Pattern Entry

So, where are you *expecting* traffic to enter the 45 from?

Point is, traffic could be anywhere. I don't think putting everyone on the 45 is any safer, 'cuz then you'd have people entering the 45 from all directions as well as descending from various altitudes. That seems, well... Dangerous! :hairraise:

Not to mention that anyone who "expects" all traffic to enter on a 45 to downwind will find that his expectations aren't being met all the time. IOW you've gotta look around all the time.
 
Have you tried showing him the AIM, Section 4-1-9, paragraph g.1.? Y'know, the part that says, "Pilots stating, 'Traffic in the area, please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition." [emphasis added]

Actually no. I have referenced that it is in there, however I have not had the time to go and search where it is specifically at. Thanks for the work.
 
Not to mention that anyone who "expects" all traffic to enter on a 45 to downwind will find that his expectations aren't being met all the time. IOW you've gotta look around all the time.

Ok. Look around all the time. I get that. No one disagrees. And before you enter the standard pattern you can "expect" aircraft from any direction and any altitude, but away from an airport the air is reasonably clear of traffic and you usually have a little time to notice and "see and avoid", before they run into you or you run into them. The "Big Sky".

The issue here is that the standard pattern is standard for a reason. You have more traffic going in and out, and it is a way to standardize how to get in and out efficiently and safely. You join the pattern to put you in a recognized order, and to get you to final without getting run over or running over someone else. The standard pattern is what is "expected". Getting to the pattern you have a lot of options, but once in it you are "expected" to follow the pattern at TPA. And when you are in the pattern, as you are setting up for landing, altitude, distance off the runway, airspeed, turn points, etc etc you should not have to "expect" anyone to just drop into the pattern from anywhere. You still need to see and avoid all right, but aircraft that are properly in the pattern should ordinarilly be able to "expect" to follow the pattern to the runway in the established order, and be able to spare some attention for the pre-landing checklist and landing configuration as well as spacing from the plane ahead.

This whole discussion about pattern entry seems to be split between those who think that the requirement to "see and avoid" means they ought to be free to do anything since everyone else ought to be looking out for them; and those who think the normal established protocols for how to do things are a good idea and ought to be followed. The fact that at some airports a lot of people do a lot of unusual things, does not make that a good idea. In fact, several threads here have been very critical of pilots who make a wrong decision while in the pattern.

A normal pattern entry is on the 45. That is where you set up for landing at pattern altitude and begin a route of flight that will be followed by just about everyone else. Getting to the 45 you can be at just about any altitude and from just about any direction (except right through the pattern I would hope) so "see and avoid", and the "Big Sky" helps avoid problems. If you do ANYTHING else but a 45 entry, you ought to make your actions fit into the existing flow of traffic seamlessly. Enough air separation so the people in the pattern do not have to do a 360 for spacing, or extend a downwind, or any other possible "out" to avoid trouble. If they need to use an "out" because you dropped into the pattern at a non-standard place, you did it wrong.

So, "see and avoid" all the time. But use standard entry unless the pattern is empty or you can do it without ANYONE having to take action to avoid YOU as a result. The acceptability of a non-standard entry ought to be about the probability of THAT, not a rationalization about "see and avoid" responsibility. That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it.
 
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Re: Cincinnati area mid-air news video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Reported involving a C172 and a Bonanza

http://www.wlwt.com/video/13307610/index.html?source=


I watched the whole report. It relates directly with the Pattern Entry thread. The collision was at TPA, near the airport. One of the comments was about the problems that result when someone does not follow the standard pattern. I could not tell if this was a non-standard pattern entry, or not. Very sad.
 
Ok. Look around all the time. I get that. No one disagrees. And before you enter the standard pattern you can "expect" aircraft from any direction and any altitude, but away from an airport the air is reasonably clear of traffic and you usually have a little time to notice and "see and avoid", before they run into you or you run into them. The "Big Sky".

