Phone clearance or in air

Topper

Topper

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Topper
I fly out of a small airport with no way to contact atc on the radio. Assume the departure airport is vfr and it is vfr for 50 miles, no clouds that I will get near for 50 miles.

I can call on the ground for clearance and a void time, or I can depart and pick up the clearance in the air. For some reason, I assumed that atc would prefer not to give the clearance in the air. I have been told they prefer it especially because they don't have to keep other inbound ifr traffic away from the airport till I depart and they have radar contact.

My goal is to do what is best for the system.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Take off VFR get your clearance in the air. Did take off once VFR ,and the controller couldn't find the flight plan,had to land and re file,due to weather.
 
Topper said:
I fly out of a small airport with no way to contact atc on the radio. Assume the departure airport is vfr and it is vfr for 50 miles, no clouds that I will get near for 50 miles.

I can call on the ground for clearance and a void time, or I can depart and pick up the clearance in the air. For some reason, I assumed that atc would prefer not to give the clearance in the air. I have been told they prefer it especially because they don't have to keep other inbound ifr traffic away from the airport till I depart and they have radar contact.

My goal is to do what is best for the system.

Thanks,

Jim
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It depends on where you are, but usually it's easier for the controller to issue the clearance in the air rather than on the ground (unless they have to issue a long full route clearance).

That said, there are no guarantees unless you get your IFR on the ground, so don't take off VFR unless you're sure you can stay VFR until you figure something else out.
 
Topper said:
Assume the departure airport is vfr and it is vfr for 50 miles, no clouds that I will get near for 50 miles.
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I would depart VFR, and get the clearance in the air. That's very little burden on the Center or Departure controller.
 
Thanks for the replies,

I have been getting my clearance in the air lately when possible. Clearance is generally easier. May only get altitude with no expect, typically as filed, already on frequency, etc. glad to know this works well with the controllers.

Thanks,

Jim
 
I think there are already a bunch of threads about this, but getting a clearance in the air is very much a YMMV situation, particularly if you're too far out in the boonies, or too close to the big city. In the former, radar coverage, radio coverage, and terrain may require you to climb several thousands of feet before they can do anything with you. In the latter, there may be too much traffic to issue you an IFR clearance on demand, you may be told to stand by, that they're too busy, or ignored altogether. In between those two extremes are plenty of places where picking up your clearance airborne is easy peasy for both you and the controllers.
 
I've never tried this with FSS but with RCOs you can copy your clearance and get a hold for release and let them know you'll be departing VFR. That way you already know what your clearance is and they're expecting you. Anyone ever done that via Lockheed?
 
The only downside is if you wreck before getting your clearance no one will know you are down; perhaps a miniscule risk...but I think that is why some companies have the policy of no airborne clearances.
CAAM, daytime & no terrain, cool. Nighttime with terrain, mebbe different. Where is Benton? Is that the one in NW AR?
 
I picked up a clearance by the phone this past week at LOM. It worked out alright until I called them back for a release and then I had to tell the guy to yell because I couldn't hear him. I might have to get a Bose headset with bluetooth soon!
 
I think it's easier to depart VFR but I've done it both ways.

I hate being given a void time 7 minutes from now (happened today) and feeling rushed in me pre-flight IFR checks and run-up.

But if it's 1000/2, you don't have a choice but to do it on the ground.
 
No real choice for me, departing from inside the DC FRZ, or somtimes just the DC SFRA; have to file something, just to get airborne, so I just do the IFR on the ground. I don't call for release in the FRZ until ready to go.

A transient attempted a pop-up IFR from an airport inside the SFRA a few years back; controller told him it was the end of the world, and to land immediatley. The pilot got hurried, and it didn't work out; ended with a crash and loss if life.

Not the controllers fault, clearly. . . and the pilot had the controls, for sure. . .but the Feds have some of that blood on their hands.
 
I've been asked by ATC if I can get it in the air. Never have they preferred I get it on the ground. If the airport is IFR, you do what you gotta do. The ATC system works for YOU. Do whatever you feel comfortable with.
 
Sundancer said:
No real choice for me, departing from inside the DC FRZ, or somtimes just the DC SFRA; have to file something, just to get airborne, so I just do the IFR on the ground. I don't call for release in the FRZ until ready to go.

