Pilot Protests

Walboy said:
Not sure what I'm supposed to make of that tax filing but it does seem odd that revenues aren't steady from year to year. Pretty wide variations. It would be interesting to see the revenue per member number. Do pilots have variable dues rates?
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IIRC, ALPA monthly dues are 1.9% of pay.
 
Another question. Which airlines are ALPA, which are not. Are they open or closed shop?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
There are teamsters, alpa and a couple of in house unions. Pretty much everyone is unionized. Some of the start ups are not… yet.
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Oh. I’d have just assumed if a airline was union, it would be ALPA. What about open or closed shop?
 
luvflyin said:
Oh. I’d have just assumed if a airline was union, it would be ALPA. What about open or closed shop?
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Alpa is just a union. Not the union. If there is a union in place pilots don’t have to be members. They do have to pay dues regardless of membership.

I may be misunderstanding the question regarding open or closed.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Alpa is just a union. Not the union. If there is a union in place pilots don’t have to be members. They do have to pay dues regardless of membership.

I may be misunderstanding the question regarding open or closed.
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Closed is you have to be in the Union. Open you don’t. Not joining but have to pay dues anyway is a thing though. I think there was some recent Legislation about it. It was big deal in California a few years ago concerning Public Employees, teachers in particularly. If the airline unions are such that dues must must be paid by everyone, it would be a de facto closed shop.
 
luvflyin said:
Closed is you have to be in the Union. Open you don’t. Not joining but have to pay dues anyway is a thing though. I think there was some recent Legislation about it. It was big deal in California a few years ago concerning Public Employees, teachers in particularly. If the airline unions are such that dues must must be paid by everyone, it would be a de facto closed shop.
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Yeah. No getting out of the dues.
 
luvflyin said:
Another question. Which airlines are ALPA, which are not. Are they open or closed shop?
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ALPA: Delta, United, FedEx, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Kalitta, Spirit, plus a bunch of regional airlines.

APA: American

IPA: UPS

SWAPA: Southwest

The last 3 are all in house unions that only represent their pilot group.
 
luvflyin said:
Another question. Which airlines are ALPA, which are not. Are they open or closed shop?
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Busflyer answered most of it.

Skywest is the largest non-union carrier. I can't think of any others that have been in existence for more than a few years that are still non-union.

Teamsters (IBT) represent a few pilot groups but none of the passenger airlines that you'd recognize. Can't seem to find a list but, going by memory, ABX Air, and Republic come immediately to mind. Republic is a regional airline that operates the E-170/175 for major airline partners.

I don't know of any closed shops but non-members generally have to pay a fee to support the costs of maintaining the contract and the union is required to represent them in disciplinary matters if they request representation. At the airlines at which I've flown (five), the non-member list has been extremely short.

IMO, a big part of why US airline pilot groups are so overwhelmingly unionized is that each base's chief pilot, the pilot's supervisor, has hundreds of pilots working for him. There's very little opportunity to interact with your supervisor and most pilots have no relationship with him at all. You only talk to him if there's a problem. He knows little, to nothing, about how you do your job (unless you cause problems) and often doesn't even know your name. He certainly can't fairly evaluate a pilot's relative performance against all the other pilot's he supervises but doesn't know. He would need a small army of assistants if he were going to try to evaluate individual pilots for raises and upgrades. Even the non-union airlines don't try to do it once they have more than a dozen, or so, pilots.
 
Bob Noel said:
before I retired, at one time part of my job as a manager was salary adminisitration (aka, annual raises).

It was interesting the number of people that paid (no pun) more attention to the percentage raise than the total salary. Someone making $125,000 would be unhappy with a 3% raise and the guy making $55,000 would be ok with a %10 raise.

The guy making $125,000 was at the top end of the salary range for his job and experience.

The guy making $55,000 was in the bottom third of the salary range for his job and experience.
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I see this every year. People tend to think in terms of raise instead of their base pay. It comes from the idea that everyone thinks they are underpaid.
 
Busflyer said:
ALPA: Delta, United, FedEx, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Kalitta, Spirit, plus a bunch of regional airlines.

APA: American

IPA: UPS

SWAPA: Southwest

The last 3 are all in house unions that only represent their pilot group.
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Thx. I went to alpa.org yesterday and saw their member airlines. learned other stuff to. Like how involved they are with so much other stuff than just pay and work conditions. What about the others? Is it just pay with them? Or do they get involved with the FAA about regulations and procedures like ALPA does?
 
luvflyin said:
Thx. I went to alpa.org yesterday and saw their member airlines. learned other stuff to. Like how involved they are with so much other stuff than just pay and work conditions. What about the others? Is it just pay with them? Or do they get involved with the FAA about regulations and procedures like ALPA does?
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The independent unions are also very involved in safety issues such as fatigue, hazmat, regulations, retirement age, security issues, etc. It’s not just about pay.
 
Busflyer said:
The independent unions are also very involved in safety issues such as fatigue, hazmat, regulations, retirement age, security issues, etc. It’s not just about pay.
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Another question. Dues. How do they compare to ALPA dues?
 
Hang 4 said:
I agree with you, saw the steel industry crippled by labor agreements that were unaffordable. Some legacy companies had ratios of 1 worker for 10 retirees, who were getting full medical. Agreements were reached when average mortality was in the 60's. Then healthcare got better and average age moved up and healthcare costs went crazy. One of the big drivers of bankruptcy. Having said that union leaders don't get re-elected by thinking about the long term profitability of their employer.
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what about the top heavy companies with 10 managers for every worker. like a certain airline at the beginning of the alphabet
 
luvflyin said:
Another question. Dues. How do they compare to ALPA dues?
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APA is a bit less - around 1.5% during contract negotiations (such as now), then 1% normally.
 
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