Pilot shortage once again....

Point is if you're willing to take that much responsibility for that little money, that poor of a QOL, and have that little self respect, you're setting the bar low and it's going to take much more work to even get that bad raised one level.

THE ONLY reason the pay is going up is because these bottom feeders can't get those two front seats filled, if people refused to work in those conditions a long time ago, these changes would have occurred a long time ago.

Paying pilots more isn't going to break the bank of a 121, compared to all the other expenses of operating a airline, pilot pay is a very tiny fraction, however without pilots you ain't getting anything in the air.

Seems to me the only reason some of these guys get low pay, is because they'll accept it.

There are lots of professions where you pay your dues for a period of time with sucky QOL for some number of years before you hit the lottery. Law comes to mind.

I could give you a fairly long list of regional pilots who paid their dues and are now living their dream at a major. I could also point you to some career regional pilots that are completely happy where they are and not planning on changing. They have their six figure income, get the schedule they want and see no reason to change. There are few one-size-fits-all situations out there in aviation.
 
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Yes, one of the reasons for the looming pilot shortage is the 1500 hour rule but before blaming the FAA, you need to understand that it was mandated by Congress. The FAA had no choice but to comply.

They've ignored Congressional mandates before.

Get to your CFI certificate as cheaply as possible and the rest will flow into place.

There's a bad side effect to this. A lot of people who shouldn't be teaching or don't even want to teach are essentially forced to do so under the current system.

I went hunting for CFIs that want to teach and have a track record of success in doing so, but many new folks walking into a flight club or FBO have no idea how awful the instructor they're about to learn basic skills from, that may save their life someday, might be. And it's luck of the draw, for them.

I got real lucky with my very first instructor long long ago (chief pilot at a flight school for years, flying for a regional when he taught me, etc... and met him completely by chance...) and then have watched people being trained by instructors you could just tell didn't have any passion or real interest in teaching, and that was back in the 90s... It's only gotten worse.

Congress just pushed the accident chain down a layer with the 1500 hour rule, is all they did. We'll know that for sure in a few more years after the numbers show it. See current pipeline accident rates for the tip of that iceberg...

Already know one kid who's best friend/co-worker at his pipeline company is dead. It freaked him out enough that he quit, which I think was a bad idea for him, but it is what it is. He doesn't want to teach, and doesn't think he'd be all that great at it. He's got the degree, and the ratings, he just needs the time. He's also not a bad pilot, and is a pretty good stick and rudder guy, and reasonably good at the bookworm and systems stuff. He also stumbled into a great old "here's the FAA rules, and here's how you'll actually stay alive over the next few years" old timer for a CFI (who just lost his medical last year, and is done... He hung it up.).

He would have done GREAT under the old system where he could be sitting in the right seat learning from a seasoned/salty mentor, but that's no longer an option. And that's a significant loss to the industry overall. Mentorship was a considerable component of the old system, and it's still there, but it takes years and years to gain access to those solid mentors now.
 
And over the last several recent years has the pay been going up or going down ? I started at a regional because the majority of my military time was in helos. At no time did I consider the work to be belittling or beneath my dignity nor did I feel I was "too cool" to do that type of flying.

I was at a regional for all of 3 years. Even the worst day at the regional was far better than working in a windowless cubicle somewhere with a 9 to 5 Mon - Fri grind. I saw a few outside type flying jobs that looked interesting but they all had pretty hard ceilings on their top pay as well.

But hey you can keep thinking about the way it used to be if you want but if you use those reasons you'll surely get left on the sidelines.

Dude, I'm more than meeting the qualifications, if I wanted a seat and with their desperation, I'd be highly surprised if I got "left on the sidelines" But currently I'm happy with the work I do, the money I make and being home every night.

Sorry if that doesn't reaffirm your group identity
 
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I swear, one of these days I'm going to start a thread with nothing but 'airline pilot' written as the first post and watch it go for 10+ pages...

:)
 
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Dude, I'm more than meeting the qualifications, if not wanted a seat and with their desperation, I'd be highly surprised if I got "left on the sidelines" But currently I'm happy with the work I do, the money I make and being home every night.

