Petition to reinstate a good aviation professor.

E

Engine

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
116
Location
Staten Island, NY
Display Name
Display name:
Engine
One of my old professors was suspended recently from teaching for saying politically incorrect things in class. The sad thing is that he is a great professor of aviation and a very good mentor. He is considered by many (who know him) to be the best professor in the aviation department at Farmingdale College.
There is a petition to reinstate him, 120 people have signed it so far, but 80 more is needed.

Please help.

Petition: https://www.change.org/petitions/farmingdale-state-college-reinstate-dr-stanford

Thank you
​
 
What is he alleged to have done?
 
We know nothing about this person's character or abilities, and nothing about the grounds for his suspension.
 
Why would I presume to 2nd guess a manager's termination of an employee knowing nothing of the matter?
 
steingar said:
And thus the reason for tenure.
Click to expand...

Reading the post and the petition, there's an awful lot of what appears to be deliberate vagueness on WHY he got canned. Doesn't pass the smell test to me. This seems like a good argument to get rid of tenure.

I can see where you'd want a little protection in the case you discovered the gene that makes white people unable to dance. But using tenure as a platform to spew political BS.... Gone. He works as an aviation instructor....what controversial discoveries could he possibly make?
 
a) It's not my battle and b) I don't know enough facts to render a judgement if it it was.
 
Sac Arrow said:
a) It's not my battle and b) I don't know enough facts to render a judgement if it it was.
Click to expand...

Actually, it IS your battle to hold a public university to some standard of process in a disciplinary action.

Having said that, you are correct that we have no knowledge of the facts. The allegation, so far as I can determine, is that he said something wrong to one student. That is all the information that I have.

Just a little bit of research shows that Mr. Stanford (I see no PhD in his resume) is an ATP with CFI, an advanced law degree, and another advanced law degree in aviation law. His reports on "ratemyprofessor" (which tend to be negative, if anything) are well above average, with no negative comments at all.

Noting that he teaches at a branch of State University of New York (SUNY) and with the knowledge that SUNY is a fairly liberal institution not known for its Puritan standards or excessive disciplinary action, leads me to question exactly what Mr. Stanford is accused of that would cause dismissal or suspension.

Having taught in a higher education public institution for forty years gives me a bit of insight to the disciplinary process. I've probably told more than my share of questionable stories/jokes over the years and have yet to be called on the carpet to explain why I told them. In each case, they were to drive home a lesson or a point that I thought needed a punch. WEre some of them ... a bit of a teeter on the edge? You bet. These are adults we are teaching and if they can't handle a bit of adultery (sic) then I've spent a career in the wrong business.

But in the instant case, I have absolutely no reason to side with either the institution OR the professor. Perhaps the PROF would like to come on here and give his side of it.

Thanks,

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Actually, it IS your battle to hold a public university to some standard of process in a disciplinary action.
Click to expand...

What reason to we have to believe that that process was not followed ?

As a former SUNY instructor, to me what makes this story fishy is the premise that ANYBODY at SUNY was supposedly disciplined for ANYTHING ;) .
 
Engine said:
120 people have signed it so far, but 80 more [are] needed.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, where does this threshold come from? Does the college have some policy that they will take a petition seriously if 200 people from the Internet, unaffiliated with the college and unacquainted with the situation they're addressing, have signed it?
 
Last edited:
weilke said:
What reason to we have to believe that that process was not followed ?

None whatsoever, and I thought I made that point. Probably not strongly enough.

As a former SUNY instructor, to me what makes this story fishy is the premise that ANYBODY at SUNY was supposedly disciplined for ANYTHING ;)

I didn't want to say that, but I'm glad you did.

.
Click to expand...
.....
 
If you want help with this matter,you should post all the facts. The reason for suspension would be a good place to start.
 
weirdjim said:
Actually, it IS your battle to hold a public university to some standard of process in a disciplinary action.

Having said that, you are correct that we have no knowledge of the facts. The allegation, so far as I can determine, is that he said something wrong to one student. That is all the information that I have.

Just a little bit of research shows that Mr. Stanford (I see no PhD in his resume) is an ATP with CFI, an advanced law degree, and another advanced law degree in aviation law. His reports on "ratemyprofessor" (which tend to be negative, if anything) are well above average, with no negative comments at all.

Noting that he teaches at a branch of State University of New York (SUNY) and with the knowledge that SUNY is a fairly liberal institution not known for its Puritan standards or excessive disciplinary action, leads me to question exactly what Mr. Stanford is accused of that would cause dismissal or suspension.

