Penn State Child Sex Abuse Scandal

[Everskyward]

you can put me on the "I just don't get it" side of the street.

Me too if you're talking about sports, and not just college sports. I don't generally watch any of them and I certainly don't get fired up about who wins or loses. I can see how sports would be interesting if you are a participant or you know a participant personally, but I doubt that is usually the case. People think they "know" the participants but it's only because of the media machine. When the news broke I was left wondering, "Who is Joe Paterno? His name is slightly familiar, but..."

 

[timwinters]

Yeah, I enjoy playing many sports, and played them all in high school, but I can't sit and watch others do it.

Same goes w/ NASCAR. Would I love to drive 200mph+ around the track? Hell yeah!
But I'd be bored after 3 or 4 laps or so and I certainly can't watch someone else do it a couple hundred times.

EDIT: just to be clear, the above is not meant to cast judgment on anyone or anything. I'm sure most of those sports and NASCAR fans don't "get it" when it comes to the attraction of aviation either.

 

[Anthony]

Yeah, I enjoy playing many sports, and played them all in high school, but I can't sit and watch others do it.

Same goes w/ NASCAR. Would I love to drive 200mph+ around the track? Hell yeah!
But I'd be bored after 3 or 4 laps or so and I certainly can't watch someone else do it a couple hundred times.

This is why most sporting events today are just big parties. Newer stadiums are also designed to be able to do other stuff, (eat, drink, talk, buy, etc) with the game as a background. And how about tailgate parties? I see a lot of people just staying in the parking lot drinking at games. Its just another excuse to eat and drink, not that there's anyting wrong with that, lol.

 

[SCCutler]

I know one thing: if you are a student at a university at which a former member of the football coaching staff is accused of being a pedophile, and the head coach is fired as a result of the controversy, there is only one remedy that makes sense:

Destroy a TV news truck.

Any questions?

 

[ajstoner21]

I know one thing: if you are a student at a university at which a former member of the football coaching staff is accused of being a pedophile, and the head coach is fired as a result of the controversy, there is only one remedy that makes sense:

Destroy a TV news truck.

Any questions?

I went to Penn State, and I'll be the first to say.... I think most the male students that go there are d**** bags.... OBVIOUSLY that was the only answer...

 

[MSPAviator]

Never heard of the guy, couldn't care less.

 

[Geico266]

I know one thing: if you are a student at a university at which a former member of the football coaching staff is accused of being a pedophile, and the head coach is fired as a result of the controversy, there is only one remedy that makes sense:

Destroy a TV news truck.

Any questions?

It is amazing what logic comes out of a bottle.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What's the proper protocol for notifying authorities? Call 911?

Yes.

Is something that happened yesterday an emergency? Call the non-emergency number? Call child protective services? Who should do it, the witness, the head coach or the AD?

Yesterday? On the spot would be the appropriate response. Step in. Right away. Otherwise you are, for all practical purposes, an accomplice.

Does any college football program have a legal adviser on staff? Mine didn't. If not, should PSU legal counsel know of the problem and be asked for input? If so, when? Before or after the call is made to whomever you're supposed to call?

You would consult your legal adviser before calling 911 when you see a serious crime in progress? Really?

I'm not impressed.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

...

You would consult your legal adviser before calling 911 when you see a serious crime in progress? Really?

....

It's worth remembering that the only one who [allegedly] had any evidence of any crime was the asst. coach. If the actual witness is unwilling to contact the appropriate authority, you can bet that I, as the third-party he might consult, am going to have reservations about contacting that same authority about a crime that I have absolutely no knowledge of. Something that I would definitely be concerned about would be the ramifications to me if the whole thing turns out to be some kind of hoax, vendetta, mistake, whatever.

And, depending on the amount of time that passed, rather than reporting any crime, the law has an absurd result of putting the asst. in a position where he has a very strong incentive to take the 5th, even if investigators only wanted to talk to him regarding investigation of the other assistant coach (Sandusky?).

