Pilot Threshold

Graueradler

Graueradler

Pattern Altitude
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Apr 11, 2005
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Russellville, AR
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Graueradler
I get asked questions and see questions posted that clearly indicate the some pilots lack basic understanding of subjects they should be fully cognizant of for the level of certificate that they hold (usually PPL). I am glad that they will ask the question and resist any impulse to express surprise that they don;t know what they are asking about because I want them to continue to feel free to ask questions an learn what they realize that they don't know. It is just very worrisome that they got to where they are with the lack of knowledge that they display.
 
You have evidently yet to reach the age at which "I forgot" is a logical and truthful answer.

Graueradler said:
I get asked questions and see questions posted that clearly indicate the some pilots lack basic understanding of subjects they should be fully cognizant of for the level of certificate that they hold (usually PPL). I am glad that they will ask the question and resist any impulse to express surprise that they don;t know what they are asking about because I want them to continue to feel free to ask questions an learn what they realize that they don't know. It is just very worrisome that they got to where they are with the lack of knowledge that they display.
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Graueradler said:
I get asked questions and see questions posted that clearly indicate the some pilots lack basic understanding of subjects they should be fully cognizant of for the level of certificate that they hold (usually PPL). I am glad that they will ask the question and resist any impulse to express surprise that they don;t know what they are asking about because I want them to continue to feel free to ask questions an learn what they realize that they don't know. It is just very worrisome that they got to where they are with the lack of knowledge that they display.
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Some people master a topic and some learn just enough to get by the exam. In the case of medical school, both come out the other end being called Doctor. In flying, both come out the other end called Pilot.

Also, over time people forget things they don't use on a regular basis. So they may have learned it way back when, but have forgotten things over time. That's just part of being human.

The hope is that most want to be safe and will continue to work on areas where they may be deficient. The FAA's attempt at addressing this is the biannual Flight Review process.
 
wabower said:
You have evidently yet to reach the age at which "I forgot" is a logical and truthful answer.
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Boy and howdy. I am there, now.

---

I like to think I maintain a reasonable degree of knowledge about all things pilot, but you could fill a large book with the stuff I don't know - and you could call that book, "FAR/AIM." G_d help me if ever I am quizzed, in depth, on airspace. I never really did fully grasp it. Doubt I ever will. Had to get my instrument rating to avoid greater issues.
 
At 56 I am definitely in the group that starts to experience knowledge that is filed way to deep to be easily recalled. This is why I write down that new frequency every time. This is also why I participate in as many online and in person training events I can. I might even go back and do one a second or third time. After learning or relearning something I try to use it so I don't loose it again.

When I loose the ability to learn I will hang up the headset. In the mean time I still view my pilot certificate as a license to learn.
 
I won't name the post, but I read a thread last night that asked a question and I was thinking to myself, "how did that person recently get their ticket without knowing or being able to explain a very important subject?" I guess flight schools can vary in focus. I know the PPL is a license to learn, but could that be a distinction between the part 141 & 61 flight schools?
 
LDJones said:
Some people master a topic and some learn just enough to get by the exam. In the case of medical school, both come out the other end being called Doctor. In flying, both come out the other end called Pilot.

Also, over time people forget things they don't use on a regular basis. So they may have learned it way back when, but have forgotten things over time. That's just part of being human.

The hope is that most want to be safe and will continue to work on areas where they may be deficient. The FAA's attempt at addressing this is the biannual Flight Review process.
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I got so rusty on VOR use after my checkride. I used the GPS and rarely looked at anything else. When I started my instrument training 2 years later, I basically had to refresh my memory. You definitely lose proficiency with time and non-use.

forums like this are invaluable.
 
I always thought you learned everything and would get tested on about 70%. Could that 70% not include certain procedures? Is that based on the DPE or FSDO? I've read on this site and others about Pilots who have never made radio calls or who have never done other things that I was under the impression would be essential to passing a checkride.
 
