Past DUI and 3rd Class Medical

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autotechsys

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autotechsys
I have a question regarding obtaining a 3rd Class medical certificate with a prior DUI. I have had my private pilot’s certificate since 1997 but due to job and income restraints I have not been current since 98. I have flown off and on with instructors and have had a couple of medicals along the way. Recently, I finally have the time and money to continue my training. I have passed my biennial flight review and though I had my medical all set. I then got the famous letter from Oklahoma.
I had noted on my medical application a prior DUAC charge from 2012. (In my state, a DUAC is an alcohol violation of .08 on your driving record, but is not a DUI or an arrest.) Using that information, my Medical Examiner passed me and issued a certificate and we sent in the traffic ticket and other required information that we though Oklahoma would need for approval.
My letter from OK stated that my medical had not been denied; however they needed more information. And here is where my questions really start. My real BAC was a .15 before being reduced by the court to the .08 DUAC. The letter stated that for a BAC over .14 I should see a HIMS specialist to help me get the issue resolved. The only one in my state was about two hours away. I contacted him and he referred me to his SAS for a “meeting/review” and told me I had nothing to worry about. I assumed this was just part of the procedure to get me cleared for my medical.
This SAS set up a meeting with me, demanded all fees in cash (no receipt offered), and then performed the evaluation. Two days later I got a call and they informed me that I would never fly again unless I did mandatory rehab and total abstinence from alcohol forever.
I called the HIMS specialist about this report and I explained that this seemed very harsh and a punishment not fit for my charge three years ago. I realize I made a mistake, but all of the forums I have searched stay that 1 DUI is not a big deal so long as there is no evidence of habitual offences. The HIMS specialist said he would talk with his colleges and get back to me. That was three weeks ago and I have not heard anything back from him. Now I feel like I have wasted my money and have been thrown under the bus. I thought the HIMS specialists were there to help the pilots…
Any ideas on what to do next would be appreciated. I still have not submitted anything to the FAA and I have requested an extension for my deadline to get them the requested documentation.
 
Sorry, I can't help, but I can help explain.

The deal is the high BAC. If it's high enough and you are still able to "drive", FAA considers that a sign of tolerance from abuse and wants a lot more than just a check mark on a form.
 
Yep, that's the long and the short of it.

Over .15 is evidence of tollerance, which is evidence of long term use. The HIMS protocol is basically you demonstrating zero use. That means stuff like AA, and it means peeing in a cup on demand for a while.

The other issue you may run into is the mandatory report under 61.15(e). As a certificate holder (you said you were a private pilot), even if it occurs when you're not flying actively, you're obligated to report any motor vehicle action involving alcohol or drugs to the FAA within 60 days.
 
As far as constructive advice...

Talk to Dr. Bruce. He is an AME who specializes in difficult cases.

http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/

Hint: He does not suffer any dishonesty whatsoever. Tell him absolutely everything. If you hold something back, and it later comes up, he'll drop you by the side of the road in the middle of the desert. (Metaphorically speaking of course)
 
What you have here is, " the way it is" and " the way you want it to be." You want it to be, hey, I made one mistake, surely that can't be the end of it, right? I mean, I am an adult and I changed my ways. The way it is, the FAA believes, based on lots of evidence, that someone blowing .15 has a high tolerance to alcohol and its up to you to prove you don't. So, contact Bruce Chein as advised above, jump through the hoops, spend the time and the money, it will take a lot of both, or stop now. That is the harsh truth and I am sorry. On the bright side, you can get your medical, it just won't be easy.
 
The tendency in this country is to slap a label of dependency on anyone who has ever gotten into any sort of trouble as a result of alcohol or drugs. There's also a near-religious adherence to the doctrine that total abstinence is the only possible path to recovery. Both of those assumptions are true in many cases, but they are not true in all cases.

Unfortunately, a cottage industry has arisen to monetize the first two assumptions. There's no money in treating people who aren't sick, so there's a financial incentive for substance abuse counselors to diagnose as many people as possible as being dependent and in need of treatment. In addition, the addiction-treatment industry has spawned cottage industries of its own, including the vast network of labs that collect samples for substance abuse testing.

Consequently, if you want to try to convince the FAA that your one ticket doesn't make you an alcoholic, you're going up against Puritan-inspired dichotomous thinking, bureaucratic inertia, and the profit motive. Lotsa' luck with that.

