's asking $25k.

January 29, 2020 Compression Test: #1 72psi #2 77psi #3 76psi #4 78psi
Annual good through January 31, 2021.
STOL Kit
Stratus ADS-B Transponder ESG Kit ADS-B Out + in puck for in cockpit EFB
Email me for .pdf copy of log books if interested
Hard landing in the past, before 1988. Details in Log book entry January 15, 2010 (The first annual after my purchase) No other accident history.
All AD’s complied with.

Link to ad?
Aircraft total time?
TSMOH? Year of OH? By whom?
Avionics?
Aircraft exterior and interior condition?

Bottom line, pretty much unable to intelligently comment without more info. The logbook entry for the hard landing would be interesting, but not a concern if properly repaired.
 
Link to ad?
Aircraft total time?
TSMOH? Year of OH? By whom?
Avionics?
Aircraft exterior and interior condition?

Bottom line, pretty much unable to intelligently comment without more info. The logbook entry for the hard landing would be interesting, but not a concern if properly repaired.
Oops I forgot to include the second half of the ad! Interior is clean and nice, looks like pretty old avionics I'm not allowed to provide a link I guess, so this is all I got!


Horsepower: 160
Gross Weight: 2200 lbs
Empty Weight: 1339.83 lbs
Useful Load
Fuel Capacity: 50 gal
Max baggage: 125lbs
Engine Lycoming O-320-B2B
Tach 2707.1
ENG SMOH 0989.23
ACTT 4088.95

upload_2020-5-5_14-52-35.png

upload_2020-5-5_14-53-23.png
 
If you can get one of the earlier Warriors with the weight STC, you are looking at a nearly 1000 pound UL. Of course, whether it is intelligent to fly a 160 HP plane so heavy is another thing, even if you are legal.

You're much better with a 180/Archer. Even better, a Grumman Tiger.
 
Oops I forgot to include the second half of the ad! Interior is clean and nice, looks like pretty old avionics I'm not allowed to provide a link I guess, so this is all I got!


Horsepower: 160
Gross Weight: 2200 lbs
Empty Weight: 1339.83 lbs
Useful Load
Fuel Capacity: 50 gal
Max baggage: 125lbs
Engine Lycoming O-320-B2B
Tach 2707.1
ENG SMOH 0989.23
ACTT 4088.95

View attachment 85521

View attachment 85522
Hey, youre not too far from me at all if your considering driving up to see this plane. I just saw it show up on the local ads a few days ago and its at an airport 30 minutes from my house. Engine appears to have good time as well, I wonder if its been sitting a while or not.
 
So..... why THIS plane. What is it that draws you in?

If it was me, I would want to know how often it has been flying, and when the engine overhaul was done. How many more hours and years do you expect to be able to run that engine? And if it doesn’t get there, is paying for an overhaul an issue ($$$$$)? Flightaware only shows one flight this year..... has the aircraft been sitting a lot for the last few years?

Exterior looks nice, but the panel/avionics is decidedly old school. $$$$$ to do something there. I would be looking at the panel, trying to guestimate what it will need to make me happy.

There are a lot of nice aircraft on the market... why THIS plane?

Not trying to talk you out of it as much as trying to talk you through the decision process.
 
My opinion is not to push the limits of the plane, as they assume calm conditions with no downdrafts and loss of engine power due to age. You will be fine most of the time. I recommend you consider renting a true 4 seater for the few times you need it.
 
Shane, respectfully, if you are considering both a Cherokee 160 and a Comanche 260, I would spend a fair amount of time defining your mission before you look at anything. These two aircraft are apples and oranges different. Define your mission, then look for a plane. Lots of folks on here have a lot of Piper hours, but only you can answer what you really need and want from a plane... once that is well defined our advice may be useful.

Agree. These planes are so different they can’t really be compared, and OP should refine their wants and needs before considering further.
 
My 160 has a gross wt of 2150#. Useful load is 756. 4 FAA adults would leave room for about 12 gal of fuel. My 65# Lab fills up the back seat.
 
