People actually fall for PTF schemes?

James331

James331

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
20,309
Display Name
Display name:
James331
It's like a jackalope, I've heard about them but didn't think they existed in the wild....

So I ran into a guy last night flying for on Ameriflight, said he's a FO on the 99.... Looked into it and it turns out he is PAYING to fly right seat to log the hours (somehow) on a single pilot aircraft!!!

I read a few things online where it even said they'll kick the PTF dudes out if they need the extra weight for W&B :goofy:


How does anyone think that this is a good career move :dunno:

You just increase debt, have a obvious PTF stain on your logbook that any hiring person is going to see, annnd you shortchange yourself out of doing some of the most enjoyable flying you're going to do on the smaller aircraft, whilst getting PAID to build your hours and a solid foundation for the bigger stuff.

Can someone please tell me how any pilot, with a IQ above that of a common household pet, could think this PTF scheme is a good idea?
 
I know it was really common when I was going through flight training in Florida 20+ years ago. There was a few instructors buying right seat time in C-402. My instructor gave me a list of companies that would allow a newbie to buy right seat time. Everyone seemed to think buying flight time was the quick route to a regional.

I agree. I didn't get a pilot certificate just to pay to fly. I turned down every offer from a company that asked me to pay for training. This was before the new ATP requirements. Sure, not paying for training might have cost me a couple jobs, but so what? There were plenty more jobs that would pay a bonus to get pilots. Still are.

I took anything and everything that paid me to fly. Some jobs were a lot of fun, some were just terrible.

Every now and then I get a call from someone looking to pay for right seat time in my planes to build multi engine time. I can't fill the right seat because sometimes we get patients that fill up the weight part of the W&B. Usually the callers have ambitions to be a regional FO. I would love to take their money. $200/hr just to carry a warm body in the right seat?Maybe when we transition to the PC-12...:lol:

As far as hiring someone with PTF times.... I need 2500 total time and 1000 PIC and 500 multi. I probably would not hire a pilot with PTF times because I feel they are just time builders and are already looking to move on. I am looking for long term pilots.
 
You guys are harsh. Think about it if you were a crap employer looking for a pilot to abuse what better tell then PTF time?:lol:
 
Crazy - I didn't think these schemes were around anymore.

I sometimes encounter aspiring professional pilots that have done a surprisingly low amount of research into what they're attempting to do - especially the ones that are coming up through the ranks on someone else's (like Mommy and Daddy's) dime. These schemes prey on pilots like them:

"Come pay us thirty grand, and we'll put you in the right seat of a turboprop for 200 hours! That's only a 150 bucks an hour - the same as a 172! And just think, you get to wear this really cool uniform to impress girls at the bar! It's the deal of a lifetime!"

:)
 
Don't work for less than your worth. This definitely violates that rule.
 
You sure that he is a pay to play guy? What location was this?
 
I'm sure they give them some load about being able to log a 91 leg... I have heard stories of people flying for 135 outfits without a 135 rid and logging it as 91. Seems ridiculous but I bet it happens.
 
Engine said:
I'm sure they give them some load about being able to log a 91 leg... I have heard stories of people flying for 135 outfits without a 135 rid and logging it as 91. Seems ridiculous but I bet it happens.
Click to expand...

Not at ameriflight. They are fully checked to be SIC under 135
 
If it's non-rev it's 91.

Most 135 have the ability to play that wanna be game too, the better ones don't.

Also many companies won't count those hours and they are very easy to spot.


So they do it for lower takeoff mins... I'd wager there about 20 plus thousand other reasons too ;)

BEECH 99

HOURS PRICE TRAINING
100 $17,150 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check

250 $21,150 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check

500 $27,750 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check

750 $38,050 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check

1000 $46,850 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check

1250 $55,650 First Officer Experience, Airline Training & Line Check


Gotta love how they censored the ameriflight logo off the plane too

testimonial_Beech99.jpg

Form http://www.eaglejet.net/Turboprop.asp

Beech99.jpg

From http://www.eaglejet.net/Pricing.asp
 
Last edited:
KSCessnaDriver said:
Not at ameriflight. They are fully checked to be SIC under 135
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter to me if they're qualified 135 or not - are they paying to be there, or being paid?
 
warthog1984 said:
May be a dumb question:

How do you get that first big iron experience/rating if you don't pay for it in some way/shape/form?
Click to expand...

You work your way up, just like all the guys before you, just like any other industry.
 
warthog1984 said:
May be a dumb question:

How do you get that first big iron experience/rating if you don't pay for it in some way/shape/form?
Click to expand...

