KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Welcome to PoA.
I sometimes forget that this isn't PPW, APC or JC. Forgot that the amateurs like to throw stones at **** they don't jack about. Oh well, I'm done here
People actually fall for PTF schemes?
- Thread starter James331
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I sometimes forget that this isn't PPW, APC or JC. Forgot that the amateurs like to throw stones at **** they don't jack about. Oh well, I'm done here
The purpose of a business is to provide a benefit to society. In exchange for that benefit, society pays for the cost of that benefit, including the cost to support the people who provide that benefit. The share holders should invest because they have an interest in that product or service, so they invest in the business to offset future costs of attaining that product or service. Our system will support this, however our ethics do not.
When you commoditize money, that takes the top 15% of the economy in it's own cost and burden. When you decommoditize money, everybody ends up with a raise.
When you commoditize money, that takes the top 15% of the economy in it's own cost and burden. When you decommoditize money, everybody ends up with a raise.
Captain
Final Approach
We all know that airlines (and smaller carriers) only go into business and run their business to employ a pilot group. The most critical part of any business (carrier) is to provide pilot jobs, new aircraft, excellent pay and working conditions for said pilots and of course do everything possible to ensure quick upgrades for the pilots.
The shareholder? Well, they just need to chill out and recognize what the mission truly is.
There's a bit of a spread between "the most critical part of any carrier" and "charging pilots to work".
Run along then if this little exchange is too much for you. Can't believe I'm taking flak standing up for pilots on a damn pilot forum...go figure.
James331
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James331
No kidding
Amateurs, slick Im probably higher up the totem pole than you.
Go on JC, APC, PPRUNE, whatever and ask and see what they think about PTF
You'll get alot more flack for supporting it than you got from me.
No kidding
Amateurs, slick Im probably higher up the totem pole than you.
Go on JC, APC, PPRUNE, whatever and ask and see what they think about PTF
You'll get alot more flack for supporting it than you got from me.
Oh yeah, that used to be the most cursed topic on pprune, many flame wars, but I haven't looked there in years.KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
No kidding
Amateurs, slick Im probably higher up the totem pole than you.
Go on JC, APC, PPRUNE, whatever and ask and see what they think about PTF
You'll get alot more flack for supporting it than you got from me.
Again, I'm not supporting people doing PFT. I'm saying if a company decides they want to do it, so be it. It helps to keep me employed, so whatever.
Clearly, flying that seaplane in your avatar is clearly so far up above me, you've got no idea what I do.
James331
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James331
That's my personal plane, not what I fly for work.
From how you responded and your 1900 type in your sig, sounds like you fly for Ameriflght, also explains the I drank the kool-aid attitude you have towards them.
I never dragged Ameriflight through the mud, Ameriflight did that to themselves with PTF.
Whether it pilots paying for training, paying to build time at one of these operations, or work for $2 an hour. There will always be some
pilots that are going to do what it takes to get those hours. The quickest I have ever seen people get into a fight was when it came to go flying with a pilot on the field and get multi time.
Being that the whole logbook is an honor system, I'll bet there are plenty of pilots out there working for the airlines that have pencil whipped hours. They might have done it by adding a .1 or .2 to every flight, they might have done it while flying with thier buddy when both of them logged the entire flight.
People are gonna do what they want. Thats justthe way it is.
pilots that are going to do what it takes to get those hours. The quickest I have ever seen people get into a fight was when it came to go flying with a pilot on the field and get multi time.
Being that the whole logbook is an honor system, I'll bet there are plenty of pilots out there working for the airlines that have pencil whipped hours. They might have done it by adding a .1 or .2 to every flight, they might have done it while flying with thier buddy when both of them logged the entire flight.
People are gonna do what they want. Thats justthe way it is.
cirrusmx
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campoalavista
i really dont see what is so wrong about ptf. company supplies training and some experience to low time pilots who might otherwise spend that money in training or building hours on a 172 for a lack of an aviation job. it probably expedites the time taken to get a real job, not banner towing or cfiing forever until the next opening on a ratty 206 gig shows up. who knows it might also be a good networking opportunity. to each his own. after all, Some people end up buying a 152/172 and pay to loiter for several hundred hours until they can get hired.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
If we could get rid of those meddling unions think how much kids would pay to fly at a legacy airline.
