Passenger Carrying Currency Expiration?

N801BH said:
Clock is my term for calendar days........


Leave it to Ron to use a bizzare term like "look-back".....
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Actually, "look-back" is the correct and far more accurate term for every form of currency where the reg says "during the preceding..." days or months.

You know - "preceding" as in before or looking back to the past?

The majority of questions I've seen on aviation boards about passenger, instrument and flight review currency wouldn't have been asked if the questioner understood this basic and simple concept.

My question is, what would happen, should your passenger currency 'lapse', because you did not complete your 3 takeoffs and landings within 90 days? Does this mean after 90 days you have to go up with an instructor and do them? Or can you still complete the 3 takeoffs and landings after the 90 day period?
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The rest of them involve trying to find requirements in them that don't exist.
 
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Remember that 90 days are counted separately for day/ night requirements
 
and I say that would be exploiting a wording gap in 61.57a, but to each his own.
 
Jaybird180 said:
and I say that would be exploiting a wording gap in 61.57a, but to each his own.
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And you would be wrong. Regulations are written on what we can't do, not what we can do. No exploitation at all. It's also the reason that you can fly 6 approaches in a twin, and be instrument current in a single.

Do you really want the regs to say "and you can't take passengers unless you've landed on grass, or with a crosswind, or on a runway with non-standard marking, at a towered field..." ?
 
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EdFred said:
And you would be wrong. Regulations are written on what we can't do, not what we can do. No exploitation at all. It's also the reason that you can fly 6 approaches in a twin, and be instrument current in a single.

Do you really want the regs to say "and you can't take passengers unless you've landed on grass, or with a crosswind, or on a runway with non-standard marking, at a towered field..." ?
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Take a look at 61.57. Okay, now delete section B and tell me what is required for carrying passengers.

Functionally, I agree with you, and would NEVER consider writing to the Chief Counsel about it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Take a look at 61.57. Okay, now delete section B and tell me what is required for carrying passengers.

Functionally, I agree with you, and would NEVER consider writing to the Chief Counsel about it.
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Yeah but b. is night specific, a. is "general experience". If you're night current, you've met the requirement of "general experience".

That's my interpretation but I'm in no way an expert on the regs nor am I affiliated with the FAA:D
 
Jaybird180 said:
Take a look at 61.57. Okay, now delete section B and tell me what is required for carrying passengers.

Functionally, I agree with you, and would NEVER consider writing to the Chief Counsel about it.
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3 landings in category and class, and it also specifically says for a tailwheel it must be done in a tailwheel. Note that it does not say that trike gear must be done in a trike. Same reason why it's not an exploitation for day - it doesn't specifically say day.
 
It's no different than letting your annual lapse on your plane. As long as you don't fly it, no harm. Get it back in annual and you are good to go. No punishment for not doing it on time, you just can't fly.
 
N801BH said:
Clock is my term for calendar days........


Leave it to Ron to use a bizzare term like "look-back".....
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It's a standard term in the military for sure, and elsewhere in my experience. It's also the most descriptive term for how the system works.
 
JeffDG said:
Unless you have some kind of interruption in your ride (let's say you have to go back and do the "Short Field" cause you blew it), then the checkride effectively (while not necessarily because of the checkride, but because of what you did on the checkride) gives you 90 days of day currency. Unless your checkride was at night (is that even possible??), it does nothing for your night passenger currency.
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As I said, most PP checkrides include at least 3 takeoffs and 3 landings, but it's at least theoretically possible to get it done in less, in which case you have to look back to the last takeoff and last landing before the ride for currency purposes. Unlike the flight review rule, the checkride itself does not count for anything in this matter, only the takeoffs and landings you made during that checkride.
 
Something that hasn't been addressed: It seems the rule is to keep you from getting rusty. If I've been flying for 89 days carrying passengers, when I hit my 90 days, it seems silly that I would have to go do 3 TO/L solo. 61.57(a)(1)(i) says must be sole manipulator of the controls (which implies you can have passengers), but then section (2) says "a person may act as PIC provided no persons are carried on board the aircraft."

So I'm just a little confused because it seems like you could meet this currency by flying routinely, but then it sounds like in the regs, you have to go up solo periodically...
 
jdawg1223 said:
Something that hasn't been addressed: It seems the rule is to keep you from getting rusty. If I've been flying for 89 days carrying passengers, when I hit my 90 days, it seems silly that I would have to go do 3 TO/L solo. 61.57(a)(1)(i) says must be sole manipulator of the controls (which implies you can have passengers), but then section (2) says "a person may act as PIC provided no persons are carried on board the aircraft."

