Pattern Entry

I didn't really read all these posts. I was taught to cross midfield at 500ft above pattern and enter downwind from there.
 
I use the midfield crossing at TPA +500ft or just enter on a 45 if I am on the downwind side . I also announce my intentions finishing up the announcement with "any other traffic you have been advised"
 
pookies said:
I didn't really read all these posts. I was taught to cross midfield at 500ft above pattern and enter downwind from there.
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When you do that you leave the pattern and then reenter on the 45° to downwind I hope. You should never descend into the traffic pattern.
 
JRitt said:
I thought that was obvious. :yes:
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Unfortunately, given the way that "any traffic in the area..." thing grew like a malevolent cancer on the CTAF's, you never can tell who's going to pick up on it and start using it.:eek:
 
Ron Levy said:
Bruce Landsburg and I have gone round and round on this one before. I remain convinced that this entry compromises safety since it puts the mid-field crossing aircraft belly-to-belly with traffic on the 45 entry or in the closed pattern coming downwind from crosswind.
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Ron,
How can it be much better to perform a 225-degree descending turn onto a 45-degree pattern entry vector with airplanes joining that 45-degree vector from almost all angles? It would seem that you are belly up to a much wider path of planes and descending into them as well.

I have seen lots of emotional answers to this, but am looking for a thoughtful answer if you have one. Essentially if I look at the risks, this seems riskier than the midfield entry at TPA. My bail out on the midfield is to turn upwind and I'm not descending belly up in a 225-degree turn.

phil

PS If you think this is a dumb question, then ignore it.
 
pcorman said:
How can it be much better to perform a 225-degree descending turn onto a 45-degree pattern entry vector with airplanes joining that 45-degree vector from almost all angles?
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It isn't, and I don't advocate it. If you're going to overfly the field and come back on the 45, I recommend crossing the field at least 500 above the highest TPA (there may be one or even two TPA's above the "standard" light plane TPA), and then completing the turnaround and descent to your TPA well clear of the pattern -- at least three miles away.

My bail out on the midfield is to turn upwind and I'm not descending belly up in a 225-degree turn.
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That's one way to do it, but be very sure nobody's coming up the upwind or climbing into you off the runway, and I still prefer the crosswind entry (the real crosswind -- about 3/4 mile beyond the departure end of the runway) when arriving from the non-pattern side.
 
Ron Levy said:
It isn't, and I don't advocate it. If you're going to overfly the field and come back on the 45, I recommend crossing the field at least 500 above the highest TPA (there may be one or even two TPA's above the "standard" light plane TPA), and then completing the turnaround and descent to your TPA well clear of the pattern -- at least three miles away.

That's one way to do it, but be very sure nobody's coming up the upwind or climbing into you off the runway, and I still prefer the crosswind entry (the real crosswind -- about 3/4 mile beyond the departure end of the runway) when arriving from the non-pattern side.
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I an not disagreeing with you and I am glad you wrote 'highest' TPA in you statement. But even then there are issues.

For instance at my home airport their is an active aerobatics group. When they have their aerobatic window open part of it is right over the runway. Someone coming through at 500 above the highest TPA will be right in the middle of the aerobatic box. If the ground spotter misses them it could be ugly. It just shows me one more reason to not cross over a field at the midfield point. Better to swing around the outside of the pattern or join in another way.
 
smigaldi said:
I an not disagreeing with you and I am glad you wrote 'highest' TPA in you statement. But even then there are issues.

For instance at my home airport their is an active aerobatics group. When they have their aerobatic window open part of it is right over the runway. Someone coming through at 500 above the highest TPA will be right in the middle of the aerobatic box. If the ground spotter misses them it could be ugly. It just shows me one more reason to not cross over a field at the midfield point. Better to swing around the outside of the pattern or join in another way.
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And there may also be overlying B-space, or an R-area, or any number of things. OTOH, there may be an adjacent B-space or R-area or even the Canadian border (look at Grosse Ile in Detroit) which makes my crosswind entry impossible. I can even conceive of some situations in which the midfield might be the only choice.

