Personal debt is a choice.

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PaulS

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This came up in another thread so instead of derailing that thread I thought I'd start a new thread. I think this is appropriate for hangar talk if we can keep it civil, if not I'm sure it will be moved.

Discuss.
 
Intoto:
Quote: Originally Posted by PaulS
Personal debt is a choice.
Click to expand...
Yep, so? You can choose not to get an education, is it a wise choice? you can choose to only rent shelter, never to buy or only pay cash, is it a wise choice? How about only paying cash for a car?

I am with you though, I live by cash, in fact, I don't even appear when people run my credit, I have no score, though that may change since I made a significant stock purchase the other day for the first time, I don't know how that reports. I avoid personal debt and have a low demands lifestyle.

But I don't have children either, my decisions only affect my comfort and I don't need much to be comfortable. When one has children, our society gears towards providing for them as best we can, and we live in a consumerism culture so not only do we pressure people into debt through propagandistic/guilt advertising and easy credit, the fact is our economy relies on it.

Without consumer debt, our financial system would collapse. We need to create a better, more publicly efficient, financial system before we can eliminate debt, then run a parallel transfer of systems. This allows everyone to cash out of the old system without losing anything, except control. Those who had enough money to control the economy and the path of our society lose that control, however they don't lose their cash or holdings either. In fact the system could still survive in a truly Free Market. If they can make their system of trade one that people would rather choose, there is no reason for them not to exist. The main point is to give people a choice they do not have today, a global no fee choice backed in an infinitely expandable and universally needed commodity. Let people choose if they prefer their interest in result or cash. I know which I bet to become the dominant global financial system. What I find depressingly funny is the lengths to which people go to protect what little they have in a system that is morally bankrupt. Compared to what you could have f you let go of it, it is nothing. Do the right thing with what you have to work with and you will never want.

I never cared about money my entire life, and I have been poor and happy living well off what nature would provide me (got so sick of eating lobster when I was broke that I was trading them up the street for Carne Asada burritos) and I get to live on multi million dollar yachts expense free while pulling in six figures; With my lifestyle I don't need to work much, one season will take me through a couple years, a couple of years work buys a lot of fun and the ability to do some neat projects, all with cash. Do the right thing and karma takes care of you.
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I deleted my related posts from the other thread if you want to get rid of that last, it pretty much cleans up the other thread.
 
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Henning said:
Intoto:

Yep, so? You can choose not to get an education, is it a wise choice? you can choose to only rent shelter, never to buy or only pay cash, is it a wise choice? How about only paying cash for a car?

I am with you though, I live by cash, in fact, I don't even appear when people run my credit, I have no score, though that may change since I made a significant stock purchase the other day for the first time, I don't know how that reports. I avoid personal debt and have a low demands lifestyle.

But I don't have children either, my decisions only affect my comfort and I don't need much to be comfortable. When one has children, our society gears towards providing for them as best we can, and we live in a consumerism culture so not only do we pressure people into debt through propagandistic/guilt advertising and easy credit, the fact is our economy relies on it.

Without consumer debt, our financial system would collapse. We need to create a better, more publicly efficient, financial system before we can eliminate debt, then run a parallel transfer of systems. This allows everyone to cash out of the old system without losing anything, except control. Those who had enough money to control the economy and the path of our society lose that control, however they don't lose their cash or holdings either. In fact the system could still survive in a truly Free Market. If they can make their system of trade one that people would rather choose, there is no reason for them not to exist. The main point is to give people a choice they do not have today, a global no fee choice backed in an infinitely expandable and universally needed commodity. Let people choose if they prefer their interest in result or cash. I know which I bet to become the dominant global financial system. What I find depressingly funny is the lengths to which people go to protect what little they have in a system that is morally bankrupt. Compared to what you could have f you let go of it, it is nothing. Do the right thing with what you have to work with and you will never want.

I never cared about money my entire life, and I have been poor and happy living well off what nature would provide me (got so sick of eating lobster when I was broke that I was trading them up the street for Carne Asada burritos) and I get to live on multi million dollar yachts expense free while pulling in six figures; With my lifestyle I don't need to work much, one season will take me through a couple years, a couple of years work buys a lot of fun and the ability to do some neat projects, all with cash. Do the right thing and karma takes care of you.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of what you say, but I still maintain debt is a choice no matter what your income.

