Pattern at towered airport

paflyer

paflyer

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Can't believe I don't remember this, but it's been almost 17 years since I've flown circuits at a towered airport; on departure, does tower generally call your crosswind or is it PD, within reason (say, turn at the end of the runway..)
 
Not perfectly clear what you're asking, since you mentioned "circuits" and "departure," but they will typically tell you what pattern to fly (i.e. "Make left traffic"), you'll fly a normal pattern and they'll clear you to land sometime in between. They will only tell you that they'll call your base if needed for traffic purposes. Otherwise you'll make all turns as normal.

For departure, it's PD unless special conditions for that airport (i.e noise abatement) or the tower tells you otherwise.
 
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paflyer said:
Can't believe I don't remember this, but it's been almost 17 years since I've flown circuits at a towered airport; on departure, does tower generally call your crosswind or is it PD, within reason (say, turn at the end of the runway..)
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What does the AIM say about this topic?
 
Typically it's given in your takeoff clearance, e.g.: "Make left [or right] closed traffic, runway XX, cleared for takeoff."

They will tell you if they want to call your crosswind, otherwise, turn at the normal point.
 
PD unless directed.
 
I usually get from the tower: make left traffic, make right traffic, or make left or right traffic. In the last case I'll read back whichever I choose.
 
exncsurfer said:
I usually get from the tower: make left traffic, make right traffic, or make left or right traffic. In the last case I'll read back whichever I choose.
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The question was when to turn Xwind when remaining in the pattern.
 
paflyer said:
The question was when to turn Xwind when remaining in the pattern.
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I was making a tangent. Its somewhat related in that they are telling you which way to turn crosswind or to pick your own.

Thanks
 
paflyer said:
Can't believe I don't remember this, but it's been almost 17 years since I've flown circuits at a towered airport; on departure, does tower generally call your crosswind or is it PD, within reason (say, turn at the end of the runway..)
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Unless tower directs otherwise, you should fly the extended runway centerline until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.
 
roncachamp said:
Unless tower directs otherwise, you should fly the extended runway centerline until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.
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If the FAA wants us to know this stuff, they should put it into a major publication that is free and searchable (tic).
 
whattauser said:
I recommend reading it prior to said ignoration, be it extensive or tangential.
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BigBadLou said:
And then we could ignore it extensively. :D
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Why would you bother reading something that is full of *shoulds* and not regulatory in nature? Who cares if it standardizes behavior and expectations, and provides best practices!?

:devil:
 
paflyer said:
The question was when to turn Xwind when remaining in the pattern.
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If tower knows you're in closed traffic, just fly the pattern as you would at an uncontrolled airport, unless they specifically advise you otherwise.

Ex. "N123 make right closed traffic, I'll call your crosswind."
 
I fly out of a Delta and works like this:

If on ground, let them know you have the ATIS and plan on staying in the pattern. They will give you a code and you fly the normal traffic pattern, if they want you in the opposite they will tell you.

If coming inbound let tower know you have the ATIS, they will give you a code and clear you for touch and go, you fly the normal pattern unless specified.

In both situations you just call your midfield downwind, most of the time they will clear you for touch and go, if they need they will tell you to extend your downwind and they will call your base. For my airport you fly centerline till 800AGL (noise abatement) then turn crosswind
 
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Agree with nearly everything in this thread, but...

I find, at least around here, instructions about how to fly the pattern at a particular airport are more the rule than the exception. It's either in the AF/D or airport signs or airport flyers or the airport website. Typically, it's noise abatement turns, climbing to X altitude before turning, or avoid overflying such-and-such structure. It's common enough that while "fly normally" is the general rule, the actual amount of time that applies is shockingly low.
 
eman1200 said:
I learned to fly by watching MrAviation101 videos.
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Lol I sense the sarcasm...I have actually learned a lot (mostly radio related stuff) from MrAviation101, steveo, MzeroA, FlightChops, etc. Not saying they are my sole source for learning, but I do pick up good bits from them.

Although I have started to get a little bored with Mr.Aviation's videos...kind of just the same flying...and I kind of laugh at some of his corny "monologues" at the end of the videos.
 
arnoha said:
Agree with nearly everything in this thread, but...

I find, at least around here, instructions about how to fly the pattern at a particular airport are more the rule than the exception. It's either in the AF/D or airport signs or airport flyers or the airport website. Typically, it's noise abatement turns, climbing to X altitude before turning, or avoid overflying such-and-such structure. It's common enough that while "fly normally" is the general rule, the actual amount of time that applies is shockingly low.
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Sounds like Kalifornistan.
 
What normally happens.... like 90% of time or more is they tell you to fly your on-course heading when they clear you for takeoff. At least where I've flown that's the case.
 
cowman said:
What normally happens.... like 90% of time or more is they tell you to fly your on-course heading when they clear you for takeoff. At least where I've flown that's the case.
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Perhaps you should review the title of this discussion.
 
roncachamp said:
Perhaps you should review the title of this discussion.
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Ahh, yeah IDK where I was on that.