Sorry if that doesn't reaffirm your group identity
Hey if flying little airplanes is all you want to do then that sounds great. BTW if you want to be home every night there are plenty of schedules at major airlines that allow that. It's even more prevalent at regionals.
 
Don't chase the tin, chase the QOL you want.


Heck if I could work the same mission but in a turbo beaver on floats I'd jump on it ;)
 
They've ignored Congressional mandates before.



There's a bad side effect to this. A lot of people who shouldn't be teaching or don't even want to teach are essentially forced to do so under the current system.

I went hunting for CFIs that want to teach and have a track record of success in doing so, but many new folks walking into a flight club or FBO have no idea how awful the instructor they're about to learn basic skills from, that may save their life someday, might be. And it's luck of the draw, for them.

I got real lucky with my very first instructor long long ago (chief pilot at a flight school for years, flying for a regional when he taught me, etc... and met him completely by chance...) and then have watched people being trained by instructors you could just tell didn't have any passion or real interest in teaching, and that was back in the 90s... It's only gotten worse.

Congress just pushed the accident chain down a layer with the 1500 hour rule, is all they did. We'll know that for sure in a few more years after the numbers show it. See current pipeline accident rates for the tip of that iceberg...

Already know one kid who's best friend/co-worker at his pipeline company is dead. It freaked him out enough that he quit, which I think was a bad idea for him, but it is what it is. He doesn't want to teach, and doesn't think he'd be all that great at it. He's got the degree, and the ratings, he just needs the time. He's also not a bad pilot, and is a pretty good stick and rudder guy, and reasonably good at the bookworm and systems stuff. He also stumbled into a great old "here's the FAA rules, and here's how you'll actually stay alive over the next few years" old timer for a CFI (who just lost his medical last year, and is done... He hung it up.).

He would have done GREAT under the old system where he could be sitting in the right seat learning from a seasoned/salty mentor, but that's no longer an option. And that's a significant loss to the industry overall. Mentorship was a considerable component of the old system, and it's still there, but it takes years and years to gain access to those solid mentors now.

When I was an RJ Capt at a regional I saw quite a few of these 300 hour wonder BOZOs so respectfully I think I MIGHT be just a little more qualified to comment on this than you.

More times than not I felt like I was the ONLY pilot on the flight deck ! A "line" Captain is not the same thing as a Check Airman or training captain. I am glad to pass on some knowledge to an eager first officer but I don't think I should be having to re-teach them how to fly. Hearing your first officer say "Wow, is that icing, I've NEVER seen icing" does little to impress me of their aeronautical experience !

It's sad yet VERY true that you can attain a commercial pilot rating and still not know the fundamentals. Partially to blame are the pilot mills and the cash up front wink and a nod designated pilot examiners. Many of you out there know what I mean.

The 1500 hour rule in my mind was BRILLIANT ! Yeah, that's right I said it and still very much believe it. It pretty much requires you become a CFI. The very act of being a CFI for a 1000 or 1200 hours of having to teach and re-teach the fundamentals of both flying and instrument work is a hard act to bluff your way thru. I'm not saying there aren't poor quality time building instructors out there but I am saying they usually don't last. Word of mouth or flight school management does a decent job of moving them along.

Quite simply we wouldn't be seeing these pay increases and bonuses at regionals without it.
 
When I was an RJ Capt at a regional I saw quite a few of these 300 hour wonder BOZOs so respectfully I think I MIGHT be just a little more qualified to comment on this than you.

More times than not I felt like I was the ONLY pilot on the flight deck ! A "line" Captain is not the same thing as a Check Airman or training captain. I am glad to pass on some knowledge to an eager first officer but I don't think I should be having to re-teach them how to fly. Hearing your first officer say "Wow, is that icing, I've NEVER seen icing" does little to impress me of their aeronautical experience !

It's sad yet VERY true that you can attain a commercial pilot rating and still not know the fundamentals. Partially to blame are the pilot mills and the cash up front wink and a nod designated pilot examiners. Many of you out there know what I mean.