Re: education, you can get a great education at most state universities at a fraction of what private institutions run.

For the record, I am not anti-personal debt. I think a reasonable mortgage on a reasonable home is a great thing, where people go wrong is buying their "dream" home that they can't afford but ignore all vestiges of sane finance to get into it. I live in an area where there are many houses 4 or 5 times more expensive than mine, yet they have no curtains and minimal furniture and seem to go up for sale often if one spouse gets laid off.

I have no idea what you are talking about re a new system. I think access to credit should be based upon your ability to pay, period. This would necessarily limit people's ability to get under water financially. I think some of the old credit laws should come back, especially the ones that outlaw usury, a law capping interest charged to 18% seems reasonable to me, fees should count toward this limit in my opinion.

I think most people who get into credit trouble have self control issues (Note, I am not talking about hardship cases due to health or accident here) opting for the new smart phone and full cable tv package, the cruise and vacation or may be even an airplane when they can't afford it.
 
Bizarre premise.

Yes, personal debt is a choice. So is eating, so is using a toilet, so is choosing to live another day.

All are choices. Big whoop.

Some people can live with choices you may not be able to live with, others might not be able to live with those choices.

Some people make bad choices.

Using debt, in of itself, is not a bad choice, for some. Drinking booze is not a bad choice for some. Owning guns is not a bad choice for some. Getting married is not a bad choice for some.


You may not think debt is a good choice for you. Having kids may not be a good choice.

If your premise is that you are superior to those who have debt, you are likely wrong.
 
I worry that our culture now seems to think carrying lots of debt is "normal". I'm still firmly in the camp of not financing anything except for a house or possibly a business.

Why does anyone finance a car? There are running driving ones out there for as little as $1000. At that price so what if it breaks down? Scrap it and buy a new one.

Do people intentionally carry credit card debt? Seems utterly insane to me. Same with the rent-to-own places and financing of appliances and such. Just make do for a month or two and buy it outright for 2/3 the total cost once you've saved enough. Do we HAVE to have it RIGHT NOW?

Then there's the student loans... and I kinda get that. These kids were fresh out of High School, didn't know any better and everyone told them they'd be making these huge salaries right out of school so paying the loan off wouldn't be a problem. Heh. Honestly these days it seems like unless you're going for something requiring grad school, you might as well just go to trade school.

I have a BS in computer science and I worked with programmers who just had associates degrees. I made $.50/hr more starting and got to skip a competency test when we all got a big raise one year. Not worth the extra years of school or the money really. I'm not sure I'd encourage a kid to go the college route in current circumstances.

While I'm rambling, one more point, we have employers who do credit checks on potential and sometimes current employees. Low credit = not being hired... or sometimes even being fired. While from a company's viewpoint I get why, this just comes off as a horrible practice to me. Cut off a person's best means of solving their problem because they have the problem. I'm normally against gov regulation but I think this practice should actually be made illegal.

If you're gonna tell people to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps you can't let someone cut their bootstraps...
 
PaulS said:
I agree with some of what you say, but I still maintain debt is a choice no matter what your income.

Re: education, you can get a great education at most state universities at a fraction of what private institutions run.

For the record, I am not anti-personal debt. I think a reasonable mortgage on a reasonable home is a great thing, where people go wrong is buying their "dream" home that they can't afford but ignore all vestiges of sane finance to get into it. I live in an area where there are many houses 4 or 5 times more expensive than mine, yet they have no curtains and minimal furniture and seem to go up for sale often if one spouse gets laid off.

I have no idea what you are talking about re a new system. I think access to credit should be based upon your ability to pay, period. This would necessarily limit people's ability to get under water financially. I think some of the old credit laws should come back, especially the ones that outlaw usury, a law capping interest charged to 18% seems reasonable to me, fees should count toward this limit in my opinion.

I think most people who get into credit trouble have self control issues (Note, I am not talking about hardship cases due to health or accident here) opting for the new smart phone and full cable tv package, the cruise and vacation or may be even an airplane when they can't afford it.
Click to expand...

John brings up a good point that much debt is brought on by medical issues. In a way it's still a personal choice, one could chose to die or suffer, the question is, do you believe that making someone face that choice is right?

Our society is set up to depend on lack of self control, we teach it from grade school on. Self control restricts profits, and our system is mandated to maximize profit regardless the result. We encourage a lack of self control, it's part of the modern advertising paradigm. We don't teach self control in school curriculum, we teach obedience to the system, and the system tells them to 'Spend, Spend, SPEND!'.