Not a dumb question at all, and I wish more people would ask. I went from instructing to flying Cessna 340s and 421s. One of those 340s turned into a Cheyenne II, and that job got me the turbine time to be qualified for my first jet job flying Citations. The Citation job was my 'break' - they typed me and combined the type with my ATP. That job led to bigger business jets (and more types), and after getting tired of the 135 game, I jumped ship to a national airline gig. From there I made the move to a legacy job, where I am now.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying my way is the best path, but while it's not an easy road to be a professional pilot, there are plenty of ways to get it done without paying some scumbag operator for the time. Especially today, where pretty much anyone with an ATP has their choice of regional gigs.
 
James331 said:
If it's non-rev it's 91.

Most 135 have the ability to play that wanna be game too, the better ones don't.
Click to expand...

91 or 135 leg, doesn't matter, they log SIC time the same either way. There are very few Americans in the program, mostly foreign nationals.

The better 135 ones don't? Clearly you don't know jack about Ameriflight and how they are the largest 135 cargo operator out there
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
91 or 135 leg, doesn't matter, they log SIC time the same either way. There are very few Americans in the program, mostly foreign nationals.

The better 135 ones don't? Clearly you don't know jack about Ameriflight and how they are the largest 135 cargo operator out there
Click to expand...

Clearly..... :rolleyes2:


After reading about their PTF scheme, I'd say I know enough to stay away from anything to do with that company. Besides I wouldn't be in the market to take the paycut and QOL downgrade :wink2:


As for "logging" SIC/PIC/WTF time, doesn't matter how you log it, no operator worth flying for is going count those hours towards their minumums, and that's presuming they don't just round file the CV right off the bat.
 
If you're fully qualified 135 SIC's then whats the harm? Their Op Spec probably requires two pilots and they're probably allowed to fly a leg every now and then. Plenty of operators do that.
 
Engine said:
If you're fully qualified 135 SIC's then whats the harm? Their Op Spec probably requires two pilots and they're probably allowed to fly a leg every now and then. Plenty of operators do that.
Click to expand...

Correct, as long as they have the training and required check (135.293) and the OpSpecs call for a two crew, everything is fine.

James331 said:
As for "logging" SIC/PIC/WTF time, doesn't matter how you log it, no operator worth flying for is going count those hours towards their minumums, and that's presuming they don't just round file the CV right off the bat.
Click to expand...

Really? So a guy flies and logs time legally (135.293) and a prospective employer will ****can their application because they flew for a particular operator? :rolleyes2:

I've known a few of the Ameriflight pilots throughout the years, many have gone on to have very nice careers.
 
Last edited:
Engine said:
If you're fully qualified 135 SIC's then whats the harm? Their Op Spec probably requires two pilots and they're probably allowed to fly a leg every now and then. Plenty of operators do that.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that.

Most 135 SICs I've seen are paid by the company for flight hours, they DONT have to pay the company for flight hours.

Also most 135s I've seen won't take any fresh ink wet MEL IFR CPL, just as long as his $17,000-$50,000 check clears their bank.
 
From Eagle Jet

What are the rules that allow me to log SIC time in a multiengine turboprop Part 135 aircraft?

Low time first officers who need to log more pilot in command (PIC) time toward the ATP requirement of 250 hours of PIC time have an option available to them for logging PIC time from the right seat.

FAR 61.51(e) says, in part, that a commercial pilot "may log pilot in command flight time for flights...when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated," or "when the pilot...acts as pilot command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."

FAR 61.51(e) also permits logging PIC time from the right seat "when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate...;
The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program;
The supervising pilot in command holds ... (2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, and attests to the certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number."
Click to expand...


What are the requirements in order to join one of Eagle Jet International’s airline first officer programs?

Joining an executive jet, turboprop or multi program requires to hold a current FAA commercial pilot license with instrument and multiengine ratings and a second class medical. No minimum amount of flight time is required for most of our first officer programs. It is important to be current flying instruments prior to the first day of class. In case you have not flown instruments recently, one of the best and most economical ways to get your instrument proficiency back is to rent a basic flight school simulator at your local airport and have a CFII conduct one or more review sessions in the simulator, getting you up to the point that you feel confident again. The airline with which you will train will teach you everything you need to know about its flight operations and the transport aircraft you will fly but will not make any review of basic instrument procedures that you are supposed to have acquired during your initial commercial and instrument pilot training. Our airline programs are designed for low time pilots coming out of a flight school with no previous turbine or airline experience. For this reason, the normal training duration is 4 to 6 weeks.
Click to expand...
 
