Pilotage and Dead Reckoning

[poadeleted21]

Flame suit on.

I almost never go anywhere without the GPS on.

I almost never used a GPS when I was out in Montana. Not really a lot to worry about over there. I've gone through Seattle Class B on pilotage and DR. Over here with multiple R- spaces and nothing but flat land, I always turn it on unless I'm just farting around within 30 miles or so of the home drome. I have a few airports I hit up within 100nm that I know the route and won't bother with the GPS. But no way I'm fiddling with a chart heading from Savannah to Orlando.

Would anyone actually make the trip from Savannah to Orlando using only pilotage and dead reckoning? I wouldn't. I suppose I could, but I wouldn't do it voluntarily.

A guy at my airport got a 90 day suspension for busting an R area. I'm not flying if I have to worry about that.

 

[MAKG1]

I'd sure consider that. Looks easy, as long as the weather is VFR and you can see the ground.

Remain slightly east of I-95 all the way to Daytona and you skip all the restricted airspace. Then I-4 takes you right into Orlando.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I'd do the same. You should be able to revert to pilotage if your GPS craps out, but I see no controversy here.

 

[Zeldman]

I flew all over Florida with pilotage and dead reckoning, mostly as a student pilot. My first 6 months in Alaska was mostly pilotage. I don't see why a trip from Savanah to Orlando could not be done the same way.

 

[Unit74]

How's about looking at a map before you go? see if there is any concerns then mitigate it on the ground I steadily of trying to sweat over it in the air.

 

[sourdough44]

I flew from MS to AK with no GPS, I did have a weak VOR and a Loran that worked part of the way. I will admit it's much more enjoyable with a colored map with airspace, weather, TFRs and all the rest overlayed.

 

[Henning]

Meh, I learned how to fly in SoCal on pilotage. I seem to remember coming up the coast right off the beach without having any big bad complex issues. A few things that are pretty obvious due to highways and water ways is all. I wouldn't hesitate to fly it pilotage on paper, that said, I had a G-500 and a 430w for a reason. Just because I wouldn't hesitate, doesn't mean I particularly want to do it.

 

[CTLSi]

$$$$$

 

[Henning]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

<sniff>

Not only could I fly all through SoCal on just paper, I could do it without talking to anybody but at the ends. Believe it or not, moving maps are a very recent development in navigation.

 

[CTLSi]

$$$$$

 

[brian]]

I must admit that I like having the gns430. And I have a backup handheld in the back if I get out of sorts. But pilotage is needed for several of my destinations. I just look for the respective tower or road and go for it.

The only advantage of gps is avoiding class c and being able to report distance to the airport.. Oh and cross countries are easier..

 

[Henning]

I could too hugging the mountains at 500 feet agl. I know you're half kidding. This silly argument about 'you better be able to fly pilotage in case you lose your GPS' is just that, a silly argument.

Can anyone say they have experienced, or heard of anyone experiencing a total electrical failure, avionics failure, or GPS failure 50 miles from home and had to use pilotage to get home? The only way that happens is if you CHOOSE to turn the stuff off or ignore them while flying.

Before GPS, on my first trip on a wet PP from SoCal to Ft Wayne IN in an Arrow II I lost both Nav radios over the Grand Canyon, a Narco and a King. I flew the rest of the trip pilotage or vectors. When it happened I called ATC, told them I lost all my Nav and was continuing on pilotage and asked them to give me a shout if it looked like I was going to bust someone's airspace. They offered, and I accepted vectors Direct to Alamosa, Coffey County, and Spirit of St Louis, keeping my squawk through the fuel stops. Get a few degrees course correction every now and then.

You have a whole system of help to keep you from busting airspace.

 

[CTLSi]

$$$$$

 

[Henning]

Before GPS, on my first trip on a wet PP from SoCal to Ft Wayne IN in an Arrow II I lost both Nav radios over the Grand Canyon, a Narco and a King. I flew the rest of the trip pilotage or vectors. When it happened I called ATC, told them I lost all my Nav and was continuing on pilotage and asked them to give me a shout if it looked like I was going to bust someone's airspace. They offered, and I accepted vectors Direct to Alamosa, Coffey County, and Spirit of St Louis, keeping my squawk through the fuel stops. Get a few degrees course correction every now and then.

You have a whole system of help to keep you from busting airspace.[/QUOTE

Pure pilotage is no radio too. We should have a contest among flyers. A cross country on pilotage only. Sorta like the mail carriers in the 30s. Betcha no one can do it.