Having taught in a higher education public institution for forty years gives me a bit of insight to the disciplinary process. I've probably told more than my share of questionable stories/jokes over the years and have yet to be called on the carpet to explain why I told them. In each case, they were to drive home a lesson or a point that I thought needed a punch. WEre some of them ... a bit of a teeter on the edge? You bet. These are adults we are teaching and if they can't handle a bit of adultery (sic) then I've spent a career in the wrong business.

But in the instant case, I have absolutely no reason to side with either the institution OR the professor. Perhaps the PROF would like to come on here and give his side of it.

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

I don't even have enough information to determine it it is actually "my" battle for your purposes.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't even have enough information to determine it it is actually "my" battle for your purposes.
Click to expand...

I disagree. You are paying taxes for this institution. It may not be in your state (you are in mine, not Noo Yawk), but the principle lies across state lines. I agree, you don't have enough information to decide on which side of the battle line to stand, but dammit, unless taxpayers take up the grail, bad teachers AND bad administrators will run the show.

In 40 years in this profession I've seen enough of BOTH get away with cheating the taxpayer out of what is rightfully theirs to ***** about. That's all taxes buy you (bitching rights), by the way, unless you vote OUT the school board/trustees that put up with this crap from EITHER side.

Jim
 
Last edited:
Man some of you folks have way too much time on your hands.

I figured I would post this here because there are people who would have a feel for it and feel that it was the right thing to do.

I do not know the exact specifics of the situation as I wasn't there. That being said what I do know is that a student thought that something this professor said was politically incorrect and/or racist and fought for several months to get this professor placed on leave. This incident occurred in the fall of last year. I do not know any more information than that.

I have had 4 courses with the professor in question and he is one of my greatest mentors in aviation. He has advised me on many things in aviation as well as my personal life and is a truly caring individual. This professor is the most experience, the wisest, and most qualified instructor in the Aviation Department at the school. He is a dam good pilot and a stand up character and I would do anything for him.

I signed the petition and thought I would post hear because there are individuals here that might understand the situation he is in and might think that if a fellow aviator though as highly about this fellow than perhaps he deserves to be teaching.

Here is what his other students have to say of him: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=209334

Thank you to those of you who signed.

For those of you individuals that felt the need to make this into a drama that it need not be I highly suggest you find yourself a new hobby. If you didn't want to sign well guess what you could've just NOT SIGNED THE PETITION - instead of ranting on this topic. Not appreciated and there are plenty of better things to do with your time.:rolleyes2:

Too much negativity in these forums as of late.

Edit: acrophile, I actually wondered the same thing. I did not create the petition but a friend of mine did who holds the professor in high esteem. I know that the petition will be looked at by the school. I asked about what I can do to reinstate him and I was directed to the petition.
 
Last edited:
Engine said:
Man some of you folks have way too much time on your hands.

I figured I would post this here because there are people who would have a feel for it and feel that it was the right thing to do.

I do not know the exact specifics of the situation as I wasn't there. That being said what I do know is that a student thought that something this professor said was politically incorrect and/or racist and fought for several months to get this professor placed on leave. This incident occurred in the fall of last year. I do not know any more information than that.

I have had 4 courses with the professor in question and he is one of my greatest mentors in aviation. He has advised me on many things in aviation as well as my personal life and is a truly caring individual. This professor is the most experience, the wisest, and most qualified instructor in the Aviation Department at the school. He is a dam good pilot and a stand up character and I would do anything for him.

I signed the petition and thought I would post hear because there are individuals here that might understand the situation he is in and might think that if a fellow aviator though as highly about this fellow than perhaps he deserves to be teaching.

Here is what his other students have to say of him: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=209334

Thank you to those of you who signed.

For those of you individuals that felt the need to make this into a drama that it need not be I highly suggest you find yourself a new hobby.

Too much negativity in these forums as of late.

Edit: acrophile, I actually wondered the same thing. I did not create the petition but a friend of mine did who holds the professor in high esteem. I know that the petition will be looked at by the school. I asked about what I can do to reinstate him and I was directed to the petition.
Click to expand...

The issue is we don't know anything about the situation he is in. If you don't know anything about the allegation (by you own admission) then you cant make a judgement call on it. Everyone here is simply asking for detailed facts, and why would some one blindly sign a petition just because someone asked them to?
 
Engine, I respectfully think what you are missing here, is that the skepticism is based on the fact that you are asking us to sign a petition to reinstate your teacher and you don't even know the specifics of what he is accused of.

Let's assume he was a great teacher. Does that excuse him of all offensive or inappropriate behavior? I'd think not. Look the alleged infraction may have been minor, but perhaps it was not. Before soliciting our support it would be good to have some facts.
 