As in, an investigator wants to interview a couple of weeks after an event is witnessed, the witness is suddenly implicated for not timely reporting something. Fearing prosecution, he asserts a constitutional right to keep his cakehole shut. Thus preventing prosecution of the actual abuser.

 

[wabower]

You would consult your legal adviser before calling 911 when you see a serious crime in progress? Really?

I'm not impressed.

Nor am I impressed with your reading comprehension. So far nobody but you thinks Joe saw anything.

 

[wabower]

When I read that Paterno's testimony wasn't included in the report and that he wasn't implicated, I decided to wait until he was on record before forming an opinion about his actions.

I have no doubt that Paterno was a very influential voice at Penn State, but to say he called all the shots on campus is ridiculous.

What was the specific subject of Joe's reference about "doing more?" Was it calling the cops or instructing the assistant to do so? Or was it related to Sandusky's behavior and how he might have taken steps to limit Sandusky's access to kids? Was it doing more to insure the AD followed up? Attempting to attribute his comments to any particular part of this ugly deal is nothing more than one more in a series of ready-fire-aim routines.

I'd be curious of your opinion after you read the extensive grand jury report which is readily available on the net...and, true, the coach probably reports to the AD on the organizational chart, but you have to factor in the equation in this situation that Paterno is well known to have called all the shots on campus...not to mention that Paterno already knew of the 98 shower incident with Sandusky when the 2002 incident came up...this will all get much worse than better, esp. when the civil law suits shed more light on the situation

...if Paterno didn't show a lack of "moral courage" I'm at a loss of words of how else to describe his conduct...from Paterno's own testimony he was presented with info from his graduate assistant (a former QB no less that started for Paterno, team captain as I recall) that Sandusky was in the shower with a ten year old doing something inappropriate of a sexual nature...and what does Paterno do--he makes a call to the AD, has a meeting, and then goes about his business...and now Paterno says with "hindsight" he could have done more...

 

[alaskaflyer]

What's your point? Breaking the law, and having a record is the same as the above? It is a real issue, and will knock you out of the possibility of getting hired. But as a LEO, that's OK to you?

One more thing, while I have a lot more than a quater acre, I think some do consider that a "backyard paradise", or are you just taking a shot at the American dream?

As to the second, no, just throwing out silly examples.

As for the first, I'm simply reminding that an employer can make their hiring decisions on things much more arbitrary than reputation and criminal record. I suppose I can sympathize with someone who has an arrest record who was actually innocent (but on the other hand there are opportunities for expungement of almost everything in that case) but I can't waste too many tears for someone who loses employment opportunities because they were stupid/unwise or downright dangerous/predatory.

That's the theoretical.

As to Paterno or his 20-something-at-the-time GA, they hold positions above and beyond "employee." They are both educators and have the privilege of a position so special, so uncommon, that they can and should be fired for so much as an ill-timed fart. With the circumstances surrounding this embarrassment? Thank you for your service buh-bye.

 

[Rugbydude]

When I read that Paterno's testimony wasn't included in the report and that he wasn't implicated, I decided to wait until he was on record before forming an opinion about his actions.

I have no doubt that Paterno was a very influential voice at Penn State, but to say he called all the shots on campus is ridiculous.

What was the specific subject of Joe's reference about "doing more?" Was it calling the cops or instructing the assistant to do so? Or was it related to Sandusky's behavior and how he might have taken steps to limit Sandusky's access to kids? Was it doing more to insure the AD followed up? Attempting to attribute his comments to any particular part of this ugly deal is nothing more than one more in a series of ready-fire-aim routines.

actually, Paterno did give testimony and it is included in the Grand Juries findings of fact...basically, as a minimum Paterno's testimony establishes that he reported to his "superiors" that the witness told him something of a "sexual" nature too place between Sandusky and the young boy in the football showers...

...we will learn more during the civil proceedings and potentially in future criminal proceedings on what exactly the witness told Paterno and then what exactly Paterno told the A.D....but again, it is really just a matter of degree because as a minimum, and esp. based on Paterno's knowledge of Sandusky's past conduct, Paterno was told of the criminal act in the shower and then did just the bare minimum that was required by law ... that is what Paterno testified to...it will be interesting to see also what was discussed with Paterno after the A.D. and V.P. met with the graduate assistant and were told of the details graphically for certain according to the findings of fact...keep in mind that the A.D. and V.P. are charged with perjury for minimizing these facts...