Gets done frequently repositioning Ag planes. I used to do it flying pipeline at 100' following little fence markers around the country.

 

[ARFlyer]

I'll do it for fun when positioning our company aircraft for IFR Certs. There is a pipeline that runs from roughly our airport to the avionics shop's field 50 miles away.

Coming back home is easy. You basically point the plane due west and fly until you hit I-30. At that point you either go a few miles north or south based on your location.

At night there is a 1500' tower roughly 10 miles south. So if you can see the red obstacle lighting, you can find your way home.

 

[l8evator]

Pure pilotage is no radio too. We should have a contest among flyers. A cross country on pilotage only. Sorta like the mail carriers in the 30s. Betcha no one can do it.

Oh dear me, my own experience contradicts this sentiment. I can navigate, in day VFR conditions, to any airport in the continental 48 states using only pilotage and current maps, without vectors or advice from ATC from my home base near Colorado Springs subject to aircraft performance limitations for elevation, runway length, etc.

Should I be reluctant to admit on a national web board that I have never flown an airplane with a panel mounted GPS, including any of the Garmin 430/530/650 series avionics? Champ (no electric), Luscombe (no nav radio), Bonanza (one KX155) and never been lost.

I say enjoy the tools and toys you have and, in the same way, enjoy the skills you have. If you haven't developed your chart reading skills beyond the private knowledge exam then you have another opportunity to learn valuable skills and enjoy that process too. This is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

Scott

 

[ARFlyer]

Now does anyone know how to shoot stars to navigate, besides Henning?

It's actually something I want to learn. Once I can get ahold of a good sextant.

 

[Non Compos Mentis]

Betcha no one can do it.

I used to have a partnership where occasionally I'd get in the airplane and discover my partner had removed the database cards from the GPS for updating. That means no GPS or moving map.

Did I ever cancel a flight?

Not a chance. Learned to fly without GPS, and somehow managed to pass a checkride and find my way back home. Sure, GPS/moving maps are nice, but surely not a requirement to fly.

Would you seriously not fly an airplane without GPS?

 

[Velocity173]

I'd have no problem doing the flight with a sectional. I was brought up on heavy pilotage and DR though. My first solo cross country my DG failed just after take off. Countinued the flight on the compass and sectional. Spent a lot of time flying around San Diego with just a sectional.

Flying out of Hunter in Savannah there were plenty if times we'd fly around R-3005 with a 1:50,000 map with the GPS off. Spent most of my IFR flying with just VOR NAV and an ELA on my kneeboard.

Would I want a GPS for a long cross country? Sure but it definitely wouldn't ground me if I had a current sectional. Also, I have no problem with those who feel they require the GPS for a cross country. Their aircraft, their decision.

 

[NotEnough]

Good way points, a sectional, a nav log, DG, compass and a watch. No problem. Lots of fun. I'm always amazed by how good winds aloft are and flying right over the way points real close to schedule.
I fly all around the NY airspace. It's how I was taught with no GPS. I thought a VOR was a luxury.
I do have GPS on board. Make distance call out easier for ATC.

 

[GCA319]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

Well...People flew without GPS for years and none of the airplanes at my current job have any kind of GPS on board, so to say nobody can avoid airspace by looking out the window and at a chart is ludicrous at best...

 

[CTLSi]

$$$$$

 

[asechrest]

Thats not the question. The question is, why do it? I have had my GPS get flaky when the connection came lose in flight. The track froze, so I used pilotage to get back home, but it was in the patch, about 15 miles.

I am talking about using pilotage to keep from busting an airspace near a Bravo like LAS, SFO or even LAS. I claim even a seasoned guy will not be able to guess where the shelves are, and avoid them and terrain and nav thru something like that. You will have to bust the airspace and explain later.

Why would you be guessing?

 

[jordane93]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

I navigate the NY Bravo all the time without a GPS and so do many of the students at our flight school. Give me a GPS and it's too easy. I do like having the GPS though. It definitely helps with situational awareness.

 

[Hank S]

Can anyone say they have experienced, or heard of anyone experiencing a total electrical failure, avionics failure, or GPS failure 50 miles from home and had to use pilotage to get home? The only way that happens is if you CHOOSE to turn the stuff off or ignore them while flying.