The issue here is that the standard pattern is standard for a reason. You have more traffic going in and out, and it is a way to standardize how to get in and out efficiently and safely. You join the pattern to put you in a recognized order, and to get you to final without getting run over or running over someone else. The standard pattern is what is "expected". Getting to the pattern you have a lot of options, but once in it you are "expected" to follow the pattern at TPA. And when you are in the pattern, as you are setting up for landing, altitude, distance off the runway, airspeed, turn points, etc etc you should not have to "expect" anyone to just drop into the pattern from anywhere. You still need to see and avoid all right, but aircraft that are properly in the pattern should ordinarilly be able to "expect" to follow the pattern to the runway in the established order, and be able to spare some attention for the pre-landing checklist and landing configuration as well as spacing from the plane ahead.

This whole discussion about pattern entry seems to be split between those who think that the requirement to "see and avoid" means they ought to be free to do anything since everyone else ought to be looking out for them; and those who think the normal established protocols for how to do things are a good idea and ought to be followed. The fact that at some airports a lot of people do a lot of unusual things, does not make that a good idea. In fact, several threads here have been very critical of pilots who make a wrong decision while in the pattern.

A normal pattern entry is on the 45. That is where you set up for landing at pattern altitude and begin a route of flight that will be followed by just about everyone else. Getting to the 45 you can be at just about any altitude and from just about any direction (except right through the pattern I would hope) so "see and avoid", and the "Big Sky" helps avoid problems. If you do ANYTHING else but a 45 entry, you ought to make your actions fit into the existing flow of traffic seamlessly. Enough air separation so the people in the pattern do not have to do a 360 for spacing, or extend a downwind, or any other possible "out" to avoid trouble. If they need to use an "out" because you dropped into the pattern at a non-standard place, you did it wrong.

So, "see and avoid" all the time. But use standard entry unless the pattern is empty or you can do it without ANYONE having to take action to avoid YOU as a result. The acceptability of a non-standard entry ought to be about the probability of THAT, not a rationalization about "see and avoid" responsibility. That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it.

You can get all excited about whatever standard entry point you want. The problem is no one will ever be entering the same way It's just not going to happen. So enter how you want and be ready for another airplane to be filling your windscreen a few moments later. Don't expect any entry to save your bacon.

This is one of those--let's make the real world a perfect world and we'll all be safe. Well the real world is never going to be a perfect world. Airplanes will always run into each other with human pilots at the controls. So look all over the place--don't expect them from one spot. Cross your fingers and toes and be ready to react if you see a plane. It pays to be lucky sometimes.
 
Jesse,
I got all that. But being aware and ready for someone to do the unexpected, is not the same as saying that doing the unexpected is just fine.

My only real-life experience with a near-miss was on my first supervised solo as a student pilot. In the pattern doing some T&G's. After I turned crosswind to downwind, I see someone doing the mid-field crossover to downwind pattern entry. We are both on downwind about 500 feet apart. He was faster and pulling away. When my instructor got on the radio and had a word with him, he pulled out of the pattern and came back on the 45. Not sure if he saw me at all. He used a legal but non-standard pattern entry, and with the speed difference he would have been on the ground without me having to change my pattern at all - that time. But was it a good move? I was very inexperienced at the time, and if I had been in a faster plane it could have been a problem. At that point in training, some student may see and avoid right into a stall at TPA.

I'm just saying, standard is standard for good reason. Non-standard may still be legal, but do it with caution and consideration for the others in the pattern. You don't know what they will do if you surprise them.
 
I'm just saying, standard is standard for good reason. Non-standard may still be legal, but do it with caution and consideration for the others in the pattern. You don't know what they will do if you surprise them.

I'm saying there are 10 different "standard" pattern methods. This is pretty obvious if you look at the responses in this thread. So what you consider standard is not what another guy considers standard which means there is no standard and hoping for a standard is pointless.
 