Long story short, if you want to fly, you're going to have to quit drinking.

Rich
(Erstwhile CASAC)
 
10 weeks per crop, 12 plants yielding 4 lbs per cycle, you'll make enough money to buy a plane before Obama is out of office.
 
You need to remember that the doctors at the FAA are practicing Organizational Medicine. That means they study trends and statistics to determine how likely an issue is.

They see .15 BAC and think "Ok, 15% of people who blow .15 are raging drunks" which also translates to "There's a 15% chance this guy is one too and we're not letting him get into an airplane unless he proves otherwise".

Does that help explain your situation?
 
Thanks for all of the relies thus far... I understand the reasoning behind the formulas, but are there options for a second opinion?? I feel my evaluator was biased and had their mind made up before I walked in the door... They did not even talk with anyone in my family or workplace before submitting the report like they said they would.
 
autotechsys said:
Thanks for all of the relies thus far... I understand the reasoning behind the formulas, but are there options for a second opinion?? I feel my evaluator was biased and had their mind made up before I walked in the door... They did not even talk with anyone in my family or workplace before submitting the report like they said they would.
Click to expand...

The person best equipped to answer that question is someone on the skill level of Dr. Bruce Chien.
 
autotechsys said:
Thanks for all of the relies thus far... I understand the reasoning behind the formulas, but are there options for a second opinion?? I feel my evaluator was biased and had their mind made up before I walked in the door... They did not even talk with anyone in my family or workplace before submitting the report like they said they would.
Click to expand...
Hard to say from here about a 2nd opinion. You can check with another AME (like the one who was just referred) and explain the situation and listen to what he says.

It's not really a case of not liking what the evaluator says. In his case, the FAA has a pretty strict protocol that has to be followed, and the HIMS AME knows exactly what it is.
 
If you buy a long ez, just make sure you have enough gas in it.
 
It's basically become a one strike game. Read Rich's treatise again, it's spot on. Also, since your strike has the little asterisk* of being over the pre-defined .14 limit for a long term substance abuser you basically went into the SAS with a giant screw pinned to your back. All he needed was your money, and 10 min with you to screw it completely in - which he did.

You got shafted by a couple of guys there, but lets not quibble, you helped shaft yourself. What you left out is the lab results. I notice there's no info on what the lab results were, and I'm pretty sure they took a blood sample and had it analyzed. I'm not a med/chem guy, but apparently there's some indicators in your blood sample that show long term, heavy alcohol tolerance. Again - I'm not the guy to back it up, but this is what I've heard before. If your blood work had that indication, whatever it is, he can back up his diagnosis with this lab result and you are done drinking or flying.

Now, since you haven't been in the air for a while, maybe you weren't aware of Sport Pilot. If you got a deferral from OK city you aren't eligible anymore for the SP use. But - once you get your med sorted out, and get a special issuance, you never, ever need to get another aeromed again if - and only if you restrict your flying to Sport Pilot rules. Look into that, but first go to Dr Bruce Chien and lay it out for him to get your SI completed if possible.
 
autotechsys said:
(In my state, a DUAC is an alcohol violation of .08 on your driving record, but is not a DUI or an arrest.)
Click to expand...

That ship has already sailed, but I personally would have consulted an aviation attorney to determine if the event was actually reportable.
 
I assume we're talking about South Carolina. DUAC is a different charge from a DUI but it is a conviction and as far as the FAA is concerned (and frankly as far as SC is concerned it is too). Even if they weren't convictions, the fact your license got suspended as a result of alcohol is as far as the FAA concerned a strike against you.

You've got two DUIs and one at a high BAC. I don't see how Dr. Bruce or any AME is going to get you a better outcome than what the FAA is currently offering you. Perhaps your initial HIMS AME gave you too optimistic of an opinion as to what might happen (and perhaps he believed your misconception that you don't have TWO DUIs).
 