The 1500 hour rule in my mind was BRILLIANT ! Yeah, that's right I said it and still very much believe it. It pretty much requires you become a CFI. The very act of being a CFI for a 1000 or 1200 hours of having to teach and re-teach the fundamentals of both flying and instrument work is a hard act to bluff your way thru. I'm not saying there aren't poor quality time building instructors out there but I am saying they usually don't last. Word of mouth or flight school management does a decent job of moving them along.

Quite simply we wouldn't be seeing these pay increases and bonuses at regionals without it.

All well and good and nothing you said refuted anything I said, tough guy argumentative attitude aside.

Your company used to rely on line captains to teach. You didn't like it. Yawn. You knew going in they hired 300 hour wonders and knew they'd be in your right seat. That was a company decision. They didn't have to hire them.

Now they rely on some Podunk FBO to wash them out in a system that forces teaching as the goal instead of flying. And a lot of people suck at teaching and shouldn't be doing it.
 
Case and point.....


My CFII dumped me 2/3 through a 141 program. He walked in, told the owner I'm outa here and went to the RJs. In the right seat, he was always a dick to me. Other students the same. I though it was a personality conflict, but collectively as students, we determined he was only building his hours. He wasnt a good teacher at all. More than once he got mad and mid lesson, just took the plane and we went home.


All I can say is good riddens. My next CFII said I was not where I should have been and blamed him. He was a "career CFII" with no desire to burn kerosene and I'm a good learner. The cockpit was much more enjoyable after that day.
 
You knew going in they hired 300 hour wonders and knew they'd be in your right seat. That was a company decision. They didn't have to hire them.
Incorrect, when I got hired at the regional the lowest time guy in my class had 1800 hours. EVERY one of us had an ATP. That's just what it took to get hired back then. We didn't whine about it like some are now, we just went out and got that time. And BTW I don't mind teaching in the least. I'm one of the few major airline pilots that I know of who still maintains and uses his CFI. You just need a certain skill set to be regional first officer. Few if any that I remember had that skill set at 300 hours.
 
I am seriously asking this question because I have heard about the impending pilot shortage so many times. I have heard others talk about these shortages in the past. Some say it never came to fruition. Some say it is just counselor or recruiter talk to get you to commit to an aviation career or major. I am now skeptical every time I hear about it now and don't know what to believe. I am going for the airline career regardless because I don't want to do anything else so it will not make a difference to me or change my decision in the end. I just want to know what kind of setting I will be entering in 3 years when I have the 1500 hours.

Is there really a shortage this time or going to be one, one that actually effects first year pay favorably? Was there ever a pilot shortage in the past and how did the industry (regarding wages) react that time?
Today there is demand for pilots. If someone tells you what it will be like in three years it's an educated guess at best
 
Incorrect, when I got hired at the regional the lowest time guy in my class had 1800 hours. EVERY one of us had an ATP. That's just what it took to get hired back then. We didn't whine about it like some are now, we just went out and got that time. And BTW I don't mind teaching in the least. I'm one of the few major airline pilots that I know of who still maintains and uses his CFI. You just need a certain skill set to be regional first officer. Few if any that I remember had that skill set at 300 hours.

Which I haven't argued. Absolutely correct. That was then, this is now. I don't know of a significantly difficult professional role that doesn't include formal or informal mentorship.

But blaming the 300 hour guy or gal on the company shoving them in your right seat, and not knowing WTF they're doing, is kinda silly. All pros end up with an ultra-newbie they have to teach how to survive in any pro job out there.

And blaming them for having never seen ice? That one was laughable. What would they have flown at 300 hours that they would have seen it? Haha. Of course they haven't! If the airline is dumb enough to hire them at that point, it's not their fault. The airline is obviously expecting line guys and gals to fix the skill gap, without paying them formally to do so.

Like you said, most pro pilots STOP teaching when they can. You're the exception not the rule. You like it.

The trucking industry doesn't expect everyone driving trucks to teach for years. There's a track that doesn't include being a formal instructor, which at least for now, isn't the norm right now in the airline biz.

