Passengers Report Stolen SeaTac Plane, Grounded Flights

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LongRoadBob said:
It would be like advocating everyone has a right (with no hinder, no exceptions) to buy and fly an airplane. No need to take lessons, prove you can fly, pass a test. Just any Clem that wants to can go out and fly.
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Well for practical purposes, they can. One of the dirty little secrets of aviation I'm afraid. If you've got the money to buy and own without insurance, there is very little the FAA can do to stop you. The FAA doesn't throw people in jail. Certificate actions are more or less their only tool for keeping John Q Public in line with the regs. Pretty hard to take a certificate action against someone who doesn't have a certificate. I know I've read several NTSB reports on accidents involving pilots who owned and flew for years with no certificate.
 
kc4wsd said:
If you build a better mousetrap, the mice will just get smarter.

Exhibit A: Viruses that are resistant to new vaccines.
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Resistance to vaccines has nothing to do with viruses getting smarter. Its usually nothing more than a form of natural selection at work. And to some extent eventual resistance is inevitable but I get your point.
 
timwinters said:
He'd been despondent ever since it was announced last month that turboprop passenger service is coming to an end and he just wanted to prove to everyone that they are still quite capable aircraft.
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Where did you get that from?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Well for practical purposes, they can. One of the dirty little secrets of aviation I'm afraid. If you've got the money to buy and own without insurance, there is very little the FAA can do to stop you. The FAA doesn't throw people in jail. Certificate actions are more or less their only tool for keeping John Q Public in line with the regs. Pretty hard to take a certificate action against someone who doesn't have a certificate. I know I've read several NTSB reports on accidents involving pilots who owned and flew for years with no certificate.
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I have heard of cases where people have gotten prosecuted for flying without holding a certificate, but not many. I don't remember whether prison time was involved, or just a monetary penalties.
 
Quick, somebody invent a "Denver Boot" for commercial aircraft, could end up a billion dollar industry.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Sure, that's the same thing as a one time incident....

Average of eight kids shot by unsecured firearms daily...
Tons (like 40 per two weeks, reported) gun fails where idiots that don't have gun "control" shoot themselves and others by accident, and then you have the cyclic mass shootings.

So which of the "gun control laws" do you feel was enacted in one isolated incident, and what effect? It's not as if it is hard for either a responsible gun owner OR a moron that doesn't even have basic safety consciousness to buy a gun.

It would be like advocating everyone has a right (with no hinder, no exceptions) to buy and fly an airplane. No need to take lessons, prove you can fly, pass a test. Just any Clem that wants to can go out and fly.

Making laws after one incident is a bad thing in general. Gun incidents are daily occurrences.
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There are many examples, but you asked for one so that’s what I’ll give. The Las Vegas shooter who used a bump stock has now given us a bump stock ban, at least in my state.
 
LoLPilot said:
Those are all meant for your use and your use only. Take the FBO situation, where a plane is back, its next renter is waiting, but the previous renter still has the key in their pocket and they're standing out on the ramp talking to their buddy, or they dropped it somewhere out on the ramp and now everyone has to go look for it. Apply that to common carriers.
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No jeez, you're right. I can't think of a single procedural, or technological solution to this problem. :rolleyes:
 
Scary Mary says “Though aircraft mechanics have broad access and routinely taxi planes along the tarmac, ground crew members are not supposed to be allowed inside cockpits, which have locking doors.”

Along the tarmac?! Hell, I’ve taxied jet airliners such as the L1011, 727, 737, and 757 on active taxiways and runways and even to the gates. And some of our ramp guys were trained to operate the APU and ride brakes under tow from and to the gates and remote areas.

I guess that would scare Scary Mary even more if she knew that.
 