I don't disagree that it's wrong, but I'm also willing to deal with the change. However, to blame it all on 'personal responsibility' is difficult to do when you are in a society that does not want people to have personal responsibility. You can sit there and tell people that they are supposed to do something, and then tell them they were wrong for doing it.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Bizarre premise.

Yes, personal debt is a choice. So is eating, so is using a toilet, so is choosing to live another day.

All are choices. Big whoop.

Some people can live with choices you may not be able to live with, others might not be able to live with those choices.

Some people make bad choices.

Using debt, in of itself, is not a bad choice, for some. Drinking booze is not a bad choice for some. Owning guns is not a bad choice for some. Getting married is not a bad choice for some.


You may not think debt is a good choice for you. Having kids may not be a good choice.

If your premise is that you are superior to those who have debt, you are likely wrong.
Click to expand...

I don't think I've said anything about whether I have debt or not here, nor have I said debt is bad.

Equating debt with eating and a toilet is bizarre though. Living within your means is great concept. Debt can be a great way to buy an affordable house, or an affordable car to get to work. Regardless, paying for these items with debt is a choice. And getting yourself buried in debt is also a choice, again with the usual caveat for medical or other disasters.
 
PaulS said:
I don't think I've said anything about whether I have debt or not here, nor have I said debt is bad.

Equating debt with eating and a toilet is bizarre though. Living within your means is great concept. Debt can be a great way to buy an affordable house, or an affordable car to get to work. Regardless, paying for these items with debt is a choice. And getting yourself buried in debt is also a choice, again with the usual caveat for medical or other disasters.
Click to expand...

Living within your means would collapse our economy on paper, but it would save it in the long run. Our entire financial industry would be limited to the commercial sector, and without consumer credit, the commercial market will shrink, as will the Asian consumer market as our economy quits flowing over there. Basically all our western banking industry, including Federal Reserve, will collapse. The 500 year old Ponzi Scheme will finally come to an end. It's the tough way to do it, but if we don't replace it in a controlled, no pain, no loss, manner, it's what we will eventually go through if people lived within their means.

I don't disagree with what you think is the right way to go about things, but in order to make it happen you have to provide the foundation for the system that takes over. There is only one 'natural choice' at this point, and it solves multiple needs issues with high efficiency solutions.
 
I went into debt for 1.5 months to timeshift a payment for tax reasons. I also pay most pf my expenses by credit card which gets a total balance payment at the end of the month. I finance home improvements when the city offers subsidized financing. I finance appliances and furniture when the financing is "free".

I am probably not typical.
 
John221us said:
While some do accrue personal debt by choice, many have it due to medical debt. My sister has had medical issues for the last 15 years and most of their income goes to service her medical debt, even with good insurance. Stay healthy or you may fall off your high horse. Over 60% of personal bankruptcies in 2013 were due to medical debt.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-trumble-medical-bankruptcy-20140723-story.html
Click to expand...

That is perfectly valid thus making the title of the thread only partially true, or perhaps utterly false.

I wonder if that was the point the OP was trying to make as a counter to the other thread about choice vs necessity. That is bogus too.

But there is a lot of truth to the title of this thread. There are just way too many instances of people loading up with excessive debt on things that are not necessary. I'll bet that a huge portion of current student debt could have been avoided by sacrificing a bit of the luxurious life style. I graduated debt-free from College. Of course, it took me almost 8 years to work my way through, and I went to a "state school" (Ga Tech). And my wife didn't start Vet school until she was 33 yrs old and we saved up enough so that our savings and my income could allow her to graduate debt free too. That made a huge difference in our lives and enabled us to open our own veterinary hospital, pay cash for our airplane (including the $30k to replace the engine after and inflight catastrophic failure) rather than paying interest for 30 years.
 
ChrisK said:
I went into debt for 1.5 months to timeshift a payment for tax reasons. I also pay most pf my expenses by credit card which gets a total balance payment at the end of the month. I finance home improvements when the city offers subsidized financing. I finance appliances and furniture when the financing is "free".

I am probably not typical.
Click to expand...

I love using the 30 day float in credit cards to pay my bills reaping the points as a reward.

As I said before, I don't see debt as evil, but I do see the misuse of debt as a huge problem.
 