You want hours, you'll teach, whether you're good at it or not. It's not like anyone is flying checks around at night anymore, data networks killed that. It's pretty much pipeline, scenic tourism flights, heading to Alaska, or teaching, for the majority of non-military pilots now. The majority have to teach.

Business charter and other stuff is pretty senior and full of folks who don't want to fly at an airline. The low timers aren't gonna be doing that.

A system that forces people who suck at teaching to teach, is headed for some interesting new problems.

Think about it this way. The system used to put the guy or gal who hadn't seen ice under your wing. Now it forces them to go teach. Which is worse? I'd say the latter.

Damn glad I'm learning under a guy who started his commercial life in the DC-2... As a mid-40's guy who'd like to give back to this hobby and advocation a bit, I'd be a disaster of an instructor (and still might be! Haha!) learning from a 20-something major aviation school time builder.

I plan on seeing how the teaching thing goes and trying damned hard to send you airline guys some youngsters who at least know how to fly the damned plane, even if we can't safely find a way to cover a light single or twin in ice to get them the level of experience you'd prefer, so as to not be inconvenienced to have to show them how to deal with it in an aircraft that is more capable of handling it.

Just no getting around it... every level of the process has to teach something to someone, but making nearly everyone teach isn't going to be good long-term. You're probably far enough along that you won't have to teach as much in the jet as you have in the past, so you'll be insulated from it as time marches on.

There will be folks at lower levels who'll still be wondering why the new 1500 hour wonders "haven't seen ice"... That's more a function of what they're flying and the type of flying than any hole in the training process. You can't teach that in a Cessna single safely, and they still won't have any significant twin time in anything capable of carrying on in ice than the old 300 hour wonders.
 
Through it all, pilots are our own worst enemies because we take those low paying crappy jobs to build hours to move up.

When I had 750 hours, all I could find was either a CFI job, or flying cancelled checks at night in a barely legal C-210. Got paid 50 bucks a night for that. Now I look at other air ambulance companies flying King Airs that hire 500 hour pilots for the right seat. At a lot better pay than I made at that level. Still not great but a whole lot more pay than I made at 500 hours.

A lot of people apply for those right seat positions. Most of them have the goal to fly something big. They are taking whatever job with whatever low pay that will also give them experience to achieve their goals. I have no problem with that, I enjoy helping those people try to reach their goals. Their career goals are to make a living as a pilot, not working for one specific company.

There are many ways to make good pay and still have the QOL in aviation. And as I said, most pilots are willing to take low paying jobs to move up to what they want to do in aviation. As long as we do that then starting out will always be at the low end of life. What is the golden career in aviation? I know people flying pt 91 that won't go to an airline because of the deep cut in pay. I know people flying pt 121 and they think that is the grandest job ever. I know people flying pt 135 that really enjoy what they do and make great money. The one thing in common for all is that they all took those first few crappy paying jobs to gain experience (hours) to achieve their goals.
 
I am seriously asking this question because I have heard about the impending pilot shortage so many times. I have heard others talk about these shortages in the past. Some say it never came to fruition. Some say it is just counselor or recruiter talk to get you to commit to an aviation career or major. I am now skeptical every time I hear about it now and don't know what to believe. I am going for the airline career regardless because I don't want to do anything else so it will not make a difference to me or change my decision in the end. I just want to know what kind of setting I will be entering in 3 years when I have the 1500 hours.

Is there really a shortage this time or going to be one, one that actually effects first year pay favorably? Was there ever a pilot shortage in the past and how did the industry (regarding wages) react that time?

I have been hearing the "pilot shortage" two-step for over 35 years. Kit Darby and FAPA were tooting the horn that the shortage was just around the corner. Thirty five years later, I see the first signs of it. Charter and cargo operators who wouldn't talk to you without 2000 hours and 500 multi are now talking 135 mins and 50 hour ME, for turbine equipment. The shortage hasn't reached the majors, but it has hit the regionals and the 135 operators.
 