The FBO I learned to fly at was a very active Piper dealer and always had older PA-28s of various types in rental while they were listed for sale. So I got to fly a lot of different PA-28s.

The PA-28-140 and 150 are two seat aircraft. Some just happen to have rear seats. Think if it like you would a child seat in the back of a C-150 or C-152, except ok for 2 kids - small ones.

The PA-28-160 B and C have 2200 pound gross weights and from the factory had around 1210 pound empty weights so 980 pounds useful load (at best - they all get fatter with age), but small back seats.

The PA-28-151 Warrior had a more efficient semi tapered wing and a longer cabin that made it an actual 4 seat aircraft. Gross weight was 2325 with empty weights around 1335 pounds for a useful load in the 990 pound range. With 294 pounds of fuel with full tanks, it had about 700 pound left for people. If I had four adults on board and no baggage, or three and a lot of baggage, I just filled it to the tabs (36 gallons IIRC) and kept another 100 pounds or so available for people and baggage. However, even with the same loads on board and similar useful loads, I always felt the Warrior flew better than a Cherokee 160 even with 10 less horsepower.

The PA-28-161 just added 10 more horsepower with the same weights and useful load, so it was a win-win, but not so much that I'd turn down a good 151 for a less good similarly priced 161. Both are super easy to fly and with a wing leveler long flights are very low workload.

The PA-28-180 B and C had a 2400 pound gross weight and an empty weight only about 20 pounds heavier than the 160, so around 1170 pounds useful load - but still the small back seats.

The PA-28-180 D E and F gained weight with empty weights around 1310 pounds so the useful loads went down to around 1090 pounds, and still the small back seat.

The PA-28-180 Challenger and Archer had 2450 pound gross weights and 1400 pound empty weights for a useful load around 1050 pounds.

The PA-28-181 Archer II had the semi- tapered wing and an gross weight increase to 2550 pounds and an empty weights around 1420, with a useful load of around 1130 pounds. That's four 200 pound adults, with only 10 pounds of baggage each, with full fuel, cruising at 125 kts. Or fill it to the tabs and everyone gets 35 pounds of baggage.

The PA-28-235 Charger (IIRC) had a shorter cabin and the hershey bar wing, the PA-28-235 Pathfinder had a longer cabin and a hershey bar wing and the PA-28-236 Dakota had the longer cabin and the semi-tapered wing. All three had a 3000 pound gross weight and useful loads in the 1400-1500 pound range.

If I were in the market for a do everything aircraft that was still reasonably cheap to maintain, I'd seriously consider a Dakota. It'll haul four 200 pound adults, each with 40 pounds of baggage and full fuel and do it with a cruise speed of around 140 kts.

If I wanted something a little less expensive to fly and maintain, but still needed to carry four adults on a regular basis, I'd get and Archer.

-----

You also asked about the 260 Comanche. I don't have much Comanche time, but they impressed me as very nice, efficient aircraft to fly.

A 180 Comanche will have a 2550 pound gross weight, about a 1000 pounds of useful load and cruise at about 140 kts.

The 250 Comanche has a 2800 pound gross weight and an 1100 pound useful load and cruises at about 157 kts.

The 260 Comanche has a 2900 pound gross weight. The 260B GW increases to 3100 and the C increases to 3200. Useful loads increase from around 1175 to 1375 to 1425 pounds.

The 180 Comanche will haul about 100 pounds less than an Archer, but haul it 25 kts faster, in exchange for the increased maintenance and insurance costs of the CS prop and retracts. It'll also fly as fast as the PA-28-235 variants, burning less fuel.

The 250 Comanche matches the Archer's useful load and is 30 kts faster, and it's a good 10-12 kts faster than a PA-28-235, but with less useful load.

The 260 B and 260C Comanche are probably the sweet spot with the C having PA-28-235 useful load and a 160 kt cruise speed. The B is a just a couple kts slower with 50 pounds less useful load.

Subjectively, IMHO, the Comanche flies a lot different than a PA-28. It feels like a much heavier aircraft on approach, despite similar gross weights and stall speeds to the PA-28-235. It might be an artifact of my limited time in the Comanche, but it struck me as being more demanding to fly and one where you needed to be on your game and fly it regularly to stay safe. Much like the Bonanza, and I think the insurance rates will probably reflect that. On the other hand it had great feel in the air - very Cadillac like.
 