Adam,

The point you bring up is valid. However while I do not know the specifics of the matter as I was not there when the incident took place. I do know generally that a student thought he said something in class that was not appropriate. Over the years I have developed a relationship with this Professor which allows me to know make a judgment call and determine that I will support the professor because I know his CHARACTER.

You are making this seem like it is some sort of court case where the man committed murder.

I did not start this conversation by saying that this man did not do it. I am sure he must have said something politically incorrect. However I do not think that is just cause to stop the man from teaching. Especially when he is of such high character! I am a witness to his character and nothing more. The fact that I and many others are speaking as highly of this individual I believe is just cause to reinstate the individual.

If it were a court cause, even for murder, character witness who have nothing to do with the crime can be called in to vouch for the individuals CHARACTER.

This can greatly determine the appropriate action to take in a case.

BTW, I thought that quote was by William Lloyd Garrison?
 
Engine said:
Man some of you folks have way too much time on your hands.

And some of us have way too many STUDENTS on our hands. Some of whom have opinions without fact. But I try to rectify that and fail those that I can't.

I figured I would post this here because there are people who would have a feel for it and feel that it was the right thing to do.

Sonny, if you think defending a guilty person (which we have WAY too little information to judge) is the right thing to do, then your education at SUNY was WAY out of whack.

I do not know the exact specifics of the situation as I wasn't there. That being said what I do know is that a student thought that something this professor said was politically incorrect and/or racist and fought for several months to get this professor placed on leave. This incident occurred in the fall of last year. I do not know any more information than that.

Then get some more information on which those of us who do not base our decisions on knee-jerk "persecution" inferences can make an informed opinion.

I have had 4 courses with the professor in question and he is one of my greatest mentors in aviation. He has advised me on many things in aviation as well as my personal life and is a truly caring individual. This professor is the most experience, the wisest, and most qualified instructor in the Aviation Department at the school. He is a dam good pilot and a stand up character and I would do anything for him.

I'm sure you would do anything for him, including how to spell "damn" correctly. How many hours of dual do you have from him in your logbook to determine he is a "dam (sic) good pilot"? How many character references do you have to determine he is a "stand up character" (whatever that means)?

I signed the petition and thought I would post hear because there are individuals here that might understand the situation he is in and might think that if a fellow aviator though as highly about this fellow than perhaps he deserves to be teaching.

Posting "hear"? Most of us here have passed the FAA hearing medical. Nobody understands a situation without a lot of information. You have provided squat. Your aviation teachers may have been the best, but your logic, philosophy, ethics, and English teachers are the ones who should be on the block.

Here is what his other students have to say of him: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=209334

I read the ratings. Not bad. Try mine and see how I fare.

Thank you to those of you who signed.

For those of you individuals that felt the need to make this into a drama that it need not be I highly suggest you find yourself a new hobby. If you didn't want to sign well guess what you could've just NOT SIGNED THE PETITION - instead of ranting on this topic. Not appreciated and there are plenty of better things to do with your time.:rolleyes2:

I've got a LOT more ratings than your hero and it sure as hell isn't a hobby, but a life's work. You had best read Thomas Jefferson's opinion about those who stand by and do nothing while important issues are being debated. Same topic with a little more mustard by Dante.

Too much negativity in these forums as of late.

Edit: acrophile, I actually wondered the same thing. I did not create the petition but a friend of mine did who holds the professor in high esteem. I know that the petition will be looked at by the school. I asked about what I can do to reinstate him and I was directed to the petition.
Click to expand...

Jim...
 
Last edited:
Engine said:
You are making this seem like it is some sort of court case where the man committed murder.
Click to expand...

You mention that this has been going on for a number of months. While there is no court case, with an accusation of faculty misconduct, there would typically be a hearing before any adverse action is taken against the professor. SUNY faculty is also represented by UUP (united university professions an in-house union), chances are the faculty member was (is) represented by a union rep and/or his attorney in this kind of hearing. As this is a personnel matter, this is not something the university would typically be able to talk about in public. The faculty member otoh would be free to talk about the accusations and make his case.
The process is far from perfect, but a faculty member in the SUNY system certainly has more protections than shoe store clerk who just ticked off the wrong customer. Unless something has changed in the last 15 years, it is quite difficult to get a SUNY faculty member fired.
 
Jim,

All you seem to be concerned about is whose is bigger.

You clearly have too much time on your hands and are looking to pick a fight. This isn't the time nor the place.

I bow down to your impressive knowledge of the English language and your doctoral degree in English. Clearly you are incapable of spelling/grammatical errors....:no:

Next time you accuse someone of making "decisions on knee-jerk "persecution" inferences" it would help your cause if you didn't scream "Yea he did it! Let's hang em!"