...to minimize Paterno's influence on campus is an uphill battle...it has been said that he was influential in hiring his "man" -also a former Q.B. on the team-to become the A.D. ... the part of "doing more" is that Paterno should have followed up and ensured law enforcement became involved...

...pls go ahead and read the report and then let us know if based on your experience that Paterno did enough

 

[DavidWhite]

 

[wabower]

With all the attention being directed to this saga, I'm pretty sure the "rest of the story" will be forthcoming, so I'm not planning to rehash the GJ material. As has already been noted, it contains some gratuitous and subjective statements regarding Paterno's actions along with the "woulda-coulda-shoulda" that is usually much easier for the second-guessers but could have been much more difficult to discern at the time of the alleged event.

Every aspect of this tragedy and the actions (or inactions) of the various parties can be picked apart, but it's all speculation until the facts are known and analyzed. For example, if Joe didn't advise the AD of the assistant's report of the assault until the next day, why did he wait? What did he do during the interim? Did he call Sandusky? His lawyer? His clergyman? His agent? A counselor?

Who (if anyone) did he talk to about the event prior to informing the AD? Was he coming off of a bad season? Was he under pressure by PSU or the alums to retire? Did he think this event that was committed by his former staff member would the the death knell for his job? Was he hiding something, or was there a legitimate reason for waiting?

Or was the delay attributable to ignorance? Lack of compassion? Failure to comprehend the severity of the crime? Fear? Embarrasment? Which, if any, of those motives might have contributed to his alleged "failure to do more" even though he could have easily assumed that he had done what he was supposed to do, thought he had handled it properly and no further action on his part was required or would be beneficial.

I obviously don't have the answers, but hope they (and many others) come to light.

actually, Paterno did give testimony and it is included in the Grand Juries findings of fact...basically, as a minimum Paterno's testimony establishes that he reported to his "superiors" that the witness told him something of a "sexual" nature too place between Sandusky and the young boy in the football showers...

...we will learn more during the civil proceedings and potentially in future criminal proceedings on what exactly the witness told Paterno and then what exactly Paterno told the A.D....but again, it is really just a matter of degree because as a minimum, and esp. based on Paterno's knowledge of Sandusky's past conduct, Paterno was told of the criminal act in the shower and then did just the bare minimum that was required by law ... that is what Paterno testified to...it will be interesting to see also what was discussed with Paterno after the A.D. and V.P. met with the graduate assistant and were told of the details graphically for certain according to the findings of fact...keep in mind that the A.D. and V.P. are charged with perjury for minimizing these facts...

...to minimize Paterno's influence on campus is an uphill battle...it has been said that he was influential in hiring his "man" -also a former Q.B. on the team-to become the A.D. ... the part of "doing more" is that Paterno should have followed up and ensured law enforcement became involved...

...pls go ahead and read the report and then let us know if based on your experience that Paterno did enough

 

[TMetzinger]

The "news" of the event as it travelled up the chain reminds me of this gem from when I first started working.

In the beginning was the Plan.
And then came the Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form.
And the Plan was without substance.
And darkness was upon the face of the workers.
And they spoke among themselves, saying, "It is a crock of ****, and it stinks."
And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pail of dung, and we can't live with the smell."
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers, saying "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."
And the Managers went unto their Directors, saying "It is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength."
And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying to one another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."
And the Directores went to the Vice Presidents, saying unto them, "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."
And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor of the company with powerful effects."
And the President looked upon the Plan and saw that it was good.
And the Plan became Policy.
And that is how **** happens.

 

[denverpilot]

After having just read the whole thread, my only thought is...

What a screwed up society we live in where football coaches get statues and this much attention and power in the first place. I can think of far better people to erect statues to, if you're into that sort of idolatry. (I think a few were probably killed in Afghanistan in the last couple of weeks, just as one example. Especially so close to Veteran's Day which got virtually zero media coverage beneath the noise of this Bravo Sierra.)