My point is that one cannot address all the possibilities in a generalized answer, so one must always examine each specific situation to come up with the best answer for that particular situation.crosswind might be the only possibility. My answers to this point have been generalized, and should be used only as general guidelines and techniques to consider, not hard and fast rules.
 
Ron Levy said:
My point is that one cannot address all the possibilities in a generalized answer, so one must always examine each specific situation to come up with the best answer for that particular situation.crosswind might be the only possibility. My answers to this point have been generalized, and should be used only as general guidelines and techniques to consider, not hard and fast rules.
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To add to what Ron wrote. This is why all this stuff is advisory in nature instead of regulatory. We have a few choices and have to apply them to the situation at hand.
 
Ron Levy said:
even the Canadian border (look at Grosse Ile in Detroit)
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What does the Canadian border have to do with anything, there's no border adiz there, and I thought we could cross it with no problem as long as we don't land there...
 
SkyHog said:
What does the Canadian border have to do with anything, there's no border adiz there, and I thought we could cross it with no problem as long as we don't land there...
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There are no customs issues if you don't land there, but you must be on a filed IFR or regular (not DC ADIZ) VFR flight plan, with an assigned txp code, and in contact with ATC when you cross the border, even if you aren't landing on the other side. See http://www.aopa.org/members/files/travel/canada/can02.html under "Transponders and Waivers" and "Flight Plans." Blow too far across the pattern at Grosse Ile and you've crossed the US border into Canadian airspace, and if you're on CTAF squawking 1200, you've just screwed up.
 
I just found this thread and read through it and one thing no one mentioned is that traffic in the pattern is expecting other traffic to enter a particular way. If I am at an untowered field I am expecting traffic to enter on the 45 on downwind. I am not looking across the field for traffic. I turn crosswind and I am looking out in the distance for traffic on the 45 on downwind. That is a major reasons for standardizing an entry. By doing non-standard entries you may gain safety by having better visibility and all the other reasons given above but then you also take away the safety of having a set procedure that other pilots are expecting. I think I'll continue the field over-fly to the proper 45 entry and after reading this be extra vigilant looking for traffic from every which way (I think every conceivable way of entering the pattern has been mentioned here).
 
jayray said:
I just found this thread and read through it and one thing no one mentioned is that traffic in the pattern is expecting other traffic to enter a particular way. If I am at an untowered field I am expecting traffic to enter on the 45 on downwind. I am not looking across the field for traffic. I turn crosswind and I am looking out in the distance for traffic on the 45 on downwind.
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I wouldn't make a habit out of expecting anyone to be anywhere. I do my damnest to look in every direction in every spot in a constant scan while flying. I will admit I'm a lot more proactive about this in approach to landing phase or departure.

The interesting thing is when you fly in an aircraft with traffic awareness. It always seems as though I see *WAY* more planes with it than without. There are a fair number of planes that I would have never saw even though they weren't really all that far away.
 
jayray said:
I just found this thread and read through it and one thing no one mentioned is that traffic in the pattern is expecting other traffic to enter a particular way. If I am at an untowered field I am expecting traffic to enter on the 45 on downwind. I am not looking across the field for traffic.
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Really? I expect everyone other pilot to be an inconsiderate jerk who will enter from whatever direction they want to. I keep my head on a swivel looking for the NORDOs and planes that are piloted by people who have not ever read the AIM. I figure treat everything as if they are going to do something unsafe and I will ready for them.
 
jayray said:
I just found this thread and read through it and one thing no one mentioned is that traffic in the pattern is expecting other traffic to enter a particular way. If I am at an untowered field I am expecting traffic to enter on the 45 on downwind. I am not looking across the field for traffic. I turn crosswind and I am looking out in the distance for traffic on the 45 on downwind. That is a major reasons for standardizing an entry. By doing non-standard entries you may gain safety by having better visibility and all the other reasons given above but then you also take away the safety of having a set procedure that other pilots are expecting. I think I'll continue the field over-fly to the proper 45 entry and after reading this be extra vigilant looking for traffic from every which way (I think every conceivable way of entering the pattern has been mentioned here).
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Boy these guys can jump hard on a comment! What you said is similar to my comment earlier in the thread:

Just funin'. "By the book" meaning what is commonly taught by the CFI's - which means also what a lot of low-time pilots will do, and what a lot of low time pilots will be expecting to happen. Whatever the faults with the +500 flyover, it is very common. And it is included as approved for getting over an airport to set up for the 45. The fact is that "everyone else who uses the same technique" includes a lot of pilots.