ChrisK said:
I went into debt for 1.5 months to timeshift a payment for tax reasons. I also pay most pf my expenses by credit card which gets a total balance payment at the end of the month. I finance home improvements when the city offers subsidized financing. I finance appliances and furniture when the financing is "free".

I am probably not typical.
Click to expand...

I would say you are pretty typical. People like " bargains".

The problem is each example you gave feels like you are getting something for nothing, but in reality you are still paying for it.

1. You pay higher prices for using credit cards. The store has to pass the fees on to the customer.
2. You pay higher property taxes and sales taxes to finance the city home improvement programs.
3. If you think for a minute stores finance your furniture and appliance purchases for free you have another thing coming. ;)
 
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JOhnH said:
That is perfectly valid thus making the title of the thread only partially true, or perhaps utterly false.

I wonder if that was the point the OP was trying to make as a counter to the other thread about choice vs necessity. That is bogus too.

But there is a lot of truth to the title of this thread. There are just way too many instances of people loading up with excessive debt on things that are not necessary. I'll bet that a huge portion of current student debt could have been avoided by sacrificing a bit of the luxurious life style. I graduated debt-free from College. Of course, it took me almost 8 years to work my way through, and I went to a "state school" (Ga Tech). And my wife didn't start Vet school until she was 33 yrs old and we saved up enough so that our savings and my income could allow her to graduate debt free too. That made a huge difference in our lives and enabled us to open our own veterinary hospital, pay cash for our airplane (including the $30k to replace the engine after and inflight catastrophic failure) rather than paying interest for 30 years.
Click to expand...

I don't see how the title of this thread can be false. Personal debt is a choice, period. Now there may be very compelling reasons to do it, such as life or death health issues. But for this thread let's not include those arguments.

I think there are great reasons to go into debt, such as a home or starting a business, but no one twists your arm to do those things.
 
There aren't all that many countries (by number) where personal debt is even an option.
 
Geico266 said:
I would say you are pretty typical. People like " bargains".

The problem is each example you gave feels like you are getting something for nothing, but in reality you are still paying for it.

1. You pay higher prices for using credit cards. The store has to pass the fees on to the customer.
2. You pay higher property taxes and sales taxes to finance the home improvement programs.
3. If you think for a minute stores finance your furniture and appliance purchases for free you have another thing coming. ;)
Click to expand...

Oh for sure. Reward credit cards cost merchants which cost customers. The problem is if I am not playing that game I am paying extra for nothing.
 
ChrisK said:
Oh for sure. Reward credit cards cost merchants which cost customers. The problem is if I am not playing that game I am paying extra for nothing.
Click to expand...

That is what you think making you "typical". ;)

There is no shame in negotiating the best deal, but always remember if they say yes, they are still making money. ;)
 
ChrisK said:
Oh for sure. Reward credit cards cost merchants which cost customers. The problem is if I am not playing that game I am paying extra for nothing.
Click to expand...

On larger purchases I always ask for a discount for cash, at around 2% I'll go for it.
 
PaulS said:
I don't see how the title of this thread can be false. Personal debt is a choice, period. Now there may be very compelling reasons to do it, such as life or death health issues. But for this thread let's not include those arguments.

I think there are great reasons to go into debt, such as a home or starting a business, but no one twists your arm to do those things.
Click to expand...
I agree with all of that. But just like the other thread, the choice is a trade-off for risk/reward. Some people make good choices and some people make bad choices and some people have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Everything in life is a choice. You can choose to eat or not, but you have to live (or die) with the consequences.
 
John221us said:
While some do accrue personal debt by choice, many have it due to medical debt. My sister has had medical issues for the last 15 years and most of their income goes to service her medical debt, even with good insurance. Stay healthy or you may fall off your high horse. Over 60% of personal bankruptcies in 2013 were due to medical debt.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-trumble-medical-bankruptcy-20140723-story.html
Click to expand...

John, sorry about your sister, I should have added some caveats about medical situations which can be devastating and the only option for life is to go into hopeless debt. I have had relatives with similar situations.

I'm not trying to ride a high horse here, but if I had to guess, I would guess that most debt problems have nothing to do with medical issues. That is what I was thinking about when I posted.
 
PaulS said:
John, sorry about your sister, I should have added some caveats about medical situations which can be devastating and the only option for life is to go into hopeless debt. I have had relatives with similar situations.