I know college sports and the money involved surely does help some athletes out of poverty stricken life, and may even inspire some to having better values than they started with. Some even get an education.

But we've gone way off the deep end when it comes to the levels of corruption and disgusting behavior by far too many people involved in college and professional sports... all driven by rediculous fan-bases that need to get a life and wickedly high amounts of money that never seem to significantly impact the quality of education at the institutions receiving it.

They do have nice big shiny stadiums though. So did Rome during the Roman Empire.

It's one thing to root for your home atheletics teams in passing while you accomplish something on your own.

It's quite another to think their accomplishments are yours.

Far too many people fall into the latter category.

Nobody should be supporting an athletic organization that allowed any of this to happen on their watch. Fire 'em all. It shouldn't even be a tough decision.

Old fart "beloved" head coach included... Who cares? It's a game.

You were a mentor to these young people and you allowed a staffer to molest them without raising holy hell? You're fired.

Go away and don't come back. Buh-bye. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[dmccormack]

Old fart "beloved" head coach included... Who cares? It's a game.

You were a mentor to these young people and you allowed a staffer to molest them without raising holy hell? You're fired.

Go away and don't come back. Buh-bye. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Joe Paterno had a tremendous reputation as a mentor, leader, and role model for tens of thousands of PSU alumni over nearly 50 years.

I'm not a PSU alumnus -- my college had 1200 students and a soccer team. I had certain professors for two classes over 2.5 years, but each had a significant impact on my approach to life, academics, reading, and writing.

Some people affect us significantly when we are young -- for good or for ill -- in ways that cannot be measured (and often all out of proportion to the total time) .

Joe Paterno was such for many of my colleagues who are PSU grads. None played football, and most are bitterly dissappointed at this sordid end for a great old school personality who did not do the right thing in this instance.

So while there may be a need to toss out flippant remarks, the reality is this is a sad, sad tale with no winners -- only losers.

 

[timwinters]

Dan,

I don't view Nate's commentary as flippant at all. It was pretty spot on actually.

Your response, though, appears to be right out of Herman Cane's playbook "there are thousands of women I haven't harassed".

By the way, I can think of a few billion that I haven't harassed.

 

[wabower]

What if the perp wasn't a staffer, you didn't know about it or condone it and you did what you thought you were supposed to do and were then exonerated by a grand jury that investigated the event?

Are you willing to be held to those same standards if somebody who worked for you turns out to be a pervert?

After having just read the whole thread, my only thought is...

What a screwed up society we live in where football coaches get statues and this much attention and power in the first place. I can think of far better people to erect statues to, if you're into that sort of idolatry. (I think a few were probably killed in Afghanistan in the last couple of weeks, just as one example. Especially so close to Veteran's Day which got virtually zero media coverage beneath the noise of this Bravo Sierra.)

I know college sports and the money involved surely does help some athletes out of poverty stricken life, and may even inspire some to having better values than they started with. Some even get an education.

But we've gone way off the deep end when it comes to the levels of corruption and disgusting behavior by far too many people involved in college and professional sports... all driven by rediculous fan-bases that need to get a life and wickedly high amounts of money that never seem to significantly impact the quality of education at the institutions receiving it.

They do have nice big shiny stadiums though. So did Rome during the Roman Empire.

It's one thing to root for your home atheletics teams in passing while you accomplish something on your own.

It's quite another to think their accomplishments are yours.

Far too many people fall into the latter category.

Nobody should be supporting an athletic organization that allowed any of this to happen on their watch. Fire 'em all. It shouldn't even be a tough decision.

Old fart "beloved" head coach included... Who cares? It's a game.

You were a mentor to these young people and you allowed a staffer to molest them without raising holy hell? You're fired.

Go away and don't come back. Buh-bye. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[wabower]

How did the Penn State game on that day turn out? Do they still think it was a good decision? Will their return chant be WE'RE STILL MARRIED, WE'RE STILL MARRIED?