I was also considering a Comanche 260, what are your thoughts on that aircraft?

These are two completely different airplanes when it comes to capability. The Comanche is serious, fast, long distance cross country airplane. The Comanche might arguably be the finest piston single engine "go places far away" airplane Piper ever made, prior to the Malibu.

The Cherokee is rugged, simple, economical, but not that fast.

I took my Cherokee to Oshkosh twice. 2400 nm round trip. You KNOW you've been on a cross country when you fly a Cherokee 160 that far. Twice was enough. I'd never do that again. In a Comanche 260 that trip is well within the comfort zone.

As others have said, decide what you plan to do. Both can be wonderful, fun airplanes, but not necessarily for the same purpose.
 
If you aren’t certain what your mission is, a PA-28 will help you define it. You will learn a lot about owning a plane, traveling by air, and what performance adjustments you would get the most benefit out of.
 
The plane should be able to handle that weight just fine. Echoing others, comfort is a bigger factor. A Warrior or Challenger/Archer is a better fit for carrying 4 people.

Also as others mentioned, a Cherokee 160 and a Comanche 260 are quite in different market segments. It's like comparing a Prius to a 4x4.
 
The plane should be able to handle that weight just fine. Echoing others, comfort is a bigger factor. A Warrior or Challenger/Archer is a better fit for carrying 4 people.

Also as others mentioned, a Cherokee 160 and a Comanche 260 are quite in different market segments. It's like comparing a Prius to a 4x4.

Or in 1960's terms... a base Nova to a Chevelle SS.
 
Hey, youre not too far from me at all if your considering driving up to see this plane. I just saw it show up on the local ads a few days ago and its at an airport 30 minutes from my house. Engine appears to have good time as well, I wonder if its been sitting a while or not.
Yeah I definitely plan on checking it out in the next week or two. He's thinking on my offer, so hopefully he'll accept! Know any good A&Ps out there??
 
So..... why THIS plane. What is it that draws you in?

If it was me, I would want to know how often it has been flying, and when the engine overhaul was done. How many more hours and years do you expect to be able to run that engine? And if it doesn’t get there, is paying for an overhaul an issue ($$$$$)? Flightaware only shows one flight this year..... has the aircraft been sitting a lot for the last few years?

Exterior looks nice, but the panel/avionics is decidedly old school. $$$$$ to do something there. I would be looking at the panel, trying to guestimate what it will need to make me happy.

There are a lot of nice aircraft on the market... why THIS plane?

Not trying to talk you out of it as much as trying to talk you through the decision process.
Well originally I was looking for a 140, but then I started to realize how underpowered they are.

I've been looking on Craigslist and trade a plane for the last few months, and this one fits my budget at the moment, and has a lot of time left between overhauls. The avionics in this plane are definitely something I'm not the most excited.about, but overall it seems like a solid plane.

I'm buying in cash, and my budget grows about 2k each month, so saving for a nicer plane wouldn't take too long.

Ideally, I'd love a Grumman tiger but they seem hard to come by. There's an AA5 traveler for sale that caught my eye, but its only a 2 seater :/
 
My 160 has a gross wt of 2150#. Useful load is 756. 4 FAA adults would leave room for about 12 gal of fuel. My 65# Lab fills up the back seat.
See, now that paints a good picture for me lol. 4 adults ain't gonna work in this bird! Not for the fun trips anyway. Hmm
 
The FBO I learned to fly at was a very active Piper dealer and always had older PA-28s of various types in rental while they were listed for sale. So I got to fly a lot of different PA-28s.

The PA-28-140 and 150 are two seat aircraft. Some just happen to have rear seats. Think if it like you would a child seat in the back of a C-150 or C-152, except ok for 2 kids - small ones.

The PA-28-160 B and C have 2200 pound gross weights and from the factory had around 1210 pound empty weights so 980 pounds useful load (at best - they all get fatter with age), but small back seats.