I'm not trying to ride a high horse here, but if I had to guess, I would guess that most debt problems have nothing to do with medical issues. That is what I was thinking about when I posted.
Click to expand...

Hopeless medical debt? :dunno:

Debt can be discharged in BK court and often is. :dunno:

How is that hopeless?
 
Debt sure is a choice.

1. You choose to buy something you cannot afford.
2. You choose to ask someone for a loan to make the purchase.
3. You agree to pay the interest on the money you borrowed.
Then you turn around and blame the person who gave you the loan when you cannot pay it off. I don't have anything against financing or getting yourself into debt, just remember the terms and conditions are provided before you sign. I don't buy anything that I can't pay for on the spot.
 
I can make a serious argument that all debt haters are suckers. Stay with me...

Every year your "giant" pile of cash is worth less and less, taxed and devalued beyond any of your control.

I can borrow money typically at 3-4% depending on the source, sometimes 0%. I earn YOY over 9% on my investment strategy, which is my busienss. I'm not special so can you. I have a hoard of silver and gold and lead.

I paid $165K this year in interest and earned over $800k in returns. Plus in the event that I get in an accident or a legal judgement good luck finding any asset that doesn't have a lien on it.

I'm the real ghost. All my assets sit in a blind trust with two layers of LLC one US one Cayman between me and them. I totaled my SUV last year, you should have seen the deposition. Driving a $75k SUV living in a 7 figure house they got zip from me. I'm just an employee. I even used my international DL at the scene it took a court order to get my FL DMV records.

For all the credit avoiders, your cash will be worthless in a real emergency. All it will take is finding 3 dead people in NYC due to ebola to clear the shelves for a few days. And if massive inflation hits, I throw the party to end all parties. I get to repay the bank with devalued money in full. YMMV but mine has been working great.

And anyone proud of a zero FICO will be shocked one day when they need real emergency money like to fix a medical problem, no way it's gonna happen. You got $500K to fix a heart problem?

You want to save money stop buying any insurance you are not legally forced to buy. That's coming from a guy that owns a workers comp carrier. Get an umbrella policy, sit it over your trust, and flip everyone the bird.

Just a different POV obviously for most of us here the basic plan is working great. Paying cash sounds sexy, doesn't make it right though. In the end you need both ways to keep the system working.
 
Very sorry to hear about your sister, but wow! That number (over 60%) is hard to believe. I know scores or more people that have declared bankruptcy, and only two of them were due to medical reasons. One of them CHOSE not to carry medical insurance and the other could have paid her bills, but chose bankruptcy instead. But those that do suffer those kinds of medical issues all have my sympathy.

But not so much for the majority (that I know) that brought on their financial issues by choice. Spending money on life-style items and sacrificing personal savings is a choice that has burnt many people that got laid off.

John221us said:
While some do accrue personal debt by choice, many have it due to medical debt. My sister has had medical issues for the last 15 years and most of their income goes to service her medical debt, even with good insurance. Stay healthy or you may fall off your high horse. Over 60% of personal bankruptcies in 2013 were due to medical debt.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-trumble-medical-bankruptcy-20140723-story.html
Click to expand...
 
The banks encourage debt. You have to be carefull to study the terms. It's your choice. If it looks like the amount you are being given is to large,don't take the loan. Remember the zero down mortgage scam ,the banks were bailed out ,not the borrowers. Except for medical debt,you do have a choice.
 
ChrisK said:
I went into debt for 1.5 months to timeshift a payment for tax reasons. I also pay most pf my expenses by credit card which gets a total balance payment at the end of the month. I finance home improvements when the city offers subsidized financing. I finance appliances and furniture when the financing is "free".

I am probably not typical.
Click to expand...

The scary thing is, this was typical for many people who were in fine shape, until they ran out of a job. Then suddenly they could not pay off the financed float and bang, the interest just got jacked to 26.4% as you make a minimum payment that does not touch principle. Plus now they are running out of their 9 month nest egg, still unemployed, and start buying groceries on the credit card while the bank is foreclosing on the house or condo. By the time they get another job 2 years later that pays just barely enough to live modestly, they have $40,000 or more in owed debt, especially if they still had student debt, heck, they could be over $100k in debt.