There is no way around this one. If you want to fly, you have to comply. It's really not so bad. They want to see at least 2 years of abstinence. You won't fly for the first year while you are going through the motions of:

1) monthly, random EgT tests at your own expense (~$20)
2) weekly (at first) meetings with a drug/alcohol councilor
3) AA weekly
4) Bi-annual visits with your HIMS AME

Have they asked for a HIMS Psych eval? That's like $3000...if not, consider yourself lucky.
 
flyingron said:
I assume we're talking about South Carolina. DUAC is a different charge from a DUI but it is a conviction and as far as the FAA is concerned (and frankly as far as SC is concerned it is too). Even if they weren't convictions, the fact your license got suspended as a result of alcohol is as far as the FAA concerned a strike against you.

You've got two DUIs and one at a high BAC. I don't see how Dr. Bruce or any AME is going to get you a better outcome than what the FAA is currently offering you. Perhaps your initial HIMS AME gave you too optimistic of an opinion as to what might happen (and perhaps he believed your misconception that you don't have TWO DUIs).
Click to expand...

How did you deduce from the OP that he had 2 DUI's? He said one DUAC that was reduced from .15.
 
ifly4fun said:
How did you deduce from the OP that he had 2 DUI's? He said one DUAC that was reduced from .15.
Click to expand...

I misread it. When he said "prior" I thought he meant prior to the current event he just meant prior to his application.

DUAC is still a conviction and it is as far as anybody is concerned the moral equivalent of a DUI. All it means is that you violated the per se (.08) limit rather than being shown to be intoxicated. The sanctions are the same from the state. Both are misdemeanor criminal charges. The FAA doesn't care either. In fact, a DUAC is a mandatory security report too.
 
autotechsys said:
Thanks for all of the relies thus far... I understand the reasoning behind the formulas, but are there options for a second opinion?? I feel my evaluator was biased and had their mind made up before I walked in the door... They did not even talk with anyone in my family or workplace before submitting the report like they said they would.
Click to expand...

In the evaluation, you did not provide the evidence of what they wanted to see. Assuming there was any acceptable evidence that would have worked. There's no second opinion.

You have been placed the in "maybe a raging drunk" category, fairly or not, they really don't care. They might place 95% of the applicants in that category knowing that only 15% belong. Now you have to prove that you don't belong there. That's how organizational medicine works. Welcome to the broken system that you never knew existed.

You have your option - no drinking forever and a stringent monitoring program. If alcohol is really not a problem for you then it should make the monitoring easier.
 
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docmirror said:
It's basically become a one strike game. Read Rich's treatise again, it's spot on. Also, since your strike has the little asterisk* of being over the pre-defined .14 limit for a long term substance abuser you basically went into the SAS with a giant screw pinned to your back. All he needed was your money, and 10 min with you to screw it completely in - which he did.

You got shafted by a couple of guys there, but lets not quibble, you helped shaft yourself. What you left out is the lab results. I notice there's no info on what the lab results were, and I'm pretty sure they took a blood sample and had it analyzed. I'm not a med/chem guy, but apparently there's some indicators in your blood sample that show long term, heavy alcohol tolerance. Again - I'm not the guy to back it up, but this is what I've heard before. If your blood work had that indication, whatever it is, he can back up his diagnosis with this lab result and you are done drinking or flying.

Now, since you haven't been in the air for a while, maybe you weren't aware of Sport Pilot. If you got a deferral from OK city you aren't eligible anymore for the SP use. But - once you get your med sorted out, and get a special issuance, you never, ever need to get another aeromed again if - and only if you restrict your flying to Sport Pilot rules. Look into that, but first go to Dr Bruce Chien and lay it out for him to get your SI completed if possible.
Click to expand...


Thanks Cowboy, but they never asked for a blood sample or any other lab tests. This was just based on a high pressure question and answer session...
 
autotechsys said:
Thanks Cowboy, but they never asked for a blood sample or any other lab tests. This was just based on a high pressure question and answer session...
Click to expand...

Wow, you really did get the royal shaft. Gosh, sorry. Now that it's in your file, things are not going to go smoothly. A 'professional' has so writ, and now can't be undone. What a douche move that guy did to you.
 
OK, my next question, and hopefully my last in this thread... I have not responded to the FAA to this point, Only requested an extension to the time line for getting them the additional information they requested. Yes I feel like I got an injustice from the SAS evaluator, and the HIMS Doc has not called me back or made any efforts to help me... So... I am assuming that they will not make any reports back to the FAA without my approval. I have emailed the specialist in the above post to see what he recommends... I just want to get my story out there for anyone else who may be in my shoes...
 
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