I have longtime friends that both went to Penn State and are HUGE Penn State football fans. They even missed my first wedding due to a Penn State game. I think I'll call them, and chant.....WE ARE PENN STATE, WE ARE PENN STATE.

Losers.

 

[Anthony]

How did the Penn State game on that day turn out? Do they still think it was a good decision? Will their return chant be WE'RE STILL MARRIED, WE'RE STILL MARRIED?

Yeah, they're still married. But that was three or four wives ago for me.

 

[Rugbydude]

What if the perp wasn't a staffer, you didn't know about it or condone it and you did what you thought you were supposed to do and were then exonerated by a grand jury that investigated the event?

Are you willing to be held to those same standards if somebody who worked for you turns out to be a pervert?

"you did what you thought you were supposed to do" ... I suspect Paterno knew he was supposed to do more ... the question will become why he didn't ... this whole mess is a lesson in failed leadership that ought to be studied carefully...

 

[wabower]

Different strokes for different folks. I got a decent education that would have otherwise been tough to afford by playing and coaching college football. Met some standout people along the way, had to associate with a few who were less than stellar in many ways.

College football is a huge financial stimulus to many universities. In most big schools, the football program funds the entire athletic department and (directly or indirectly) influences the contributions of big bucks to the academic and research budgets at the schools. Whether you like it or not, people like to be associated with winners. They always have and they always will.

The corruption, cheating, deception, abuse and other scandalous activities are well-known and chronicled on an ongoing basis. If you don't like that stuff, the sports page is biodegradable.

OTOH, some people like to travel the world and take pictures. They think traveling is broadening and really enjoy looking at the pictures and sharing them with others. Other people think it's a waste of time and money, and that the costs of such foolishness should be invested or donated to medical research. YMMV

Penn state or football? I pretty much can't stand football. I can think of few things that are more of a waste of time. I've been in boxes/suites even and couldn't begin to tell you what the fuss is about. Super bowl is all about food/beer/socializing. The end.

Ps. Not ignoring the content of the thread. What happened was heinous (and that's putting it mildly).

 

[timwinters]

Different strokes for different folks. I got a decent education that would have otherwise been tough to afford by playing and coaching college football.

I wondered why you've been taking the stance on this that you have. Now I understand.

 

[wabower]

How would you define that stance? Three-point or up-right? It depends on whether we called a blitz or a cover-2.

I wondered why you've been taking the stance on this that you have. Now I understand.

 

[bbchien]

Doesn't matter. Joe had to go as a matter of liability to the current Univ. administration. So did the President, who would have been the "cover-up" guy....

 

[denverpilot]

What if the perp wasn't a staffer, you didn't know about it or condone it and you did what you thought you were supposed to do and were then exonerated by a grand jury that investigated the event?

Are you willing to be held to those same standards if somebody who worked for you turns out to be a pervert?

Wasn't a staffer but works for me? :shrug: I don't know about it? :shrug:

I don't know what you're asking here. What are you asking?

No one can report something they don't know about to the police.

The issue of whether or not they work for me is moot. Could be a stranger for all I care.

My personal policy is that if there's reports or evidence of abuse and I'm aware of it, the cops are called.

And my staff would know that was my policy. Up-front. They would also be instructed to do the same. In writing.

This is basic employee handbook stuff for any organization that works with young people.

You just don't screw around with this stuff.

So the answer is, yes. Those are my standards. You can hold me to them.

We recently had an abuse case here in the local news where neighbors befriended a young boy. They ultimately realized by his seemingly "strange" statements like, "No I don't want to stay for dinner, I already ate once today," that he'd been abused for so many years he thought it was normal.

The neighbors called the cops. The parents are facing charges. The kid is now eating three squares a day.

Those people deserve a statue in their name far more than any football coach.

 

[dmccormack]

Dan,

I don't view Nate's commentary as flippant at all. It was pretty spot on actually.

Your response, though, appears to be right out of Herman Cane's playbook "there are thousands of women I haven't harassed".

By the way, I can think of a few billion that I haven't harassed.