As for furniture, the only way to get furniture s from the Rent To Own store where you end up paying 100% interest on MSRP. Miss your payment and you miss your couch. No, furniture comes from Salvation Army or similar Thrift Shop(or April bulk trash day on Palm Beach, you would not believe the furniture that gets thrown away when the winter rental crowd leaves.:eek: That's where I go furniture shopping.:yes:)
 
tlrussell said:
I can make a serious argument that all debt haters are suckers. Stay with me...

Every year your "giant" pile of cash is worth less and less, taxed and devalued beyond any of your control.

I can borrow money typically at 3-4% depending on the source, sometimes 0%. I earn YOY over 9% on my investment strategy, which is my busienss. I'm not special so can you. I have a hoard of silver and gold and lead.

I paid $165K this year in interest and earned over $800k in returns. Plus in the event that I get in an accident or a legal judgement good luck finding any asset that doesn't have a lien on it.

I'm the real ghost. All my assets sit in a blind trust with two layers of LLC one US one Cayman between me and them. I totaled my SUV last year, you should have seen the deposition. Driving a $75k SUV living in a 7 figure house they got zip from me. I'm just an employee. I even used my international DL at the scene it took a court order to get my FL DMV records.

For all the credit avoiders, your cash will be worthless in a real emergency. All it will take is finding 3 dead people in NYC due to ebola to clear the shelves for a few days. And if massive inflation hits, I throw the party to end all parties. I get to repay the bank with devalued money in full. YMMV but mine has been working great.

And anyone proud of a zero FICO will be shocked one day when they need real emergency money like to fix a medical problem, no way it's gonna happen. You got $500K to fix a heart problem?

You want to save money stop buying any insurance you are not legally forced to buy. That's coming from a guy that owns a workers comp carrier. Get an umbrella policy, sit it over your trust, and flip everyone the bird.

Just a different POV obviously for most of us here the basic plan is working great. Paying cash sounds sexy, doesn't make it right though. In the end you need both ways to keep the system working.
Click to expand...

The only way that the "pile" gets taxed is if it's in the US. I have a similar way of thinking this is why I live in Costa Rica and everything I own in the US is owned by a CR LLC. As far as the medical bills go, a 500k operation in the states is probably 100k in Costa Rica. This is why so many people come from the US every year to have dental and medical procedures down here. There is a whole market down here that caters to The medical tourist and they do quite well. If cash is worthless in a real emergency what is credit going to be worth? I make good money every year on hard money loans, but I only loan with collateral up front and only loan 10% on that collateral. I would love to have 10 guys like you paying 165k in interest yearly and like you said it's a differnt POV.
 
Is it a choice? Yes.

So, do you look down on someone that has debt?
 
ChrisK said:
You know, I have heard of people doing this. I need to grow more chutzpah or something.
Click to expand...

That is no feat, seller does not care if the purchase is cash or not. They would have given the 2% away anyway...I got 28% off a new(floor model) RV (not the plane) I asked for 35%.
 
BG305 said:
The only way that the "pile" gets taxed is if it's in the US. I have a similar way of thinking this is why I live in Costa Rica and everything I own in the US is owned by a CR LLC. As far as the medical bills go, a 500k operation in the states is probably 100k in Costa Rica. This is why so many people come from the US every year to have dental and medical procedures down here. There is a whole market down here that caters to The medical tourist and they do quite well. If cash is worthless in a real emergency what is credit going to be worth? I make good money every year on hard money loans, but I only loan with collateral up front and only loan 10% on that collateral. I would love to have 10 guys like you paying 165k in interest yearly and like you said it's a differnt POV.
Click to expand...

Good points.
 
tlrussell said:
That is no feat, seller does not care if the purchase is cash or not. They would have given the 2% away anyway...I got 28% off a new(floor model) RV (not the plane) I asked for 35%.
Click to expand...

I'm talking retail as in stores. You're foolish if you give what a car/boat/rv/airplane/snowmobile/ furniture or whatever salesperson offers.

Depending on the item and your willingness to walk you can save a lot. My threshold to not use a credit card is 2% otherwise it's not worth it to me.
 
PaulS said:
I'm talking retail as in stores. You're foolish if you give what a car/boat/rv/airplane/snowmobile/ furniture or whatever salesperson offers.

Depending on the item and your willingness to walk you can save a lot. My threshold to not use a credit card is 2% otherwise it's not worth it to me.
Click to expand...


So, you have everything figured out?

Are you seeking advice in this thread or just confirmation?
 
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