Some subjects are black and white and a lot of times the person asking the question should know the answer. We get a lot of questions though that are open to interpretation. That's why we go back and forth and "discuss" our point of view. I think this forum is about getting the most correct answer in a sometimes gray world.
 
It seems most days I meet someone that I say to myself how do they get through the day? Not just in aviation, work, health, everything....I blame trash tv.

I had a best friend who moved to California and listens to talk radio all the time and he actually got stupider every year. He now has to turn on the radio to see how he feels about something. And do noy ever ask him to justify an opinion. Diddo head.
 
Graueradler said:
It is just very worrisome that they got to where they are with the lack of knowledge that they display.
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You may be sure that everyone in the FAA Safety Team shares your concern. The problem is that while you can lead a horse to water, the same is not true of mules, and stubbornness is a regrettably common characteristic of pilots. If anyone has a workable and publicly acceptable solution, I'm quite sure the FAA would love to hear it.
 
Clark1961 said:
Most correct or least incorrect? :goofy:
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Lol. Yeah a lot of times we get the least incorrect answer. Hopefully the answer reflects the opinion of the Chief Counsel.
 
LandSickness said:
I always thought you learned everything and would get tested on about 70%. Could that 70% not include certain procedures? Is that based on the DPE or FSDO? I've read on this site and others about Pilots who have never made radio calls or who have never done other things that I was under the impression would be essential to passing a checkride.
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I think you're mixing up the written test ("knowledge test" in FAA parlance) with the practical test. On the written test, they ask a lot of questions, and you must answer at least 70% of them correctly to pass -- very mechanical, very straightforward.

On the practical test, the PTS lists all the areas and tasks on which you must be tested, and the DPE must test you on each one, and every one of them must be performed satisfactorily. In that sense, the passing grade for the practical test is 100%, and the examiners are all required to conduct the test according to the applicable PTS -- nothing left out, nothing more added in. However, "satisfactory performance" on each task does not require perfection on each task.

Each task has tolerances, such as airspeed on final staying within +10/-5 knots of desired speed. As long as you stay in that range, your performance is satisfactory. Unsatisfactory performance on maneuvers like that is defined as "consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the Objectives" and "failure to take prompt corrective action when tolerances are exceeded." So, if on one approach you get 12 knots fast, you still pass if you promptly correct the speed and don't make the same mistake on the next approach.

So, in terms of practical piloting skills, you must demonstrate knowledge and competence (but not necessarily perfection) on every one of the skill the FAA requires for the certificate/rating you seek in order to pass the practical test for that certificate/rating -- no "70% rule" on that.
 
My boss is friends with a pretty wealthy guy in town who travels a lot for business and needed a second pilot on call so I told my boss I would happily do it. Well his current pilot gets a hold of me who actually just has his single engine PPL so I don't know if he was just flying for the hours or what, I know it wasn't his plane, it was the owners. Well I have a single and multi-commercial instrument with HP and complex endorsement and this pilot starts asking me a few questions and in the process I told him well all I actually need to get going is my daytime 90-day currency, I gotta up and shoot 3 takeoffs and 3 landings as PIC and he adds to a full-stop you mean? I think for a quick second, okay daytime 90-day currency, not a tail drag airplane, not for night time... Ummm no sir, just 3 takeoffs and 3 landings that are not to a full-stop for daytime currency requirements. But he continues to persuade me that he was correct so I kindly tell him to go please read FAR 61.57 and to call me back to set up a time to meet in person. He never called me back.

I don't know if he had just got confused or what was going on in his mind and I understand that we tend to forget things from time to time but currency requirements shouldn't be one of them especially if today I decided to take people up and my 90-day currency expired yesterday and we crash on takeoff, guess who's in big trouble? I am.
 
Maybe the BFR should become a pass or fail check ride? That's how we did it in the military. It puts pressure on the examinee to keep their knowledge/flying skills sharp.
 