A transient attempted a pop-up IFR from an airport inside the SFRA a few years back; controller told him it was the end of the world, and to land immediatley. The pilot got hurried, and it didn't work out; ended with a crash and loss if life.

Not the controllers fault, clearly. . . and the pilot had the controls, for sure. . .but the Feds have some of that blood on their hands.
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You can depart VFR in the FRZ and get your clearance in the air. I do it from VKX.

Call, get your freq. and squawk like normal and tell them you want to depart VFR.
 
Bonchie said:
You can depart VFR in the FRZ and get your clearance in the air. I do it from VKX.

Call, get your freq. and squawk like normal and tell them you want to depart VFR.
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Actually, you can call, get your frequency, routing, expected altitude and squawk on the ground and tell them you'll depart VFR. When you get your clearance airborne they won't have to read the routing off to you. Congrats on the checkride BTW.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I've been asked by ATC if I can get it in the air. Never have they preferred I get it on the ground. If the airport is IFR, you do what you gotta do. The ATC system works for YOU. Do whatever you feel comfortable with.
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At VLL, I was told by an instructor there that ATC prefers that you get it on the ground. Yet I did airborne pickups many times and never had a problem.

Here at MPV, airborne pickups are difficult because ATC balks at giving you a clearance that is valid below the MIA unless you get it on the ground. But calling from the ground is easy since radio communications with ATC are possible on the ground.
 
Topper said:
I fly out of a small airport with no way to contact atc on the radio. Assume the departure airport is vfr and it is vfr for 50 miles, no clouds that I will get near for 50 miles.

I can call on the ground for clearance and a void time, or I can depart and pick up the clearance in the air. For some reason, I assumed that atc would prefer not to give the clearance in the air. I have been told they prefer it especially because they don't have to keep other inbound ifr traffic away from the airport till I depart and they have radar contact.

My goal is to do what is best for the system.

Thanks,

Jim
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There is no pat answer to this. Saying ATC likes it this way or that way doesn't work. There are hundreds of ATC facilities working all kinds of different airspace in all kinds of different conditions. There are many different ways to get a clearance. Some ball up the "system" some of the time. Some ball it up at other times. Some get you in the air sooner, some get you in the air later. In your example here I'd most likely depart VFR and get in the air. If it takes a while because their busy, no big deal with the weather you describe.
 
Topper said:
I fly out of a small airport with no way to contact atc on the radio. Assume the departure airport is vfr and it is vfr for 50 miles, no clouds that I will get near for 50 miles.

I can call on the ground for clearance and a void time, or I can depart and pick up the clearance in the air. For some reason, I assumed that atc would prefer not to give the clearance in the air. I have been told they prefer it especially because they don't have to keep other inbound ifr traffic away from the airport till I depart and they have radar contact.

My goal is to do what is best for the system.

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

There is no pat answer to this. Saying ATC likes it this way or that way doesn't work. There are hundreds of ATC facilities working all kinds of different airspace in all kinds of different conditions. There are many different ways to get a clearance. Some ball up the "system" some of the time. Some ball it up at other times. Some get you in the air sooner, some get you in the air later. In your example here I'd most likely depart VFR and get in the air. If it takes a while because their busy, no big deal with the weather you describe.
 
Bonchie said:
I think it's easier to depart VFR but I've done it both ways.

I hate being given a void time 7 minutes from now (happened today) and feeling rushed in me pre-flight IFR checks and run-up.

But if it's 1000/2, you don't have a choice but to do it on the ground.
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Did you ask for more time or just accept it? If you didn't ask, may I ask why? I see no need to accept anything on the ground that makes me feel "rushed". What factors led to the decision to accept it?
 
It might be a law of nature that void times vary inversely with the time it takes to get ready to depart after copying the clearance. Here, where I can call on the radio with the engine running, I typically get 10 or even 15 minute void times, even when I say I'll be ready to go in 3 minutes. Back at VLL, where I had to shut down to call, 5 minute void times were the rule, 7 was generous.

I have a feeling that would have suddenly stretched to 10-15 if I'd bought a headset with bluetooth.
 
I'm in the same situation. My home field is uncontrolled and just outside of Austin Approach radio range when on the ground. If I think I'll be VFR for 15 minutes or more, I'll launch VFR and pick up the IFR clearance in the air. Of course, if it's IFR on the field, I'll use the cell phone to call Austin. But I only do it when I'm all run up and ready to go.
 