ME! I had a complete electrical failure shooting a VOR-A approach out if WV into Gallipolis, OH. Went to Charleston in IMC, did an ILS, TnG, Miss, went to the VOR, "cleared for the approach, radar contact lost, report the miss," procedure turn inbound, lowered the gear and BAM! Lost everything. The CFII opted to go home, after I finished cranking the gear down.

Flew along the Ohio River for 40-odd miles because that's where the only flattish land is located, and I didn't know what else might happen. This was in late 2008, and was an unwelcome introduction for the CFII to the vagaries of older Owner's Manuals. My Emergency section is two pages, front and back of a single sheet, roughly half of which covered manual gear extension and alternator failure.

So yeah, learn to fly by pilotage. Cause was an unknown component on a board behind the panel controlling panel lighting; it was smoked enough that no one could even tell what it was, much less the proper rating.

Stuff happens. Be ready. I now keep my handheld radio in the plane all the time instead of living in the hangar except when I'm going on a long trip.

How well do you know your emergency procedures? I finished mine before digging out the Manual for the instructor. My favorite is "In case of engine fire, close cabin vents." That's the entire section on fires , no further instructions provided.

 

[MAKG1]

Thats not the question. The question is, why do it? I have had my GPS get flaky when the connection came lose in flight. The track froze, so I used pilotage to get back home, but it was in the patch, about 15 miles.

I am talking about using pilotage to keep from busting an airspace near a Bravo like LAS, SFO or even LAS. I claim even a seasoned guy will not be able to guess where the shelves are, and avoid them and terrain and nav thru something like that. You will have to bust the airspace and explain later.

Sounds like almost every flight I take.

I do a lot of flying around the SFO B, only very seldom with a GPS. Planes are cheaper without them. Curiously, the only time I ever cut it close was in a G1000 checkout, where I discovered that the alt bug overrides VNAV on descents with a GFC700. How many bust buttons does Garmin have?

It's not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be.

 

[txflyer]

I want google glasses enhanced vision, SVX, FLIR, a HUD, two hot chicks and a TV in my Lear.

Hey wait a minute! I'm starting to sound like John Galt!

I don't care who the **** John Galt is!

 

[Everskyward]

Thats not the question. The question is, why do it? I have had my GPS get flaky when the connection came lose in flight. The track froze, so I used pilotage to get back home, but it was in the patch, about 15 miles.

I am talking about using pilotage to keep from busting an airspace near a Bravo like LAS, SFO or even LAS. I claim even a seasoned guy will not be able to guess where the shelves are, and avoid them and terrain and nav thru something like that. You will have to bust the airspace and explain later.

What do you think people did before GPS? Or, more correctly, without moving maps.

 

[jsstevens]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

Check out the airspace around KORL and tell me how I got through 200+hours then.

It takes more work, I'll grant but nobody? Really?


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[RalphInCA]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

Troll comment.


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[kgruber]

As usual.....

 

[Clark1961]

Troll comment.


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Noted troll is moving ever closer to the ignore list...

Other viewpoint is take whatever the troll types as the opposite of truth and let it lie.

 

[Zeldman]

Can anyone say they have experienced, or heard of anyone experiencing a total electrical failure, avionics failure, or GPS failure 50 miles from home and had to use pilotage to get home? The only way that happens is if you CHOOSE to turn the stuff off or ignore them while flying.

I fly in the southwest. The White Sands restricted area regularly practices GPS signal jaming. It works, it works good. Several times I have had to switch from the GPS to pilotage, with a patient on board to get into Las Cruces or El Paso. Santa Teresa is just a few miles from the border with Mexico. Never had any problem navigating the area and not straying across the ADIZ. Even at night. All by pilotage. Over the desert.

Man does that GPS jaming work good.

 

[Non Compos Mentis]

....I am talking about using pilotage to keep from busting an airspace near a Bravo like LAS, SFO or even LAS. I claim even a seasoned guy will not be able to guess where the shelves are, and avoid them and terrain and nav thru something like that. You will have to bust the airspace and explain later.

Okay, fair enough.

I know the airspace around here very well. I can easily stay out of the nearby class B because I've flown around here long enough that I normally look out the window, and know I'm well clear.

Los Angeles? Never flown around there VFR, but if I was going to, all it takes is some study time with the sectional beforehand. The FARs require gathering all info before flight anyway, right?

No way would I grab the sectional on the way to the airplane, take off, then try to decipher where to fly. That would be silly. But simply familiarizing one's self with the local airspace before flight is necessary, with or without a moving map.