Hey if flying little airplanes is all you want to do then that sounds great...

In addition to what I said before

Yesterday we got a call, car accident, it is without doubt, that had we not medevaced this person they would have died, knowing my crew and I saved this persons life, kept a family together, that beats the hell out of being able to say "I fly a big airliner", that's making a difference and to me that's worth a lot.
 
In addition to what I said before

Yesterday we got a call, car accident, it is without doubt, that had we not medevaced this person they would have died, knowing my crew and I saved this persons life, kept a family together, that beats the hell out of being able to say "I fly a big airliner", that's making a difference and to me that's worth a lot.

We fly blood and organs from time to time. The priority handling is interesting.
 
Too restrictive? This ain't a checkout on a PA28, I'd say 1500 is about right.
If the people who died in clarence, n.y. Could speak I think they would agree! Neither pilot was qualified to be flying that plane. This triggered the 1500 hr. Limit. An excellent rule.
 
This is probably one of my driving factors staying 91. I'll fly to London, Paris and New York. I'll let others fly Dayton, Detroit and Jacksonville

My second month in my 121 job I went NYC to Paris three times. My third month it was all NYC-Europe (A-dam, Pisa, Moscow, Brussels, Rome, Zurich). Pay was fine for first year and second year is on par with what I make as a Lt Col in the USAF. I can't agree that the 121 world sucks... not at a major anyway.
 
If the people who died in clarence, n.y. Could speak I think they would agree! Neither pilot was qualified to be flying that plane. This triggered the 1500 hr. Limit. An excellent rule.

Both pilots had far more than 1,500 hours
 
My second month in my 121 job I went NYC to Paris three times. My third month it was all NYC-Europe (A-dam, Pisa, Moscow, Brussels, Rome, Zurich). Pay was fine for first year and second year is on par with what I make as a Lt Col in the USAF. I can't agree that the 121 world sucks... not at a major anyway.
How many years did it take to get there ? Crj 200s aren't capable of making if from Houston to London and the CRJ is where the shortage is. I would like to fly 121 to Pisa and spend a 3 day overnight there and head to Rome for another 4 day overnight before heading back to the U.S.
 
Both pilots had far more than 1,500 hours
Your wrong. Easy to research. in addition he had failed two or three check rides. Lousy pilot. She was very low time. They did everything wrong. They had very little time in this type aircraft. The aircraft before and after them landed with no problems.
 
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Your wrong. Easy to research. in addition he had failed two or three check rides. Lousy pilot. She was very low time. They did everything wrong.

Talking about colgan, right?

From Wikipedia......

Captain Renslow was hired in September 2005 and had accumulated 3,379 total flight hours, with 111 hours as captain on the Q400. First officer Shaw was hired in January 2008, and had 2,244 hours, 774 of them in turbine aircraft including the Q400.
 
Your wrong. Easy to research. in addition he had failed two or three check rides. Lousy pilot. She was very low time. They did everything wrong. They had very little time in this type aircraft. The aircraft before and after them landed with no problems.
You're the one who needs to do research. They both had well more than 1500 hours.
 
The Colgan pilots had the time, but not the experience. IIRC, he was mostly a Florida pilot and she got most of her experience in AZ. Not a great opportunity to learn anything about icing conditions. She was also sick with a cold and tired from commuting from her parent's house in Seattle.

The only value of the 1,500 hour requirement was to drive up the pay and bennies by creating an artificial shortage. On that basis, I thought it a good idea.

I would be happy to captain a Q400 around and I have 50% more time and experience than those two did combined. But not for what they were making, combined.
 
They were very similar to the idiots in washington D.C. Who hit the bridge and plunged into the water. Who also had little or no time in cold freezing conditions. A check of their total times and what they flew would undoubtedly make things clear. The pic in clarence raised the nose after the stick shaker went Off! She dumped the flaps.! It's like the three stooges!
 