Velocity173 said:
Maybe the BFR should become a pass or fail check ride? That's how we did it in the military. It puts pressure on the examinee to keep their knowledge/flying skills sharp.
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Checkrides in the USAF were with SEFE's (Standardization/Evaluation Flight Examiners) -- the military equivalent of DPE's. Regular IP's had no "grounding" authority. We have the same -- DPE's with pass/fail authority, and CFI's who can only train and approve, not ground. The FAA is not going to give grounding authority to regular CFI's. So, if we wanted to do what you suggest, the flight review would become a recurrent practical test, not just a review, and it would have to be done by a DPE. I don't see the FAA approving or the aviation community accepting that.
 
I'm still wondering what everyone things is so gosh all important that all these pilots are forgetting. I doubt I myself could use a VOR worth spit. My airplane hasn't got one, and I seem to do OK without it.
 
Velocity173 said:
Maybe the BFR should become a pass or fail check ride? That's how we did it in the military. It puts pressure on the examinee to keep their knowledge/flying skills sharp.
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You are on to something that will greatly increase the availability of cheap aircraft.

Everyone else is trying to make general aviation grow but screw that!@:wink2:
 
Everything I know is important, the flying details I have forgotten or never learned are irrelevant.:rofl: We have met the enemy and he is us.:sad:
 
Drivers, do you know by memory the legally required distance when stopping at a railroad crossing? No? Do you know the specific distance to dim your headlights for an oncoming vehicle?

Do you know what's about right when you are actually driving/see it and drive safely without knowing the number of feet by memory?

My ppl textbook is over 1300 pages. My poor human brain isn't going to store all those pages in perfect detail. But I'll darn well make sure I learn and fully understand the important points/learn the skills/learn the procedures even if I slip on a detail here or here.
 
Speaking of which, here is a dumb question: how do you CLOSE a VFR flight plan? I know I can open one with the 800 number or even on Foreflight, but I have forgotten the closing part. Have never filed one after getting my PPL, but am thinking about it for a long trip coming up.
 
onwards said:
Speaking of which, here is a dumb question: how do you CLOSE a VFR flight plan? I know I can open one with the 800 number or even on Foreflight, but I have forgotten the closing part. Have never filed one after getting my PPL, but am thinking about it for a long trip coming up.
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Call 1-800-WX-BRIEF and tell them you want to close your flight plan. They'll ask for your call sign and if you're on the ground at the destination you filed. It takes about 30 seconds.
 
MassPilot said:
Call 1-800-WX-BRIEF and tell them you want to close your flight plan. They'll ask for your call sign and if you're on the ground at the destination you filed. It takes about 30 seconds.
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Ah! thank you. I knew it was simple, I just forgot :dunno:
 
I agree with the OP to the extent that people ask "is this legal?" questions, apparently without bothering to read the regulations.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
I agree with the OP to the extent that people ask "is this legal?" questions, apparently without bothering to read the regulations.

Bob Gardner
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They are just a tad bit unwieldy, those regulations.
 
This is one of those posts that makes me wonder if I should still be flying. Yes, I'm a CFI, yes, I renew my CFI every 24 months, but I've logged all of, what, 20 hours in the past 10 years. I forget stuff that I didn't even know I used to know. But I know I've forgotten it all and am flying with an instructor until I'm up to speed. Is that such a bad thing?
 
steingar said:
They are just a tad bit unwieldy, those regulations.
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Greg hit the nail on the head (post #32)....any action that is not prohibited by the regulations is, ipso facto, legal. Some people have difficulty in accepting that.

Bob
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you're mixing up the written test ("knowledge test" in FAA parlance) with the practical test. On the written test, they ask a lot of questions, and you must answer at least 70% of them correctly to pass -- very mechanical, very straightforward.