I'm just here hoping that no politician/bureaucrat/reporter ever takes notice of how little security there is at small GA airports and starts demanding something be done.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
If you've got the money to buy and own without insurance, there is very little the FAA can do to stop you. The FAA doesn't throw people in jail. Certificate actions are more or less their only tool for keeping John Q Public in line with the regs.
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False. US Code, Title 49, Section 46306. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46306

This dude is doing jail time in a federal pen for flying a Slowtation without a certificate.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/p...ets-passengers-onboard-without-proper-license
 
Dav8or said:
No jeez, you're right. I can't think of a single procedural, or technological solution to this problem. :rolleyes:
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What's your solution that would be inexpensive to implement and would not add a delay to a system that already times itself in seconds?

Also, the whole thing about military vehicles...?
 
How will we protect the children?
And the puppies.
I was in the anti-virus business before there WAS an anti-virus business.
I got out as soon as we sold the product to Norton because it was obvious to even the casual observer that there was no way to stop viruses, and there was no way you could keep people from being stupid and becoming infected.
It was much more profitable to make and sell mission specific viruses (like zero day, and others you have never heard of) to governments.
The same logic applies to aircraft, and boats and cars. There are too many of them to stop them from being used as weapons, if someone is willing to die.
 
cowman said:
I'm just here hoping that no politician/bureaucrat/reporter ever takes notice of how little security there is at small GA airports and starts demanding something be done.
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And if they find out that there are airplanes that can take off from farmers' fields, will they be demanding ten-foot fences around those?
 
slacktide said:
False. US Code, Title 49, Section 46306. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46306

This dude is doing jail time in a federal pen for flying a Slowtation without a certificate.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/p...ets-passengers-onboard-without-proper-license
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Actually, he's in jail because he represented himself and his operation as something it wasn't, and he was prosecuted for violating the US Code, not Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (the FAA's purview). The FAA may assist in supplying evidence, but as a regulatory agency, they can't do anything more than pull your paperwork. As noted in the other discussion on a banner plane crash, that won't stop anyone.
 
Shepherd said:
How will we protect the children?
And the puppies.
I was in the anti-virus business before there WAS an anti-virus business.
I got out as soon as we sold the product to Norton because it was obvious to even the casual observer that there was no way to stop viruses, and there was no way you could keep people from being stupid and becoming infected.
It was much more profitable to make and sell mission specific viruses (like zero day, and others you have never heard of) to governments.
The same logic applies to aircraft, and boats and cars. There are too many of them to stop them from being used as weapons, if someone is willing to die.
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Since you mentioned Norton that one came on my wife's laptop. I had to disable it to make some of her software function correctly. If that's not a great analogy for the problems with physical security I don't know what is.


Palmpilot said:
And if they find out that there are airplanes that can take off from farmers' fields, will they be demanding ten-foot fences around those?
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Oh and wait until they realize all these farmers and people like me who live out in the woods can do all sorts of things without anyone seeing them. Do you realize how many farm kids did stuff like throw batteries in burn barrels or improvise explosives and set them off in the back 40 for the fun of it? It's not inconceivable that in a decade or two they'll have the technology to monitor every square inch of the US with satellites and drones and won't that make you feel warm and fuzzy. Seems outlandish now but how many folks flying commercial in the 50's would have envisioned having to take your shoes and belt off and get an x-ray to get on a plane?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Fair enough. I now of one single case where someone saw jail time for flying without a certificate. How many more do it and never see a second of jail time or pay a penny in fines?
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Here’s three more dudes who went to jail. Shall I keep going? Realistically, if you get caught, you are going to get prosecuted. It’s pretty foolish to think otherwise. Like any other crime, there are a number of people that have not been caught. Yet.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article2619084.html

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/article_0cd7f5cc-2eaf-11e8-9e7e-ab8186706025.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangl...ntenced-for-tax-evasion-serving-as-pilot.html
 
slacktide said:
Here’s three more dudes who went to jail. Shall I keep going? Realistically, if you get caught, you are going to get prosecuted. It’s pretty foolish to think otherwise. Like any other crime, there are a number of people that have not been caught. Yet.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article2619084.html

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/article_0cd7f5cc-2eaf-11e8-9e7e-ab8186706025.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangl...ntenced-for-tax-evasion-serving-as-pilot.html
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So far all four examples you have given were much more than simply flying without a license. The reality is, you won’t go to jail for simply flying without a certificate. Operating an illegal charter? Yes. Flying with false documents? Yes. Flying after being warned numerous times? Yes.