It's called a "Flight plan".

 

[CharlieTango]

No one can avoid busting an airspace in a complex area just using a paper sectional and staring at roads and mountains.

My first 4 airplanes didn't have GPS. My first GPS didn't have a moving map.

I fly the California mountains mostly navigating visually, my magenta lines tend to cross terrain that I avoid and I'm too lazy to create a bunch of user waypoints.

 

[FastEddieB]

Point:

Before GPS, I used to ferry crop-dusters to South America. We normally strapped in a self-contained Narco VOR unit (lower left, below, and yes - that's duct tape), but it was unusable a lot of the time at the distances and altitudes I flew at.

So, pilotage and dead reckoning and a compass was what I used.

I followed the island chain for the most part.

Though it may not look like it, the over water legs from South Caicos to the Dominican Republic, from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico and from Granada to the South American coast involved hours of not being able to see the land I had left behind and finally (hopefully) seeing the land I was hoping to find. Again, all dead reckoning and pilotage, with wind correction angles via E6B.

On one 5+ hour leg to Curacao, I glanced at my clock while on final approach and was within one minute of my planned ETA.

Anyway, I think this was taken at Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic:

Also ferried an Aztec to Bolivia, one of a flight of five.

Over the Amazon, there was mile after mile with no radio aids available and precious few landmarks on the ONC chart. And I recall a note on the chart that locations depicted could be up to 10 miles off. One very nerve-wracking span of a couple hours late one afternoon as the sun was setting and we were still not receiving the Trinidad NDB. Fortunately it did finally come in and we did not all die in the jungle.


Counterpoint:

Pilotage and dead reckoning are skills - and like most skills need practice to stay proficient. I imagine after more than a few years of just following magenta lines, my skills are probably very rusty. But rusty or not, I have little doubt I could navigate virtually anywhere on the planet using pilotage and dead reckoning if push came to shove.

 

[Everskyward]

What's surprising to me is how fast times have changed. You wouldn't have gotten a question like this 15 years ago because small (and even big) airplanes did not have avionics which depicted airspace. Now people not only think it's normal but wouldn't even consider flying a distance without it.

 

[Henning]

What's surprising to me is how fast times have changed. You wouldn't have gotten a question like this 15 years ago because small (and even big) airplanes did not have avionics which depicted airspace. Now people not only think it's normal but wouldn't even consider flying a distance without it.

Same offshore as well. Once you are used to a better way, going back becomes unthinkable. There is a lot to that.

 

[Clark1961]

Same offshore as well. Once you are used to a better way, going back becomes unthinkable. There is a lot to that.

I suspect that many folks are like me....that is to say we use GPS/moving map/DME the first time or two on a route and then look out the window and use headings on subsequent trips. I don't like having my head down when flying around DEN or around the mountains. I expect many folks like to have their eyes outside when flying little planes.

 

[mswmsw]

...........I am talking about using pilotage to keep from busting an airspace near a Bravo like LAS, SFO or even LAS. I claim even a seasoned guy will not be able to guess where the shelves are, and avoid them and terrain and nav thru something like that. You will have to bust the airspace and explain later.

You ARE kidding, right? Anyone who has been flying in SoCal for more than 20 years, has been doing this (or has done it, in the past) on a regular basis. I am based in SoCal - my home base airport underlies one of the shelves of the Class B airspace - and I don't even have a panel mount GPS in my PA32. I have a yoke mounted Garmin Aera 510 GPS which I use for long flights, but I don't even take it with me for my recreational and $100 hamburger flights in the LA basin. For that kind of flying, I use my Class B chart and I look out the window ("pilotage") - it's actually much more fun.

One of my most memorable and enjoyable flights was ferrying a brand-new Piper Tomahawk from the factory in Pennsylvania to Burbank airport, in 1978. There were no radios at all in the airplane - The owner I was doing this for wanted his avionics installed at a shop in Southern California - and I did not even have a hand-held Comm radio. All I had were paper charts, a compass and a sleeping bag. Of course, when I learned to fly in the late 1960s, we had to learn pilotage and True Virgins Make Dull Company before we learned those newfangled electronic navigation aids like VOR and ADF.

I have joined the 21st-century, I have an iPad with ForeFlight and I do take it with me on every flight, but I rarely even turn it on for local flights in the Los Angeles basin; for those flights, it's paper charts, and eyeballs out the window.