On the practical test, the PTS lists all the areas and tasks on which you must be tested, and the DPE must test you on each one, and every one of them must be performed satisfactorily. In that sense, the passing grade for the practical test is 100%, and the examiners are all required to conduct the test according to the applicable PTS -- nothing left out, nothing more added in. However, "satisfactory performance" on each task does not require perfection on each task.

Each task has tolerances, such as airspeed on final staying within +10/-5 knots of desired speed. As long as you stay in that range, your performance is satisfactory. Unsatisfactory performance on maneuvers like that is defined as "consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the Objectives" and "failure to take prompt corrective action when tolerances are exceeded." So, if on one approach you get 12 knots fast, you still pass if you promptly correct the speed and don't make the same mistake on the next approach.

So, in terms of practical piloting skills, you must demonstrate knowledge and competence (but not necessarily perfection) on every one of the skill the FAA requires for the certificate/rating you seek in order to pass the practical test for that certificate/rating -- no "70% rule" on that.
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I just used 70% as a random number. I'm aware of the written test standards. I was speaking more on the line of subjects that pilots seem to not have been even exposed to. They come here, as I do, to learn but somehow the subject they're inquiring about didn't come up on their checkride. They're not unsure on the subject. It seems in some cases, they've never even been exposed to the subject. I don't see how that's possible in some cases. It's great that they want to know, it's just weird that they got through a checkride not having to know.

I'm pre-solo with only a few hours and I'm returning to flight training after the holidays so I don't know what I'll need to know for the written or the PTS. I was just curious about what will be required. It seems to vary from DPE to DPE or FSDO to FSDO.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Maybe the BFR should become a pass or fail check ride? That's how we did it in the military. It puts pressure on the examinee to keep their knowledge/flying skills sharp.
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To an extent it is that now. You either meet the CFI's performance standards and receive his endorsement, or you don't. If you're beyond the 24 months on your flight review you're grounded until you meet his or another CFI's minimum standards, whatever that may be.
 
wabower said:
You have evidently yet to reach the age at which "I forgot" is a logical and truthful answer.
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Bakerbro_things_I_JUST_HAD.jpg
 
I find this post somewhat disconcerting, given that almost every thread I have read on this aviation forum and every other aviation forum I am a member of typically has a number of different answers from a number of different viewpoints. I for one find even the answers to the most basic questions at the very least interesting, and often educational. I think that forums like this should encourage asking questions and not discourage it.

I distinctly remember that when I started flying, got my PPL, and then got my IFR, that I was not told that by passing these milestones, I knew everything about flying, and could do everything that those certifications allowed me to do legally. Something about the difference between proficiency and legally. So all because the concepts seems simple to some it may be quite complicated to others and that is what makes forum such as this useful.

So I still intend to ask stupid questions, and answer others to the best of my knowledge, even if on occasion I may be wrong, or differ from others points of views. It is a great way to learn and is not that part of what this flying thing is all about.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
I find this post somewhat disconcerting, given that almost every thread I have read on this aviation forum and every other aviation forum I am a member of typically has a number of different answers from a number of different viewpoints. I for one find even the answers to the most basic questions at the very least interesting, and often educational. I think that forums like this should encourage asking questions and not discourage it.

I distinctly remember that when I started flying, got my PPL, and then got my IFR, that I was not told that by passing these milestones, I knew everything about flying, and could do everything that those certifications allowed me to do legally. Something about the difference between proficiency and legally. So all because the concepts seems simple to some it may be quite complicated to others and that is what makes forum such as this useful.

So I still intend to ask stupid questions, and answer others to the best of my knowledge, even if on occasion I may be wrong, or differ from others points of views. It is a great way to learn and is not that part of what this flying thing is all about.

Doug
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I agree 100%. Sometimes we forget what it was like after that Private check ride. You are out there on your own after 60 hours of flight training and still have a ton of questions about weather, long xc's, setting personal minimums, ATC and airspace. This is a great place to start and wish I had known about it before starting my training. Please share your knowledge as it may save someones life and help keep our insurance rates more affordable.
 
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