They were very similar to the idiots in washington D.C. Who hit the bridge and plunged into the water. Who also had little or no time in cold freezing conditions. A check of their total times and what they flew would undoubtedly make things clear. The pic in clarence raised the nose after the stick shaker went Off! She dumped the flaps.! It's like the three stooges!
If you are referencing Air Florida 90...
The pilot, Captain Larry Wheaton, age 34, had been hired by Air Florida in October 1978 as a first officer. He upgraded to captain two years later in August 1980. At the time of the accident, he had approximately 8,300 total flight hours, with 2,322 hours of commercial jet experience (all logged at Air Florida). He had logged 1,752 hours on the Boeing 737, the accident aircraft type, with 1,100 of those hours as captain.[4]

Wheaton was described by fellow pilots as a quiet person, with good operational skills and knowledge, who had operated well in high-workload flying situations. His leadership style was described as similar to that of other pilots. However, on May 8, 1980, he was suspended after failing a Boeing 737 company line check and was found to be unsatisfactory in the following areas: adherence to regulations, checklist usage, flight procedures such as departures and cruise control and approaches and landings. However, he resumed his duties after passing a retest on August 27, 1980.[4]:10-11 On April 24, 1981, the captain received an unsatisfactory grade on a company recurrent proficiency check when he showed deficiencies in memory items, knowledge of aircraft systems and aircraft limitations. Three days later, he satisfactorily passed a proficiency recheck.[4]:11

The first officer, Roger Pettit, age 31, was hired by Air Florida on October 3, 1980, as a first officer on the Boeing 737. At the time of the accident, he had approximately 3,353 total flight hours, with 992 accumulated at Air Florida, all on the 737. From October 1977 to October 1980, he had been a fighter pilot in the United States Air Force, accumulating 669 flight hours as a flight examiner, instructor pilot and ground instructor in an operational F-15 unit.[4]:90}
 
They were very similar to the idiots in washington D.C. Who hit the bridge and plunged into the water. Who also had little or no time in cold freezing conditions. A check of their total times and what they flew would undoubtedly make things clear. The pic in clarence raised the nose after the stick shaker went Off! She dumped the flaps.! It's like the three stooges!

It seems that they might have been focused on a tail stall scenario and not a wing stall scenario. However, it was there inattention to power settings that got them in the situation to begin with. Based on the transcript of the CVR, they were not paying the attention to business that the situation demanded.
 
According to the NTSB, they weren't thinking tail stall. How exactly they determined that, I don't quite get.

But the general rule of thumb is that if you do something in an airplane and something bad happens, you hit CTRL+Z & undo...she happened to be bringing in landing flaps as the stick shaker activated..."something bad". She could very likely have just reacted like anyone else might, at least for that instant.

Not saying that as a defense, mind you...just another theory that would actually align with the NTSB view.

What I see a lot, though, is pilots who do things the way they do because that's what they were told to do, not because they understand what they're doing. A professional cockpit is not the place for pilots who do most of what they do by rote.
 
According to the NTSB, they weren't thinking tail stall. How exactly they determined that, I don't quite get.

But the general rule of thumb is that if you do something in an airplane and something bad happens, you hit CTRL+Z & undo...she happened to be bringing in landing flaps as the stick shaker activated..."something bad". She could very likely have just reacted like anyone else might, at least for that instant.

Not saying that as a defense, mind you...just another theory that would actually align with the NTSB view.

What I see a lot, though, is pilots who do things the way they do because that's what they were told to do, not because they understand what they're doing. A professional cockpit is not the place for pilots who do most of what they do by rote.

I know that the NTSB dismissed that, but I don't know why. They didn't explain their thinking so I am skeptical.

Given that they forgot to run the power back up when the plane descended to assigned altitude, they should have realized that the power was low as was the airspeed. As they were unable to immediately figure out their screw up, one rote procedure might have saved them. Pitch level, wings level, power max. That would have given them a few seconds to catch up with the situation. Obviously, they never caught up with the situation.
 
Yes, there is a place for rote reaction...unfortunately the way we train stalls in simulators, even with the changes in the aftermath of that and some other accidents, doesn't lend itself to a level of proficiency that's up to the task when the SHTF.