I'm saying there are 10 different "standard" pattern methods. This is pretty obvious if you look at the responses in this thread. So what you consider standard is not what another guy considers standard which means there is no standard and hoping for a standard is pointless.
Well, I can see which group you are in. Standard is what is in the AIM. See AIM 4-3-3. Non-standard is all the other legal ways to join the pattern. Which is what most of the discussion has been about. And that means there are NOT 10 standard pattern entry's. Just because someone likes it and mentions it here, does not make it standard.
 
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Well, I can see which group you are in. Standard is what is in the AIM. See AIM 4-3-3. Non-standard is all the other legal ways to join the pattern. Which is what most of the discussion has been about. And that means there are NOT 10 standard pattern entry's. Just because someone likes it and mentions it here, does not make it standard.

Look. Don't argue with me. I'm right-- you are wrong. I have a jet in my profile which means I'm always right. :D


BTW, I do understand what you are saying. But my experience suggests that a 45 degree entry to downwind isn't done the vast majority of the time nor will it ever be. The AIM is seriously lacking in the traffic pattern department.
 
May be a regional thing. Around here it is used about 80% I would guess. Perhaps just something about the local CFI's and Examiners. Don't know. But those who use a non-standard entry seem to do it only if the pattern is empty, and rarely if they can fit in - like a straight in with someone just turned on downwind. Anyone drops in like happened to me on my first solo, and someone is likely to say something unkind on the radio. More people do the AIM standard, you get a safer pattern. Simple as that.
 
Look. Don't argue with me. I'm right-- you are wrong. I have a jet in my profile which means I'm always right. :D
Oh, and I just noted that you are still just 19. At 19 I knew it all too. About 10 more years and you will find out...
;) ;)
 
Oh, and I just noted that you are still just 19. At 19 I knew it all too. About 10 more years and you will find out...
;) ;)

I knew it all at about 16..Then I realized that I must not know much because living on ramen sucked.. 17 I started to know less..but the ramen became less frequency. 18 I knew a lot less. 19 I'm starting to learn what I thought I already knew and rarely eat ramen.. or something like that.
 
Never heard of it before now, but after reviewing it, I don't like it much. If you're established on the upwind, just continue in the pattern -- going out and rejoining on the 45 is likely to confuse anyone trying to sequence in with you. In addition, as stated above, my experience with Student Pilots suggests that when they turn their back on an airport they've already found, they often lose it, and then come blowing back acorss the field and through the pattern at TPA. As for that outside opposite entry at the end, it will put you beak to beak with the heavy/jet traffic in their downwind 500 above the light plane downwind -- not good at all. I'll stick with my recommendations above.
 
I "normally" cross mid-field and turn downwind when arriving from the opposite side of the pattern, but only if there isn't much traffic. I do it to stay out of the way of departing aircraft and to have a look at the field when in an unfamiliar area. I will fly around several miles away to merge on a 45 if the CTAF sounds busy.

Ron's point about the possibility of being belly to belly with a plane on 45 is well taken. I hadn't thought of that before. Perhaps flying upwind to crosswind would be safer, providing there aren't too many departing aircraft.
 
Actually, in this case, "recommended" is what is in the AIM, not "standard." There is no "standard" entry into the nontowered airport traffic pattern. If there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Ok. Recommended by the AIM. My opinion that OUGHT to make it standard for most pilots.
 
You are indeed entitled to your opinion, but for better or for worse, that ain't the way it is.

Even though the AIM is not regulatory in nature - wouldn't using the recommended procedures be safer for everyone? Isn't that why the AIM exists? And in this case wouldn't using the recommended procedure make more sense than coming up with your own methods for pattern entry? By your argument I can make my radio calls any way I feel prudent since there are no Regs for standard radio procedure - just recommendations. I won't come up with any examples of some ridiculous radio calls - just use your imagination. How many times do you hear these ridiculous calls and think to yourself, read the AIM and just use the RECOMMENDED calls. Same thing I think when people cut in front of me from some crazy pattern entry. Wouldn't the whole system be a bit smoother if we all used the recommended procedures?
 