Captain
Final Approach
It's been long enough I'd bet most don't even know what a scab is. I'll bet you could, at a smaller flag carrier, let the whole lot go and replace them with eager beaver talent willing to pay to get the experience to get to a ...well, to get to pay to fly there. Maybe get an STC to mount a GoPro on all the planes so they can upload YouTube videos of themselves at 'work'.
Now we got an idea. The shareholders will be so proud!
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seriously, I can make up to $170/flight hour clear profit from someone that wants to buy flight time? Man that would cut my fuel bill by something like 80%.
I will take this up with my fellow share holders.
When I was a student 20 years ago a lot of the instructors thought paying for flight time was a jump start to the regionals.
James331
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Don't join the dark side.
I think you'd be the only EMS company doing it...
Be part of the solution not the problem.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
No, the real money is running the EagleJet like places. Go be like Kit Darby and just be the middle man.
Richard
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Ack...city life
If it's too good to be true....
In the 1990s I was looking at some place named Eagle Jet or something like that. Some years later it was Key Lime. Reading the fine print was what clinched it for me. They didn't get a dime from me. That these kind of operations are still active leads me to believe they don't teach business law anymore.
But I would cross a line in a heartbeat. I would gladly do it for a variety of reasons but the biggest reason would be to stick it you, the union lackeys. That's right, I have been, and will be again, a scab. And I laugh my ass off.
In the 1990s I was looking at some place named Eagle Jet or something like that. Some years later it was Key Lime. Reading the fine print was what clinched it for me. They didn't get a dime from me. That these kind of operations are still active leads me to believe they don't teach business law anymore.
But I would cross a line in a heartbeat. I would gladly do it for a variety of reasons but the biggest reason would be to stick it you, the union lackeys. That's right, I have been, and will be again, a scab. And I laugh my ass off.
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Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
We will be transitioning to leased PC-12s next year. I need to make payments somehow...
Richard
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Ack...city life
Other than placations do you have something you wish to say?
What makes it the 'dark side'? So what if other operators have chose not to go that way? To tell you the truth, what you say sounds like straight out of the unions.
GO Jet anyone?
In the interest of full disclosure I think one would be a fool to pay for a seat to 'build' flight time. But hey, ain't it great that one could choose as they wish?
The problem is that it assures that the least competent people will be those available in the pilot pool. The most competent people will avoid it because they will also be otherwise competent in industries that reward them better. You really have to want to be a pilot bad to do it, and when you say "You need to pay us $20k to come work for us." You have just run off everybody that has a lick of common sense and hired those with poor decision making capabilities.
The process puts the traveling public at risk.
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Everskyward
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I remember these days too. Wondering how it worked out for them. The answer is probably all over the board.
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Kayoh@190
It's not just a union mentality. Working for free (or worse, paying for the gig) cheapens the value of available work. People don't like that. Go to any graphic designer job board and offer up free design services and see what kind of response you get. But hey, you're just trying to thicken your portfolio of work to get a leg up in the industry, right?
I don't blame Ameriflight or other companies that offer this - if people didn't sign up for this kind of thing, it wouldn't happen. But from the pilot standpoint, I think paying money for the time is pretty stupid. Especially in this job environment, where all you need to be a regional pilot are ATP quals and the ability to fog a mirror.
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KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Again, I'll say it, the Eaglejet deal has very few (probably 5% or less) American pilots. It's really set up for foreign nationals to get time in a manner cheaper than they could back home.
I think that the American's who do the Eaglejet type program are setting themselves up for trouble down the road.
James331
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People can do as they wish.
And I don't care about unions one way or another.
I would never work, or do business with a company that participated in PTF.
Reason is PTF demonstrates, IMO, that the operator wants to take advantage of desperate and less than intelligent people.
Second to that PTF drags our profession down, lowers the bell curve, so to speak for CPL and ATP expected pay and conditions.
You'll find most working pilots agree, many wont hire a guy with PTF time.
This is another real problem, it rewards taking advantage of people, this is a model that society needs to refuse to support out of self interest. It is what is growing and sending us into the ****ter.