Bonchie said:
You can depart VFR in the FRZ and get your clearance in the air. I do it from VKX.

Call, get your freq. and squawk like normal and tell them you want to depart VFR.
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The guy with the Malibu was from out of town and omitted the part with calling from the ground to get the squawk. He showed up as a 1200 squawk on the controllers scope which created the panic and undue haste that contributed to the bad outcome.

Yes, if you call potomac on a nice day to pick up an IFR clearance, they really really really like you to depart VFR and to issue the clearance after you have visually remained out of the way of the DCA and Andrews approaches.
 
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I have found that if I file with DUATS and give my cell for the filing notification, the routing I get in the text message usually matches what I receive verbally upon picking up my clearance.
 
weilke said:
I have found that if I file with DUATS and give my cell for the filing notification, the routing I get in the text message usually matches what I receive verbally upon picking up my clearance.
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Not me, I've gotten some idiotic routing, like in south Dallas area and headed west, my filed route was direct to a waypoint west of me to get on an victor airway, ATC return route had me going to TTT right into the heart of class Bravo.
 
Brad Z said:
Actually, you can call, get your frequency, routing, expected altitude and squawk on the ground and tell them you'll depart VFR. When you get your clearance airborne they won't have to read the routing off to you. Congrats on the checkride BTW.
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Weird. I've had them do it both ways. The other day I offered to depart VFR immediately and they just gave me the squawk and frequency. After takeoff they gave me an initial heading and then as filed into the class B.

Wouldn't be the first time a controller in the FRZ didn't do things by the book though.
 
You can also write in the remarks in your flight plan that you plan on picking up your flight plan at a certain fix to give the controllers a heads up when to expect a call.
 
I was flying a bit south of Tampa the other day and I heard a few enroute to Tampa requesting a pop-up IFR clearance. The controller said "Did you get your clearance from FSS already?", they replied they had not and his response was "Well, then go get it or remain VFR" (not exactly the words he used but you get the point).

On the other hand, sometimes they are more than happy to do the clearance. On another occasion me and a instructor had just taken off and we wanted to do some actual IFR work since ceilings were low. Sure we could have stayed under the ceiling in barely VFR, but it was sorta an impulse decision. I was not training for my IR, this was during my PPL training so any actual was very cool. Approach gave us the pop up clearance for an approach and away we went.

Based on those two experiences I couldn't say which would be the best, but planning ahead is always good. I'd file on the ground and not take my chances of being shut down in the air.
 
Can a controller legally deny to give a filed clearance? I mean, I know they can delay and teach you a lesson in various ways, but can they flat out say they won't give you your clearance at all? I've been denied FF before but never IFR in air.
 
In the situation I was describing, in neither case (as I understand it) was there a filed clearance beforehand, both were pop-ups. Not sure if that's what you were referring to Anthony or something else.
 
Bonchie said:
Can a controller legally deny to give a filed clearance? I mean, I know they can delay and teach you a lesson in various ways, but can they flat out say they won't give you your clearance at all? I've been denied FF before but never IFR in air.
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I can think of one circumstance where they would probably deny you, but it's unlikely to come up if you've filed IFR beforehand.

Controller: "Are you and the aircraft instrument capable?"
Pilot: "No, sir."
Controller: "Then I can't issue you an IFR clearance. Say intentions."

But the only time I've heard this question asked is in the case of a pop-up, and based on what controllers here have said, the only time a controller would ask the question is if he thought the pilot was in an imminent VFR-into-IMC situation.
 
Caramon13 said:
I was flying a bit south of Tampa the other day and I heard a few enroute to Tampa requesting a pop-up IFR clearance. The controller said "Did you get your clearance from FSS already?", they replied they had not and his response was "Well, then go get it or remain VFR" (not exactly the words he used but you get the point).

On the other hand, sometimes they are more than happy to do the clearance. On another occasion me and a instructor had just taken off and we wanted to do some actual IFR work since ceilings were low. Sure we could have stayed under the ceiling in barely VFR, but it was sorta an impulse decision. I was not training for my IR, this was during my PPL training so any actual was very cool. Approach gave us the pop up clearance for an approach and away we went.