I'd be willing to bet that they got at least be inadvertent stall in the sim, and the reaction was more along the lines of "oops...better not let that happen again, ha ha!" than the "Stall! Set max power" or similar that they were trained to do.

The pilots that have good stall recovery techniques in turbine airplanes didn't learn them in the sim. They learned them as student pilots, developed proficiency, and apply what they already know to the turbine airplane. They're also usually the ones who have the situational awareness to avoid the inadvertent stall.
 
Colgan had nothing to do with icing or inexperience in winter conditions. It was an unapologetic lack of basic airmanship in recognizing a simple approach-to-stall indication, due to lack of basic instrument cross-check, when leaving the power back immediately after configuration prior to FAF. The CA reacted with the all so familiar "improper reaction to stress", and so did the even more inexperienced FO. In the military they would have frozen in training and been attrited. Civilian training however, especially the Gulfstream Academy, who graduated most of the pilots from the important contemporary regional crashes btw (Pinnacle, Comair, Colgan) did not afford the opportunity to highlight the deficiencies at play here. Actually, not completely true, the CA had plenty of part 121 training failures (I'm willing to overlook the part 61 failures, as they are common and don't reflect inherent flying deficiencies due to lack of evaluation standardization in part 61 environ). Innocent blood was shed and burned over upstate New York nonetheless.

As to the rest of this thread, I'm not quite sure a 3 year stint at the regionals before a major airline employment offer is attained, is a particularly representative example of the opportunity costs of accepting regional employment between 2001-2012. I've always said it, the regional gig was predicated on the aforementioned 3 year stint. But that's BS, because it doesn't happen like that. When you're stuck at a regional for a decade, go talk about low economic opportunity costs with a straight face to a dude in his 30s with a young family. Pedestrians expect a much quicker income progression for that kind of lifestyle sacrifice. The regionals are not a sensible timeline in the present form. Could it change in the next 5 years? Absolutely. But let's not be revisionists just because the hiring farted upwards a little, in the past 12 months. 2001-2012 were a complete non-starter for regional players.

All that said, I disagree with the notion of people accomplishing an apprenticeship with paying passengers in the back. De facto single pilot operations at the 121 pax level is straight up BS and a CRM nightmare, and we allow it to happen every day over this Country because we value that 99/rt fare too much to scream bloody murder about it. Go do that stuff with boxes in the back, not people. I understand the cancelled checks don't exist anymore, but frankly apprenticeships should occur with no paying pax on board. No offense to the freight guys, but that's where the laboratory should reside.
 
Yes, there is a place for rote reaction...unfortunately the way we train stalls in simulators, even with the changes in the aftermath of that and some other accidents, doesn't lend itself to a level of proficiency that's up to the task when the SHTF.

I'd be willing to bet that they got at least be inadvertent stall in the sim, and the reaction was more along the lines of "oops...better not let that happen again, ha ha!" than the "Stall! Set max power" or similar that they were trained to do.

The pilots that have good stall recovery techniques in turbine airplanes didn't learn them in the sim. They learned them as student pilots, developed proficiency, and apply what they already know to the turbine airplane. They're also usually the ones who have the situational awareness to avoid the inadvertent stall.

In the military we straight up stall turbine equipment, and depart it from controlled flight, on purpose. Civilian training environment simply doesn't have that luxury. The sims aren't worth a damn for out of the envelope training. I don't know what the solution to that aversion is. Actually, there is, it's called mandatory upset training in aerobatic piston aircraft. But that would attrit a lot of civilians who would all of a sudden start displaying what we in the military document as "manifestation of apprehension". Not good for business, since the going idea has always been that a heavy driver doesn't need to have the stomach for unusual attitudes to be an airline pilot. Turns out, that's not untrue, it's merely an opportunity cost the industry is willing to live with in order to remove barriers to entry. Don't shoot the messenger
 
Which I haven't argued. Absolutely correct. That was then, this is now. I don't know of a significantly difficult professional role that doesn't include formal or informal mentorship.