In that case they'll tell you what they want you to do. Usually fly normal pattern and report before turning base but it may change up depending on traffic.
 
Which direction is the coleslaw?



That's all I need to know.o_O
 
I am still a student pilot base out of KNEW and we turn at 500 because of the noise for the neighborhood. Well that is for 18L if you are taking off from 36R noise is no issue because you fly out over the lake.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
I am still a student pilot base out of KNEW and we turn at 500 because of the noise for the neighborhood. Well that is for 18L if you are taking off from 36R noise is no issue because you fly out over the lake.
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KAPA often has unofficial documents floating around that state its desired to turn before Arapahoe Road northbound to avoid the noise complaints of the neighborhood on the hill to the northwest.

All you'll find about it in the Chart Supplement is that noise abatement procedures are in effect and to call Airport Ops about it on the phone (I'm going to guess less than 10% of users of the airport have done that.)

You won't be at the FAA suggested minimum altitude by Arapahoe Road (300' from pattern altitude) before making that turn in nearly any aircraft either.

And a second blurb that there's noise abatement for "sensitive" areas NW and SE with a "minimum altitude" of 7,300 MSL which is 500' *above* pattern altitude for us piston powered folk. I'm guessing the tower might ask what you were doing up there if you did that in the pattern unless you're the turbine kids.

I've seen this silliness where the noise abatement procedures are obfuscated and not published correctly at a lot of airports. Especially nifty are the airports who even have signs made up to place near runway entrances where the Chart Supplement doesn't mention anything about it, and even the instrument departure procedures would "violate" what's painted on the sign.
 
whattauser said:
Sounds like Kalifornistan.
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I'm in California, yeah, but it's pretty much true anywhere airports and dense populations mix. It's pretty common on the East coast as well. The Bay Area has an incredibly rich aviation history and culture, and many airports. Most of them are right in the middle of population centers, so it's not surprising that folks may want you to turn toward the bay first instead of straight toward houses. All the procedures are super-easy and you can skip them for any safety-related reason, no matter how flimsy.

Except for Hayward. KHWD is anal about airspace, pattern height, and noise. They will absolutely violate your butt. Everyone else is chill.

Even the Bravo is super-chill. One of my favorite flights was coasting along at 1500' VFR, with SFO under my right wing and tendrils of the top of the fog layer lapping at my wheels, Sutro tower poking out and declaring its supremacy of height.
 
arnoha said:
Except for Hayward. KHWD is anal about airspace, pattern height, and noise. They will absolutely violate your butt. Everyone else is chill.
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So explain to those of us who don't live in overcrowded hell holes, how you're "violated".

What FAR? Or is it a city ordinance? What's the price tag on a "ticket"?

I'm just curious.
 
denverpilot said:
So explain to those of us who don't live in overcrowded hell holes, how you're "violated".

What FAR? Or is it a city ordinance? What's the price tag on a "ticket"?

I'm just curious.
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http://www.hayward-ca.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Aircraft-Noise-Ordinance.pdf

For noise, that's the law. It's a city ordinance. It's backed up with $500+ fines for the second violation and beyond. It's enforced with microphone noise gathering equipment on common departure paths. CFIs are specifically named as responsible if they are instructing. The airport is, of course, towered, so they certainly know who you are. They can and do fine people all the time, though it's generally jets that fall afoul of the regulations.

The airspace regulations are, of course, in the FAR. The presence of KOAK's surface area so close to the departure end of the runway means you are turning crosswind in a very narrow area. If you turn crosswind too soon, you'll be hit for noise. Too late and you violate the Charlie. The other thing that happens is the larger runway pattern is to the west. Which is right underneath approach for the big runway at Oakland. Pattern height is 650', so much lower than is common. Get too high and you can alternately catch some wake turbulence or set off the big jets' TCAS. The tower makes it an offense by giving you an altitude restriction at times, so it becomes regulatory by making it an instruction you didn't follow.

It's the black sheep around here. Everywhere else may have weird patterns, but they're pretty laid back about it.
 
We also have a discrepancy on pattern altitude at KNEW. Charts say 1000' but that was changed to 800' I believe it was changed years ago they say. I have seen both altitudes published. It really depends on your CFI. I always ask the CFI what pattern altitude he wants me to fly. I get the same thing " pick one and stay with it"
 
Maybe it was changed due to the bravo airspace so close.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
We also have a discrepancy on pattern altitude at KNEW. Charts say 1000' but that was changed to 800' I believe it was changed years ago they say. I have seen both altitudes published. It really depends on your CFI. I always ask the CFI what pattern altitude he wants me to fly. I get the same thing " pick one and stay with it"
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Seems to me like it doesn't matter what someone saw published in the past. Whatever's on the chart today is what I'd be flying. If the charts don't agree, then I'd be asking for something official to put in my wallet that says which chart is faulty.
 
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