Not that I am an expert but I have never seen anything in the reg that says they can't pay the company to fly.

Clearly the company doesn't need these guys to operate but I am sure it helps their bottom line by the revenue it generates and it might even cut down on insurance a bit.

Most 135's I have seen also pay their pilots. But then again that is a big check. Sad but the truth.

I can understand Dr. House being up this late on the other side of the world but it seems you James are a fellow New Yorker. This is about the end of my endurance..good night folks!
 
James331 said:
It's like a jackalope, I've heard about them but didn't think they existed in the wild....

So I ran into a guy last night flying for on Ameriflight, said he's a FO on the 99.... Looked into it and it turns out he is PAYING to fly right seat to log the hours (somehow) on a single pilot aircraft!!!

I read a few things online where it even said they'll kick the PTF dudes out if they need the extra weight for W&B :goofy:


How does anyone think that this is a good career move :dunno:

You just increase debt, have a obvious PTF stain on your logbook that any hiring person is going to see, annnd you shortchange yourself out of doing some of the most enjoyable flying you're going to do on the smaller aircraft, whilst getting PAID to build your hours and a solid foundation for the bigger stuff.

Can someone please tell me how any pilot, with a IQ above that of a common household pet, could think this PTF scheme is a good idea?
Click to expand...

20 some years ago, everything was PTF or PFT (Pay For Training). I remember Flight Safety contracted with a bunch of commuters and put together a big pool for them to select from and interview. If you passed the interview you payed like $12,000 for your training, and this was the better end of the industry. Others like Gulfstream here in Ft Lauderdale were doing the model you're talking about, I believe they originated it. ComAir had their whole thing going and both of those were more expensive than the Flight Safety route.

It's a great idea, for the airline, sucks for the pilots, but that's capitalism and the Pilot unions hard at work.
 
James331 said:
I'm not sure about that.

Most 135 SICs I've seen are paid by the company for flight hours, they DONT have to pay the company for flight hours.

Also most 135s I've seen won't take any fresh ink wet MEL IFR CPL, just as long as his $17,000-$50,000 check clears their bank.
Click to expand...

You may have found the one American pilot who is in the Eaglejet program. It's a majority (and I'd bet 90% or more) foreign nationals, either sponsored by a foreign airline or trying to get time to get on a foreign airline. And yes, they are wet commercial certificate holders, but I'd rather them get time in a turboprop doing something versus going home and flying a 737 from day 1.
 
James331 said:
Clearly..... :rolleyes2:


After reading about their PTF scheme, I'd say I know enough to stay away from anything to do with that company. Besides I wouldn't be in the market to take the paycut and QOL downgrade :wink2:


As for "logging" SIC/PIC/WTF time, doesn't matter how you log it, no operator worth flying for is going count those hours towards their minumums, and that's presuming they don't just round file the CV right off the bat.
Click to expand...

No operator is going to count it? I can count at least 3 airlines in Asia that send their guys to the program, at which point they go home and get put into heavy iron. So you can take your "no operator" statement and stuff it.

And in regards to QoL/pay, whatever. You can make more other places, I'll say that. Ameriflight is a get your time, get out type place for 75% of the pilots.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No operator is going to count it? I can count at least 3 airlines in Asia that send their guys to the program, at which point they go home and get put into heavy iron. So you can take your "no operator" statement and stuff it.
Click to expand...

No operator in North America.
 
James331 said:
No operator in North America.
Click to expand...

Ah the moving goalpost technique. Good plan. That said, most 121 carriers probably have PFT guys at them right now, considering how prominent Comair and Gulfstream were 15 years ago.
 
Moving goal posts??

Dude...the name of this site is...

Pilots of AMERICA

Most topics have to do with flying in America.

Not sure how many PTF idiots are flying for US 121s with the rule change, also plenty if upcoming CFIs, DZ pilots, pipeline, etc guys are chomping at the bit to fly for a airline anyways.


Seems I hit a nerve, you go to some fancy overpriced aviation college, PTF your way to Ameriflght or something :dunno:
 
Frustration aside, I do know a decent amount of PTF guys that have gone to proper 121 operations. Some folks are willing to accept it.

I think it comes down to a personal ethical stance. Which you and I seem to agree on James. PTF is what you do from Private through Commercial and occasionally to CFI, but anything after that is...well not respectable by my standards. I would not feel right doing that.
 