But blaming the 300 hour guy or gal on the company shoving them in your right seat, and not knowing WTF they're doing, is kinda silly. All pros end up with an ultra-newbie they have to teach how to survive in any pro job out there.

And blaming them for having never seen ice? That one was laughable. What would they have flown at 300 hours that they would have seen it? Haha. Of course they haven't! If the airline is dumb enough to hire them at that point, it's not their fault. The airline is obviously expecting line guys and gals to fix the skill gap, without paying them formally to do so.

Like you said, most pro pilots STOP teaching when they can. You're the exception not the rule. You like it.

The trucking industry doesn't expect everyone driving trucks to teach for years. There's a track that doesn't include being a formal instructor, which at least for now, isn't the norm right now in the airline biz.

You want hours, you'll teach, whether you're good at it or not. It's not like anyone is flying checks around at night anymore, data networks killed that. It's pretty much pipeline, scenic tourism flights, heading to Alaska, or teaching, for the majority of non-military pilots now. The majority have to teach.

Business charter and other stuff is pretty senior and full of folks who don't want to fly at an airline. The low timers aren't gonna be doing that.

A system that forces people who suck at teaching to teach, is headed for some interesting new problems.

Think about it this way. The system used to put the guy or gal who hadn't seen ice under your wing. Now it forces them to go teach. Which is worse? I'd say the latter.

Damn glad I'm learning under a guy who started his commercial life in the DC-2... As a mid-40's guy who'd like to give back to this hobby and advocation a bit, I'd be a disaster of an instructor (and still might be! Haha!) learning from a 20-something major aviation school time builder.

I plan on seeing how the teaching thing goes and trying damned hard to send you airline guys some youngsters who at least know how to fly the damned plane, even if we can't safely find a way to cover a light single or twin in ice to get them the level of experience you'd prefer, so as to not be inconvenienced to have to show them how to deal with it in an aircraft that is more capable of handling it.

Just no getting around it... every level of the process has to teach something to someone, but making nearly everyone teach isn't going to be good long-term. You're probably far enough along that you won't have to teach as much in the jet as you have in the past, so you'll be insulated from it as time marches on.

There will be folks at lower levels who'll still be wondering why the new 1500 hour wonders "haven't seen ice"... That's more a function of what they're flying and the type of flying than any hole in the training process. You can't teach that in a Cessna single safely, and they still won't have any significant twin time in anything capable of carrying on in ice than the old 300 hour wonders.

And that's exactly what you don't understand. The more TIME you spend exposing your self the MORE aviation experience you gain. 1500 is a larger number than 300. Even if you never get out of the traffic pattern I can guarantee you he has seen more and been exposed to more than the 300 hour guy
 
Don't chase the tin, chase the QOL you want.


Heck if I could work the same mission but in a turbo beaver on floats I'd jump on it ;)
Ok, I'll go for 20 days off a month and spending time in places I only ever saw in National Geographic. How you doing ?
 
In addition to what I said before

Yesterday we got a call, car accident, it is without doubt, that had we not medevaced this person they would have died, knowing my crew and I saved this persons life, kept a family together, that beats the hell out of being able to say "I fly a big airliner", that's making a difference and to me that's worth a lot.
No, actually the helicopter pilot that brought that patent to you is the guy who deserves the credit.
 
How many years did it take to get there ? Crj 200s aren't capable of making if from Houston to London and the CRJ is where the shortage is. I would like to fly 121 to Pisa and spend a 3 day overnight there and head to Rome for another 4 day overnight before heading back to the U.S.
Yeah but they have FREE travel privileges on airplanes that will take you to Pisa. You got that in your IT job ?
 
Six figures, 15-17 days off a month, a B-fund (I don't trust non-government A-funds), short-international legs, and the ability to drive to work. That's my QOL niche. If all I had to do is (MIA/TPA/MCO)--(PUJ/SJU/SDQ) turns with a long layover here and there, I'd do it in Aladdin's carpet for all I care.

But, I DO value long intl widebody....because it attracts people to chase those European and Asian destinations I have zero interest for, and leaves the narrowbody niche open for me to camp out in. :D
 
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