Eta, oh, and tax evasion.
 
slacktide said:
Here’s three more dudes who went to jail. Shall I keep going?
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Hmm... I suppose not. But lets look at these.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article2619084.html
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Convicted of identity theft. I'm pretty sure identity theft is a different crime than flying without a cert no? You're right he also admitted to flying without a cert, but that ain't why he went to the hoosegow.

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/article_0cd7f5cc-2eaf-11e8-9e7e-ab8186706025.html
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I'll admit you got me dead to rights on this one. He flew for possibly as long as 40 years wth no cert, had been warned not to by the FAA many times and in the end, did 336 hours in the clink for his crime. Justice, as they say, was most definitely served. :rolleyes:

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangl...ntenced-for-tax-evasion-serving-as-pilot.html[/QUOTE]DId 21 months for tax evasion and flying a 4 occasions without a cert. Lets take the tax evasion off the table. How much time would he have done then? My guess is exactly 0 months. You can go ahead and claim otherwise but you can also pull the other one and hear a nice rendition of jingle bells.

So yeah on second thought, by all means, please keep going.
 
When a private stole a UH-1 in 1974 and landed it on the White House lawn the Army put ignition keys in all aircraft...the exact same key for all...satisfied the do something about it crowd with minimal impact...same thing for 1008/09 trucks and blazers one key started the fleet...that’s why units chained the stearing wheel...you could suffer UCMJ issues if caught with a spare...but you just did not get caught and unauthorized use of say Air Force trucks was a non problem...just put it back where they could find it.
 
TipTanks said:
Where did you get that from?
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I don't recall exactly, but I read an article last month that American's regionals will quit flying the dash 8s and the article went on to speculate that turboprops were not long for the future, system wide, and gave reasons why. I believe it was an aviation news outlet and not just a general news outlet.

I'm too lazy to go looking for it because it's just not that important and, besides, it was just a joke.
 
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Palmpilot said:
And if they find out that there are airplanes that can take off from farmers' fields, will they be demanding ten-foot fences around those?
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You don't want to know the answer to that, but I know you already do. Last night, my wife's friend was concerned about the lack of security and as she worried aloud to me the conversation eventually ended up on GA airports. I tried to explain about trucks being capable of carrying far greater payloads but I could see her wheels churning about the dangers that lurk at "Dayton South" (Wright Bros for you Ohioans - I've never heard it called that).
 
timwinters said:
I don't recall exactly but I read an article last month that American's regionals will quit flying the dash 8s and the article went on to speculate that turboprops were not long for the future system wide and gave reasons why. It was an aviation news outlet and not just a general news outlet.

I'm too lazy to go looking for it because it's just not that important and, besides, it was just a joke.
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Dash 8s no longer operate in the US. The Q is the big brother of the Dash 8s.

Dash -8s were actually comfortable as the seats were late 80s style and sizes. However, the planes were very old and insanely loud. My first flight in one, about a year or so ago, I notice the FA putting in ear plugs. I laughed to myself until the crew poured on the coals. I couldn't hear myself think as it was stupidly loud.
 
The Q is just a rebranding of the Dash 8 200/ 300 / 400 series. It's like calling a DC-9-80 an MD-80.

You can't say a Q is bigger than a Dash 8. It's nonsensical (and the size depends on which Q model you're talking about).

There aren't a lot of Dash 8's or Q's of any form flying in the US. Most of the regionals have gone to RJs of some flavor. Mesa, Republic, etc... had Dash 8's of some flavor but they've all dumped them. Horizon is one of the last, Era up in Alaska is another. There are still a bunch of Canadian carriers flying them (and they're popular in India as well).
 
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I did hear that he towed it onto the runway....lots of rumours out there.
 
TipTanks said:
I did hear that he towed it onto the runway....lots of rumours out there.
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I just watched a press conference and Seattle's aviation director was giving out information. He said the perp spun it 180 with a tug...or a "push-back tractor" as he called it.
 
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