The PA-28-151 Warrior had a more efficient semi tapered wing and a longer cabin that made it an actual 4 seat aircraft. Gross weight was 2325 with empty weights around 1335 pounds for a useful load in the 990 pound range. With 294 pounds of fuel with full tanks, it had about 700 pound left for people. If I had four adults on board and no baggage, or three and a lot of baggage, I just filled it to the tabs (36 gallons IIRC) and kept another 100 pounds or so available for people and baggage. However, even with the same loads on board and similar useful loads, I always felt the Warrior flew better than a Cherokee 160 even with 10 less horsepower.

The PA-28-161 just added 10 more horsepower with the same weights and useful load, so it was a win-win, but not so much that I'd turn down a good 151 for a less good similarly priced 161. Both are super easy to fly and with a wing leveler long flights are very low workload.

The PA-28-180 B and C had a 2400 pound gross weight and an empty weight only about 20 pounds heavier than the 160, so around 1170 pounds useful load - but still the small back seats.

The PA-28-180 D E and F gained weight with empty weights around 1310 pounds so the useful loads went down to around 1090 pounds, and still the small back seat.

The PA-28-180 Challenger and Archer had 2450 pound gross weights and 1400 pound empty weights for a useful load around 1050 pounds.

The PA-28-181 Archer II had the semi- tapered wing and an gross weight increase to 2550 pounds and an empty weights around 1420, with a useful load of around 1130 pounds. That's four 200 pound adults, with only 10 pounds of baggage each, with full fuel, cruising at 125 kts. Or fill it to the tabs and everyone gets 35 pounds of baggage.

The PA-28-235 Charger (IIRC) had a shorter cabin and the hershey bar wing, the PA-28-235 Pathfinder had a longer cabin and a hershey bar wing and the PA-28-236 Dakota had the longer cabin and the semi-tapered wing. All three had a 3000 pound gross weight and useful loads in the 1400-1500 pound range.

If I were in the market for a do everything aircraft that was still reasonably cheap to maintain, I'd seriously consider a Dakota. It'll haul four 200 pound adults, each with 40 pounds of baggage and full fuel and do it with a cruise speed of around 140 kts.

If I wanted something a little less expensive to fly and maintain, but still needed to carry four adults on a regular basis, I'd get and Archer.

-----

You also asked about the 260 Comanche. I don't have much Comanche time, but they impressed me as very nice, efficient aircraft to fly.

A 180 Comanche will have a 2550 pound gross weight, about a 1000 pounds of useful load and cruise at about 140 kts.

The 250 Comanche has a 2800 pound gross weight and an 1100 pound useful load and cruises at about 157 kts.

The 260 Comanche has a 2900 pound gross weight. The 260B GW increases to 3100 and the C increases to 3200. Useful loads increase from around 1175 to 1375 to 1425 pounds.

The 180 Comanche will haul about 100 pounds less than an Archer, but haul it 25 kts faster, in exchange for the increased maintenance and insurance costs of the CS prop and retracts. It'll also fly as fast as the PA-28-235 variants, burning less fuel.

The 250 Comanche matches the Archer's useful load and is 30 kts faster, and it's a good 10-12 kts faster than a PA-28-235, but with less useful load.

The 260 B and 260C Comanche are probably the sweet spot with the C having PA-28-235 useful load and a 160 kt cruise speed. The B is a just a couple kts slower with 50 pounds less useful load.

Subjectively, IMHO, the Comanche flies a lot different than a PA-28. It feels like a much heavier aircraft on approach, despite similar gross weights and stall speeds to the PA-28-235. It might be an artifact of my limited time in the Comanche, but it struck me as being more demanding to fly and one where you needed to be on your game and fly it regularly to stay safe. Much like the Bonanza, and I think the insurance rates will probably reflect that. On the other hand it had great feel in the air - very Cadillac like.
Wow! Lots of valuable info, thank you good sir!

Well maybe I need to broaden the scope of my search. I only know of Tradeaplane and Craigslist. Are there any other good used aircraft sites I can browse? The other ones I've found don't have much.
 
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