Actually, the thread was/is very interesting in that it gets you thinking about options, and why, and when you need to do something a little unusual. It also lets people point out where what you think you should do has some problems. Very useful stuff. Thanks for this thread.

A "non-standard" entry has some hazards associated with it, not the least is the expectations of other pilots - especially low time pilots. That should not be news. As I noted earlier, AOPA has a Safety Advisor on this topic. http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf . For the non pattern side it has the TPA +500 flyover to a 45 entry, and the TPA crossover and turn downwind entry. And it mentions the need to be above the highest TPA when using the TPA +500.

My pitch for the end-around at 5 miles is that it is not a pattern entry at all. It is a path of flight to get to the 45 for a standard entry. With no one in the pattern it could be used to turn toward downwind. But the pattern entry occurs when you actually ENTER THE PATTERN.

If it gets you (and all of us) looking for traffic everywhere, this thread has been worth the time to read and write.
 
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SkyHog said:
I guess see and avoid doesn't apply to you then. That FAR is for everyone else.
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Maybe if you thought a little bit before you typed you would have read that I said on CROSS WIND I am not looking across the field for traffic because it is IMPOSSIBLE. I physically CANNOT see behind me without superman x-ray vision. Sorry I don't posse non-human x-men abilities like you.

Bolding was done to emphasize certain key points for SkyHog.
 
jayray said:
Maybe if you thought a little bit before you typed you would have read that I said on CROSS WIND I am not looking across the field for traffic because it is IMPOSSIBLE. I physically CANNOT see behind me without superman x-ray vision. Sorry I don't posse non-human x-men abilities like you.

Bolding was done to emphasize certain key points for SkyHog.
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What's your point? On downwind I can't look behind me to make sure some asshat in a fast mooney isn't going to run me over joining on the 45.

Same thing as you saying you can't look behind you to make sure you don't get ran over on cross wind by someone joining on crosswind.
 
jayray said:
Maybe if you thought a little bit before you typed you would have read that I said on CROSS WIND I am not looking across the field for traffic because it is IMPOSSIBLE. I physically CANNOT see behind me without superman x-ray vision. Sorry I don't posse non-human x-men abilities like you.

Bolding was done to emphasize certain key points for SkyHog.
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When I'm on final, I can't see behind me to make sure someone in a Citation isn't flying a straight in.

When I'm on upwind, I can't see final to see if someone is going around.

The point is to keep your eyes open when you can. There are many ways to enter the pattern, almost all of them legal and safe when people look for it.

"Any traffic in the area, please enter on a 45 degree angle to the downwind."
 
SkyHog said:
The point is to keep your eyes open when you can.
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Point well taken. And my point boils down to this - you only have so much time to look for traffic. Time is limited. I am more inclined to spend my limited commodity of time looking where the traffic is most likely and should be coming from. Sure I will always continue to look for traffic in every direction possible. I am just more likely to find you on the 45 to downwind because 1.) I have more time to look there - I can look there on crosswind (I can't look behind me on crosswind) 2.) I am going to spend more of my time looking for traffic where I expect it to come from.
 
While I have my disagreements with Jesse and SkyHog, I agree 100% that when in the pattern, you should expect the unexpected while trying to do the expected.

In any event, while the 45-downwind is the only "recommended" entry in the AIM, there are plenty of other entries recommended in AC's and safety pubs, so when in the pattern, one should always be on the lookout for airplanes entering upwind, downwind, and crosswind, as well as making straight-ins or even a midfield crossover to downwind at TPA. I realize that a lot of new CFI's lack the experience to realize just how common those non-AIM-recommended entries are used, and thus may not be able to provide their trainees with a good idea of how often they happen, but my 5500 hours of light plane experience suggests that less than half the entries are made on the 45.