Based on those two experiences I couldn't say which would be the best, but planning ahead is always good. I'd file on the ground and not take my chances of being shut down in the air.
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Caramon13 said:
In the situation I was describing, in neither case (as I understand it) was there a filed clearance beforehand, both were pop-ups. Not sure if that's what you were referring to Anthony or something else.
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OK, you're misusing the word "clearance". Did the controller ask if you had "filed an IFR flight plan" with flight service? FS doesn't issue clearances, ATC does. FS can only relay clearances from ATC. Sounds like he was too busy to take the information to put you in the system.
 
Bonchie said:
Can a controller legally deny to give a filed clearance? I mean, I know they can delay and teach you a lesson in various ways, but can they flat out say they won't give you your clearance at all? I've been denied FF before but never IFR in air.
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On the ground or in the air? On the ground they can delay you until the airspace is available. You may experience that at VKX if you're trying to pick up an IFR clearance on the ground and DCA is landing on RWY 1. But eventually they'll get you out.

In the air they can essentially do the same thing. If you're airborne and they don't have room for you they'll tell you to remain VFR and get to you when they can...in some cases it may be never. Many years ago I learned this the hard way: I was returning from HPN and thought I would fly the Hudson River VFR southbound and pick up my IFR clearance once I was south of the Verazano Bridge. So I filed a IFR flight starting from APPLE. NY Approach (Newark sector) laughter at me when I called up asking for my clearance. It wasn't until I had made it to McGuire that I was able to get a clearance back home. Good thing it was decent VFR.
 
Bonchie said:
Weird. I've had them do it both ways. The other day I offered to depart VFR immediately and they just gave me the squawk and frequency. After takeoff they gave me an initial heading and then as filed into the class B.

Wouldn't be the first time a controller in the FRZ didn't do things by the book though.
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It sounds like they thought you might just go VFR instead. Did they say "into the class B"? That's VFR verbiage and unnecessary on an IFR clearance.

I'll often file IFR from VKX to my destination, and if the weather turns out to be better than expected, and the IFR routing is really out of the way, I'll call potomac Tracon and tell them I have an IFR flight plan on file, but that I've decided to go VFR with flight following instead. They'll give me a frequency and squawk, and my strip is already in the system. I don't do this if I intend to fly VFR, but an IFR flight plan can be used to meet the flight plan requirement even if you later decide to go VFR after all.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I've been asked by ATC if I can get it in the air. Never have they preferred I get it on the ground. If the airport is IFR, you do what you gotta do. The ATC system works for YOU. Do whatever you feel comfortable with.
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That's it.

I routinely file on Foreflight and depart VFR picking up my IFR clearance once high enough for radio work from our private field. That's easiest for everyone. When flying up to NYC I know that I'll get a detailed, Victor airway intense clearance but typically they don't try to deliver that until I've been given an initial 'simple' clearance and climbed out. It's nice how that works.

If departing in low weather, I'll get a void time clearance - that's the way it's supposed to work.

I try to avoid pop-ups and since I file almost all flights, that's not typically a need. Using pop-ups to circumvent ground filing is a pain for everyone. I'll follow procedure and call up FSS to file the plan if time and work load permits but that's all very rare these days.
 
Bonchie said:
Can a controller legally deny to give a filed clearance? I mean, I know they can delay and teach you a lesson in various ways, but can they flat out say they won't give you your clearance at all? I've been denied FF before but never IFR in air.
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By filed clearance I assume you mean getting a clearance for a filed flight plan. The answer is yes, they can refuse. Not forever, but then again you can't stay in the air forever. There would have to be a legitimate reason to do it and it's pretty uncommon that it gets to that extreme. The extreme example is you filed a flight plan the morning of 9/11/2001 and then called later that morning to get your clearance.

I was a controller and I refused to give a guy a clearance that he had already filed a flight plan for. The situation was he had departed an airport in the Southern California area VFR with a flight plan on file for LAX. It was busier that day than a three legged cat covering up S**t. Flow control was in effect and EDCT's were long, some being measured in hours rather then minutes. He departed VFR hoping to beat the system and get his clearance in the air. The answer was no, the reason was legitimate. He went back and landed VFR and waited it out. It happened another time with SFO as the destination. The answer was no, the reason was legitimate. I was able to give him a clearance to a different airport.
 