Captain
Final Approach
As a guy who has sat on hiring boards I can confirm this. Typically they get weeded out prior to the interview though. If, by some chance, it's discovered at the interview they are thanked and told we'll be in touch. An email is then sent the next day thanking them again, but, regrettably a position will not be made available and they are wished well in their future endeavors...or some such crap.
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jsstevens
On a related note, there has been a growing trend in my industry to have unpaid interns. I have steadfastly refused to have unpaid interns (although we've had quite a few paid interns over the years and have hired most of them on graduation. Many are still here, some after more than 5 years.)
If the work is worth doing, it's worth paying for, in my opinion.
John
If the work is worth doing, it's worth paying for, in my opinion.
John
Captain
Final Approach
Thank you.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
I see no reason why someone can't pay to fly an airplane.
Good on you, again, it's taking advantage of people. The Payday loan business is the most egregious business out there.
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Those folks prey on people who have very little other recourse and frequently don't really understand what they're signing up for. They really frost my cookies, so to speak.
John
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LanCA'r
Now here's the question (similar to my earlier one):
How / when do you distinguish between "bad" PTF/PFT and "good" hustle?
- Paid for 500 hrs right-seat time?
- Paid for 50 hrs left-seat training in mock-135/121 environment?
- Heard on Monday via airport grapevine/contacts about a good job they'd fit except the Operator needed [turbine/type/whatever]; showed up Friday with a shiny-new cert upgrade and 25 hours of time in that make/model?
- Eating ramen for 6 years while working "starter" aviation jobs?
They take desperate people and make it impossible for them to get ahead by any means that would be available to them, so the have to commit a crime to get out of the hole. Like I said, our financial system is the reason we are not evolving socially, it puts greedy people in charge of the economy. Who thinks that is a good idea?
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They take desperate people and make it impossible for them to get ahead by any means that would be available to them, so the have to commit a crime to get out of the hole. Like I said, our financial system is the reason we are not evolving socially, it puts greedy people in charge of the economy. Who thinks that is a good idea?
Fundamentally all systems require ethics on the part of the participants.
I still think the greatest strength of representative government coupled with periodic reelection is to reduce the damage any particular individual can do.
Anyway, I am an executive VP in a decidedly capitalistic company who endeavors mightily (along with our entire management team) to do the right thing by our customers and our employees. (Even making the employees owners, now.)
I get a little testy when people make sweeping generalizations about how all companies are only in it for money, greedy, etc. because we are not. And we're being quite successful even so.
John
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JoseCuervo
Where do you draw the line?
Is working for no wages, just the "compensation" of flight time acceptable?
Is being paid $8 an hour acceptable?
If some kid got a chance to sit right seat for a year, for free, in a jet, would you support it?
Is working for no wages, just the "compensation" of flight time acceptable?
Is being paid $8 an hour acceptable?
If some kid got a chance to sit right seat for a year, for free, in a jet, would you support it?
You're right, it's actually the same as anything, the 20% are the ones that cause the problem. However, when you commoditize money on its own accord, you provide that greedy 20% the tool they need to control and wreak havoc on society, and that is what we have had for 4000 years now and it is time for it to stop, or we don't survive as a species, it's as simple as that.
As long as we allow the greedy to hog all the resources, we will be limited to staying on Earth, and there is only one outcome, extinction.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I knew they were still around, but I didn't know that there were any still in the US these days. Most of the ads I've seen in the last couple years were for overseas stuff.
Also surprised to hear that Ameriflight has gone to PTF. They generally have a pretty good rep among pilots.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Again, Ameriflight has been doing this for years, thru the EagleJet program. Just nobody wanted to connect the dots, or ignored it. And again, its 95% or more foreign pilots taking part in the EagleJet scheme.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was under the impression that EagleJet was mostly impatient young American pilots who paid to fly right seat in Asia and Africa.
If that would get you in the door in Asia, that might be worth it.
RotorAndWing
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Rotor&Wing
Asia and Africa will not accept low time expats for the right seat. As they have plenty of locals to choose from. Pilot jobs in these regions are very high prestige and money for the locals.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Interesting. Not doubting you, but I could swear I saw an EagleJet ad two years ago advertising pay for right seat time in Asia/Africa.