Sorry, but that has to be the most Time / Newsweek / USA Today -worthy response I've seen to a post in a long, long time.

 

[timwinters]

Sorry, but that has to be the most Time / Newsweek / USA Today -worthy response I've seen to a post in a long, long time.

Thanks, Dan, I'll take that as a compliment since I really don't think that any of those publications would take the official stance of defending an enabler of a child molester.

 

[dmccormack]

Thanks, Dan, I'll take that as a compliment since I really don't think that any of those publications wouldn't take the official stance of defending an enabler of a child molester.

You shouldn't take it as a compliment.

You should recognize that simplistic, reductionist, labelling is silly, infantile, and beneath intelligent discourse.

 

[Geico266]

Please remember this is not the Spin Zone for a reason. Please do not make this thread go there.

 

[wabower]

Doesn't matter. Joe had to go as a matter of liability to the current Univ. administration. So did the President, who would have been the "cover-up" guy....

During the press conference after the trustee meeting, the spokesman made it clear that they didn't have all the facts but were proceeding with what they thought was in the best interest of the university. IOW, they were throwing Joe under the bus and moving forward without him.

When watching the old westerns, I was always interested to see how the members of the lynch mobs were made to look like total idiots when they were confronted by M. Dillon and Chester in front of the jail. Little did I realize that the get-a-rope mentality is still the same as it was before Dodge City got indoor plumbing.

 

[Geico266]

During the press conference after the trustee meeting, the spokesman made it clear that they didn't have all the facts but were proceeding with what they thought was in the best interest of the university. IOW, they were throwing Joe under the bus and moving forward without him.

When watching the old westerns, I was always interested to see how the members of the lynch mobs were made to look like total idiots when they were confronted by M. Dillon and Chester in front of the jail. Little did I realize that the get-a-rope mentality is still the same as it was before Dodge City got indoor plumbing.

You do realize Gun Smoke was a fantasy TV show created in Hollywood right?

The reality is men using children for sexual gradification and those who allowed it to happen, on school grounds, for a decade.

As the facts come out there will be only one person with egg on his face.

 

[wabower]

As the facts come out there will be only one person with egg on his face.

The same mentality was present during the Duke scandal. How did that one turn out?

In any event, the facts should have been known prior to rather than after the trustees took action. Many other methods (administrative leave, etc.) are available for handling similar situations and are routinely used by law enforcement agencies and private-sector ogranizations.

 

[Geico266]

The same mentality was present during the Duke scandal. How did that one turn out?

In any event, the facts should have been known prior to rather than after the trustees took action. Many other methods (administrative leave, etc.) are available for handling similar situations and are routinely used by law enforcement agencies and private-sector ogranizations.

There was no grand jury report in the Duke case. Only a single accuser that was a drug using stripper looking to cash in. I doubt the 10 year old boy wanted to be raped to collect money.

 

[wabower]

There was no grand jury report in the Duke case. Only a single accuser that was a drug using stripper looking to cash in. I doubt the 10 year old boy wanted to be raped to collect money.

Pardon the hell out of me, I didn't realize Joe was found guilty by the GJ.

Are you posting in your individual capacity or as the official spokesman for the Guilty Until Found Innocent Society?

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

There was no grand jury report in the Duke case. Only a single accuser that was a drug using stripper looking to cash in. I doubt the 10 year old boy wanted to be raped to collect money.

Uhhhh...do you have any idea of how a grand jury works?

I mean, really? You're using a grand jury report as indicative of a crime?

 

[dmccormack]

Uhhhh...do you have any idea of how a grand jury works?

It doesn't matter -- can't you see that??

 

[Geico266]

Pardon the hell out of me, I didn't realize Joe was found guilty by the GJ.

Are you posting in your individual capacity or as the official spokesman for the Guilty Until Found Innocent Society?

Uhhhh...do you have any idea of how a grand jury works?

I mean, really? You're using a grand jury report as indicative of a crime?

It doesn't matter -- can't you see that??

So it is all of your contentions that a 10 year old was raped by Sandusky ( we have an eye witness) so he could sue the university?