Silly me. I was paid while in training to fly a B-99.

It appears I may be missing something. I can get somewhere around $170 per flight hour by hauling a warm body in the right seat? I need to learn more about this.
 
I've actually recently accepted 'employment' with a cargo carrier. They fly L-1011's and B-747's. Due to the later stage of my career and the need to accelerate my career goals I've signed up for the plan to acquire 1,000 hours in the right seat of the L-1011 the first year and then 500 hours in the left seat of both planes the next year.

Upfront I pay them $85,000 and then they pay me $9 per flight hour back. After a couple years I should be able to apply to FedEx or UPS or even go full time in the B-747 making $18 per flight hour.

The training is the down side. I had to pay for initial training as well as provide my own books and a simulator. CAE was able to sell me a refurb sim from Europe on the cheap ($1.9M) plus shipping. I'm hopeful this will finally be enough to put me over the top and be competitive for a dream flying job.

If it doesn't work out I might just purchase FedEx or UPS and hire myself. I could probably secure financing to buy either based on guaranteed future revenue of myself paying to work there.

Ain't aviation grand?
 
Captain said:
I've actually recently accepted 'employment' with a cargo carrier. They fly L-1011's and B-747's. Due to the later stage of my career and the need to accelerate my career goals I've signed up for the plan to acquire 1,000 hours in the right seat of the L-1011 the first year and then 500 hours in the left seat of both planes the next year.

Upfront I pay them $85,000 and then they pay me $9 per flight hour back. After a couple years I should be able to apply to FedEx or UPS or even go full time in the B-747 making $18 per flight hour.

The training is the down side. I had to pay for initial training as well as provide my own books and a simulator. CAE was able to sell me a refurb sim from Europe on the cheap ($1.9M) plus shipping. I'm hopeful this will finally be enough to put me over the top and be competitive for a dream flying job.

If it doesn't work out I might just purchase FedEx or UPS and hire myself. I could probably secure financing to buy either based on guaranteed future revenue of myself paying to work there.

Ain't aviation grand?
Click to expand...
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
James331 said:
Seems I hit a nerve, you go to some fancy overpriced aviation college, PTF your way to Ameriflght or something :dunno:
Click to expand...

No, but I don't like people dragging a company thru the mud when they don't know jack about what they are talking about. AMF is just doing the smart business thing, getting some money from Eagle to put the guys in the seat, which does have a mutually beneficial deal.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating PFT/PFJ, but I'm saying that a company would be doing a disservice to it's shareholders to not find ways to make more money.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No, but I don't like people dragging a company thru the mud when they don't know jack about what they are talking about. AMF is just doing the smart business thing, getting some money from Eagle to put the guys in the seat, which does have a mutually beneficial deal.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating PFT/PFJ, but I'm saying that a company would be doing a disservice to it's shareholders to not find ways to make more money.
Click to expand...

You're right! Know what would make those share holders some cash? When people buy plane tickets just put 'em on a bus. They could also deduct insurance premiums for employees...and stay with me here...NOT actually purchase insurance. If they make a claim or something just, ya know, fire them. What are they gonna do? Sue? Doubt it, they don't have money for lawyers since they pay the company to work.

I'll bet there's all sorts of ways to make those shareholders money since we're throwing ethics out the window. God bless America!
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No, but I don't like people dragging a company thru the mud when they don't know jack about what they are talking about. AMF is just doing the smart business thing, getting some money from Eagle to put the guys in the seat, which does have a mutually beneficial deal.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating PFT/PFJ, but I'm saying that a company would be doing a disservice to it's shareholders to not find ways to make more money.
Click to expand...

Welcome to PoA. ;) :D
 
Captain said:
You're right! Know what would make those share holders some cash? When people buy plane tickets just put 'em on a bus. They could also deduct insurance premiums for employees...and stay with me here...NOT actually purchase insurance. If they make a claim or something just, ya know, fire them. What are they gonna do? Sue? Doubt it, they don't have money for lawyers since they pay the company to work.

I'll bet there's all sorts of ways to make those shareholders money since we're throwing ethics out the window. God bless America!
Click to expand...

We all know that airlines (and smaller carriers) only go into business and run their business to employ a pilot group. The most critical part of any business (carrier) is to provide pilot jobs, new aircraft, excellent pay and working conditions for said pilots and of course do everything possible to ensure quick upgrades for the pilots.

The shareholder? Well, they just need to chill out and recognize what the mission truly is.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes2: :D :rofl:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top