Caveat aviator!
 
Ron Levy said:
but my 5500 hours of light plane experience suggests that less than half the entries are made on the 45.
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My experience in rural Minnesota suggests that maybe 20% at best is done on the 45.
 
I just make a 1000 FPM dive from 2 miles out ( with my eyes closed) and keep repeating: " any traffic in the area please advise" ! Sometimes I get confused and say " say winds and active please .":redface:
 
I almost always use option #3, over fly at least by 500' above pattern do your sharp turn decent to pattern etc.
 
jesse said:
What's your point? On downwind I can't look behind me to make sure some asshat in a fast mooney isn't going to run me over joining on the 45.
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The point is pretty obvious. I have a much better view and a lot more time to scan for traffic coming on the recommended 45 than I do at traffic coming from upwind, crosswind and on a 45 from the wrong side. Is it really all that hard to understand? If the asshat in the mooney was on the recommended 45 you'd have the whole time you turned crosswind from the upwind to spot him.
 
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SkyHog said:
When I'm on final, I can't see behind me to make sure someone in a Citation isn't flying a straight in.
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You could if you had one of those cool little Cessna 150 rear view mirrors we were discussing in the other thread. Useless indeed! ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, given the way that "any traffic in the area..." thing grew like a malevolent cancer on the CTAF's, you never can tell who's going to pick up on it and start using it.:eek:
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The guy I fly with says this all the time. I just twitch when he does it but I cannot talk him out of it. He doesnt see the problem with it. I just really hope I dont slip up and start saying it since I hear it all the time.
 
SkyHog said:
When I'm on final, I can't see behind me to make sure someone in a Citation isn't flying a straight in.
"
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Hey, us Citation drivers are not of the devil. It's the learjet guys you have to watch out for. *cough cough* Mari! I can say that since I am not a learjet driver anymore. Nick my approach speeds in the Citation are not much more than a high performace single if you are flying the aircraft properly. Of course I probably look and sound like "Animal" off the Muppets when you see me on final.
 
Flannagan said:
Hey, us Citation drivers are not of the devil. It's the learjet guys you have to watch out for. *cough cough* Mari! I can say that since I am not a learjet driver anymore. Nick my approach speeds in the Citation are not much more than a high performace single if you are flying the aircraft properly. Of course I probably look and sound like "Animal" off the Muppets when you see me on final.
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It's true! The Citation really does fly sloooooooooow. In fact, it's the only jet aircraft with an integral bird strike kit mounted on the tail. The Hawker 800 however.........:D
 
I think the key to pattern entry is PROPERLY evaluating the environment. But then, same as driving. You don't try stuffing an 800 pound gorilla into a tiny space nor do you pull a bonehead stunt like a crosswind entry 1/2 a mile in front of a downwinder while tying up the unicom with inane chatter.
There's a local airport where there are always multiple planes in the pattern, and some clutz doesn't play nice.
What's wrong with a 45 degree entry when the pattern is busy? And keep the chatter to the business at hand.
Whatever you chose, and I'm sure the FAA would agree, do it safely and with safety in mind.
And to the putz who cut me off.....
 
Flannagan said:
The guy I fly with says this all the time. I just twitch when he does it but I cannot talk him out of it. He doesnt see the problem with it.
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Have you tried showing him the AIM, Section 4-1-9, paragraph g.1.? Y'know, the part that says, "Pilots stating, 'Traffic in the area, please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition." [emphasis added]
 
jayray said:
I just found this thread and read through it and one thing no one mentioned is that traffic in the pattern is expecting other traffic to enter a particular way. If I am at an untowered field I am expecting traffic to enter on the 45 on downwind.
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So, where are you *expecting* traffic to enter the 45 from?

Point is, traffic could be anywhere. I don't think putting everyone on the 45 is any safer, 'cuz then you'd have people entering the 45 from all directions as well as descending from various altitudes. That seems, well... Dangerous! :hairraise:
 
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