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Even though the AIM is not regulatory in nature - wouldn't using the recommended procedures be safer for everyone? Isn't that why the AIM exists? And in this case wouldn't using the recommended procedure make more sense than coming up with your own methods for pattern entry? By your argument I can make my radio calls any way I feel prudent since there are no Regs for standard radio procedure - just recommendations. I won't come up with any examples of some ridiculous radio calls - just use your imagination. How many times do you hear these ridiculous calls and think to yourself, read the AIM and just use the RECOMMENDED calls. Same thing I think when people cut in front of me from some crazy pattern entry. Wouldn't the whole system be a bit smoother if we all used the recommended procedures?

The problem is different airports, airplanes, and a number of other factors all influence a pattern entry. A standard "this works for everything" is unrealistic.
 
The problem is different airports, airplanes, and a number of other factors all influence a pattern entry. A standard "this works for everything" is unrealistic.
Let's keep in mind that the difference between "recommended" and "standard" is partly one of semantics. The AIM-recommended practices should be standard for everyone, but as everyone with more than about 30 minutes in his/her logbook realizes, that ain't so, which means you have to be on the lookout for those for whom they are not standard.

In addition, as Jesse points out, the fact that there is only one "recommended" pattern entry in the AIM (the 45 to downwind) doesn't mean that is the only "standard" way to enter the pattern, depending on conditions, including your arrival direction, the weather, additional patterns at 500-foot intervals above the base pattern, etc. There are also other "recommended" entries in other good sources, including AOPA ASF pubs and other FAA pubs like the AC's on operating at nontowered airports.

Thus, the real keys to keeping the pattern safe at a nontowered airport are (1) entering in such a way that you are easily visible to any potentially conflicting traffic in or entering the pattern or taking off (preferably, but not necessarily, via one of the "recommended" procedures), and (2) keeping your eyes open for anyone who might be entering via any one of the variously-recommended methods, as well as the occasional fruit-loop who makes up his/her own off-the-wall entry. Make those two keys your "standards," and you'll do fine. Forget either, and you'll be the fruit-loop everyone else has to worry about.
 
I couldn't read through all of this, but long ago began entering crosswind at TPA. If there was a traffic conflict, I'd break away from that traffic and reenter. It gives an excellent view of traffic; one can monitor any departures pretty easily and usually see the wind sock. If it's busy, this makes it real easy to work into the pattern.

The midfield 500 feet hight is just nuts in a low wing IMO. Cross over go where from there? Other folks are coming in to enter from that side and aren't always real precise on where that is: directionally or altitude wise. So, now that you've crossed over, your descending right where others are coming in to enter; alway made me real quezy. Then, as Ron said, one has their back to the pattern in the turn.

If flew each of these methods many times and never could get comfortable with the cross over at mid field 500 feet high. Now, if I couldn't see the windsock and there was no traffic, I might have to fly over to see that and any traffic pattern indicator, but with any existing traffic and AWOS that's not normally a problem.

BTW, these all can work well if everyone's taking and properly reporting their position. With folks that are NORDO, folks mis reporting where they are and all the other errors being made, I want to be where I can see the best and cross wind is it for me.

I could see entering mid field at TPA if I could see all traffic and thought I could work in. I'd never do this if the patter was busy. On a cross wind entry I can queue up in front of or behind a departure and get established without cutting in on anyone.

Best,

Dave
 
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Hmm, which takes precedence, the AIM or an AC?
 

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Hmm, which takes precedence, the AIM or an AC?
As neither is regulatory, neither "takes precedence" -- both are FAA-approved means of doing things. OMIGAWD -- you mean there may be more than one acceptable way to enter the pattern?:eek: Guess we'll just have to keep our eyes open and our heads on a swivel!:yes:
 
As neither is regulatory, neither "takes precedence" -- both are FAA-approved means of doing things. OMIGAWD -- you mean there may be more than one acceptable way to enter the pattern?:eek: Guess we'll just have to keep our eyes open and our heads on a swivel!:yes:

Indeed!! I love it ;)
 
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