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Brad Z said:
On the ground or in the air? On the ground they can delay you until the airspace is available. You may experience that at VKX if you're trying to pick up an IFR clearance on the ground and DCA is landing on RWY 1. But eventually they'll get you out.
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It's also possible that they won't be able to get you a clearance on the ground without undue delay, but can do it once you are airborne. I experienced that on Monday departing from KDAW, and was told by the LockMart guy that a military aircraft at Pease had the airspace tied up but that if I departed VFR, I could get my clearance no problem. That may sound like a no-brainer, if the airspace is tied up and you get out of the airspace, of course that removes the problem and they are free to give you a clearance. But when I asked how far I needed to be from KDAW, he said it didn't matter as long as I was off the ground. That didn't make any sense to me, but I did as suggested, and was indeed cleared before I was 2 miles out. (A good thing too, because the bases were about 1000 feet lower than reported by the ASOS.)
 
Brad Z said:
OK, you're misusing the word "clearance". Did the controller ask if you had "filed an IFR flight plan" with flight service? FS doesn't issue clearances, ATC does. FS can only relay clearances from ATC. Sounds like he was too busy to take the information to put you in the system.
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FSS issues clearances. It's actually a relay. They prefix the clearance with "ATC Clears..." In the example this refers to, the usual way to get a clearance from that airport may be through FSS. The controller may have not caught it right away that he was already in the air. Maybe, maybe not.

There's an old joke
How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb?
Ten
One to screw it in and nine to tell him how he should have done it differently.

Now, how many pilots does it take to get a clearance?
One to request it and....etc
 
Brad Z said:
So I filed a IFR flight starting from APPLE. NY Approach (Newark sector) laughter at me when I called up asking for my clearance. It wasn't until I had made it to McGuire that I was able to get a clearance back home. Good thing it was decent VFR.
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I have found that McGuire is the go-to place to pick up a clearance south of NYC.
 
it all depends on the weather of course. But flying my plane I frequently visit a friend in the Keys at an uncontrolled airport and if its VFR I'll just depart VFR and pick up the clearance in the air. It's easier, and it's better than getting stuck on the ground for 30 minutes waiting on another inbound aircraft or a wheels up time. Now if the weather is marginal, or it would be difficult to remain VFR then I'll pick it up on the ground before departing either through an FSS another frequency if possible or by phone, I'll just call when I'm holding short and number one for the runway so I can tell them I can be airborne ASAP.

When I'm at work and flying the jet out of an uncontrolled field we can per our FOM depart up to 50nm from the departure airport and pick up our clearance in the air. This often times really messes with ATC and flow control, especially for short flights, and In my opinion is not the best option, so even on a nice VFR day when I'm at work in the jet I'll typically pick up my IFR clearance on the ground before departing.
 
azure said:
It's also possible that they won't be able to get you a clearance on the ground without undue delay, but can do it once you are airborne. I experienced that on Monday departing from KDAW, and was told by the LockMart guy that a military aircraft at Pease had the airspace tied up but that if I departed VFR, I could get my clearance no problem. That may sound like a no-brainer, if the airspace is tied up and you get out of the airspace, of course that removes the problem and they are free to give you a clearance. But when I asked how far I needed to be from KDAW, he said it didn't matter as long as I was off the ground. That didn't make any sense to me, but I did as suggested, and was indeed cleared before I was 2 miles out. (A good thing too, because the bases were about 1000 feet lower than reported by the ASOS.)
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I beleive I made that point earlier in the thread.

luvflyin said:
FSS issues clearances. It's actually a relay. They prefix the clearance with "ATC Clears..." In the example this refers to, the usual way to get a clearance from that airport may be through FSS. The controller may have not caught it right away that he was already in the air. Maybe, maybe not.
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Is that not what I wrote? Did I accidently post in invisible ink? :confused:

There's no reason flight service would relay a clearance to an aircraft already in the air and able to communicate with the controlling ATC facility.
 
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Brad Z said:
I beleive I made that point earlier in the thread.



Is that not what I wrote? Did I accidently post in invisible ink? :confused:

There's no reason flight service would relay a clearance to an aircraft already in the air and able to communicate with the controlling ATC facility.
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I herby stipulate that Brad said it first and gets all the credit. It's only a 2 page thread dammit. I have no excuse for not reading the whole damn thread before responding to a post
 
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