I vote weirdjim for POA District Attorney. He clearly has taken on the role already. Why not just give him the title he is fighting very vigorously for?
 
weilke said:
You mention that this has been going on for a number of months. While there is no court case, with an accusation of faculty misconduct, there would typically be a hearing before any adverse action is taken against the professor. SUNY faculty is also represented by UUP (united university professions an in-house union), chances are the faculty member was (is) represented by a union rep and/or his attorney in this kind of hearing. As this is a personnel matter, this is not something the university would typically be able to talk about in public. The faculty member otoh would be free to talk about the accusations and make his case.
The process is far from perfect, but a faculty member in the SUNY system certainly has more protections than shoe store clerk who just ticked off the wrong customer. Unless something has changed in the last 15 years, it is quite difficult to get a SUNY faculty member fired.
Click to expand...

He has not been fired. Just placed on leave for now.
 
Engine said:
Jim,

All you seem to be concerned about is whose is bigger.

You clearly have too much time on your hands and are looking to pick a fight. This isn't the time nor the place.

I bow down to your impressive knowledge of the English language and your doctoral degree in English. Clearly you are incapable of spelling/grammatical errors....:no:

Next time you accuse someone of making "decisions on knee-jerk "persecution" inferences" it would help your cause if you didn't scream "Yea he did it! Let's hang em!"

I vote weirdjim for POA District Attorney. He clearly has taken on the role already. Why not just give him the title he is fighting very vigorously for?
Click to expand...

PLONK
 
Engine said:
He has not been fired. Just placed on leave for now.
Click to expand...

How about you ask him what happened and whether there is anything the students can do for him ?
 
Engine said:
If it were a court cause, even for murder, character witness who have nothing to do with the crime can be called in to vouch for the individuals CHARACTER.
Click to expand...
How can we, who don't even know this person and don't know what the case is about, vouch for his character?
 
Hey, I am also an aviation student at Farmingdale State and the professor in question was a professor in my aviation law class for this semester until he was suspended a few weeks ago. I think the aviation students at Farmingdale want to know why exactly he was suspended and what we can do to help get him back. Even though I already know somewhat why he was suspended from other aviation students, I don't think the faculty and staff in the Aviation Department would go into detail about his suspension or how we can get him back, as I think the details of his suspension are private matters. I asked another aviation professor on the what happened to the professor in question a few weeks ago and he would not tell me exactly why he was suspended, even though I know somewhat why.
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
And thus the reason for tenure.
Click to expand...
I was just going to post that.

Unfortunately, tenure was largely devised as a way to protect faculty from reprisal for publishing controversial material, not for saying offensive stuff in the classroom. Thus there is for the most part no such thing as tenure for teaching faculty.

Not saying that this guy said anything offensive, as I have no idea what the actual facts are.
 
Engine said:
Adam,
it were a court cause, even for murder, character witness who have nothing to do with the crime can be called in to vouch for the individuals CHARACTER.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it is inadmissible hearsay if you try to testify to someone's character based only on information from a third person.
 
Engine said:
Next time you accuse someone of making "decisions on knee-jerk "persecution" inferences" it would help your cause if you didn't scream "Yea he did it! Let's hang em!"
Click to expand...

Uh, no. Jim (and just about everyone else here) has stated clearly and repeatedly that we have no idea what the suspended professor is or is not guilty of. We don't even have verifiable information that he has even been accused or suspended.
 
Last edited:
N918KT said:
I think the aviation students at Farmingdale want to know why exactly he was suspended
Click to expand...

Presumably, the college is obliged to respect the professor's privacy and is not at liberty to divulge that information. But the professor can waive his privacy rights, if he thinks public discussion of the matter is in his interests.
 
Rumor has it, he called Obama a "doo doo head" but that's strictly an uncomfirmed rumor. :dunno: Someone else said he suggested that Bush wasn't all that bad. :nono:
 
acrophile said:
What purpose does it serve to post rumors about the matter?
Click to expand...

Lighten up Francis, did you notice the :dunno: and the :nono: It was said in jest, a liberal college suspends a teacher, it ain't for contributing to Moveon.org! He may be a fine fellow or a total d-bag, I don't know and quite frankly I don't give a rat's rectum. :D
If rumors give you heartburn, I suggest you don't read any posts about accidents and stay away from the Spin Zone. ;)
 
N747JB said:
If rumors give you heartburn, I suggest you don't read any posts about accidents and stay away from the Spin Zone. ;)
Click to expand...
People posting those other kinds of rumors aren't asking to have petitions signed.
 
Wow, internet is curiously mute on the incident.
Can't tell if he bludgeoned someone, or if he gave them a sideways glance.

No way to pass judgment on the incident.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top