So I'm just a little confused because it seems like you could meet this currency by flying routinely, but then it sounds like in the regs, you have to go up solo periodically...
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No. It's ANY 3 takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days. If you have flown for 89 straight days doing take offs and landings (whether solo or not) you're more than legally current*

*tailwheel and night caveats excluded.
 
jdawg1223 said:
Something that hasn't been addressed: It seems the rule is to keep you from getting rusty. If I've been flying for 89 days carrying passengers, when I hit my 90 days, it seems silly that I would have to go do 3 TO/L solo. 61.57(a)(1)(i) says must be sole manipulator of the controls (which implies you can have passengers), but then section (2) says "a person may act as PIC provided no persons are carried on board the aircraft."

So I'm just a little confused because it seems like you could meet this currency by flying routinely, but then it sounds like in the regs, you have to go up solo periodically...
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First post...................:yes:


Welcome to POA...:cheers:
 
danielr said:
Just got my Private Pilot's License! The carrying of passengers is my main focus, as my continuation of receiving other certifications and ratings will exempt me from having to take a biannual flight review.

I am familiar with the rules regarding the 3 takeoffs and landings within the preceding 90 days (and to a full stop at night, and with a tail-wheel airplane).

My question is, what would happen, should your passenger currency 'lapse', because you did not complete your 3 takeoffs and landings within 90 days? Does this mean after 90 days you have to go up with an instructor and do them? Or can you still complete the 3 takeoffs and landings after the 90 day period?

To my knowledge, nothing is mentioned in the FAR's regarding this.

Thanks.
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Remember that the FARs prohibit actions, they do not permit them. Anything that is not specifically prohibited is legal. Can you imaginethe size of the book(s) it would take to list all of the things pilots are allowed to do?

To answer your question, tell your passengers to kill time drinking coffee or whatever while you go up and get current.

Bob Gardner
 
jdawg1223 said:
Thanks EdFred. And yes Ben, first post. Just did my checkride yesterday!
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Congrats on the check ride...:cheers:..


Now,, if you looked close at the POA rules you would have seen that ALL new members have to send ALL existing members 10 bucks as an initiation fee....

:eek:........................








Jus kiddin.....;)



It is actually 20 bucks.....:yikes::D
 
I want to add more confusion to this thread.

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.
(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.
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(2) seems to be superfluous, since (1) only addresss carrying passengers.

(b) however, omits this information.

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and— (i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
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Of course, given the fact that (b) only addresses carrying passengers, it would seem that one could meet the takeoff/landing requirements solo. I just find it odd that they put that verbage under paragraph (a) but not (b)
 
bobmrg said:
Remember that the FARs prohibit actions, they do not permit them. Anything that is not specifically prohibited is legal.
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To a certain extent, yes, but not completely. In a case a long time ago where the sole charge was 91.13 careless/reckless, and there was no reg which specifically prohibited the pilot's exact action, the NTSB said in upholding the enforcement action something very close to this: "It is neither necessary nor possible for the Administrator anticipate and prohibit all actions which might compromise safety." IOW, you can't make the regs foolproof since fools are so bloody inventive. In that regard, if you're thinking about doing something which is not specifically prohibited by the regulations, but upon further consideration you realize that it might be contrary to common sense and a prudent pilot's concept of safe operation (i.e., if it were the first sentence in an accident report most folks would say "what an idiot"), you might want to let the thought perish unconverted into action.
 
No no no. There must be a rule for everything.

Please inquire of the FAA Chief Counsel's office about every contradiction, discrepancy, or omission in the FARs every time you come across one.

Only when every possible scenario is covered by a made-up regulation on a lawyer's letterhead, will the world be truly safe.

The FAA has proven every time without a shadow of doubt that every decision made by the Chief Counsel's Office has saved millions of lives in the first 24 hours of implementation of their opinion.

Only you can save us all. Send every question you ever think up to the Chief Counsel for "clarification". If you don't, hoardes of loophole jumping pilots will kill defenseless baby seals in the parking lot and leave toddlers in hot cars until they expire.

Really, it's in the Nall Report. I wouldn't lie.

;) ;) ;)
 
bobmrg said:
To answer your question, tell your passengers to kill time drinking coffee or whatever while you go up and get current.
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(Not exactly in response to Bob, the comment was made before as well.)

Although this would meet the regulations, if the passengers you are flying are new to light aircraft, like taking family up for the first time, or the neighbors and their kid, etc., then I advise a different approach.

Essentially what they will hear, regardless of how much explaining you try to do, is this: "I haven't flown in a while, so I'm rusty. In fact, so much so that the FAA requires me to do a few practice landings by myself before we can go flying. But don't worry, I'll do the bare minimum to be legal, and then we'll go fly. So just relax, have some coffee, and I'll rush through this as fast as I can so we can go fly. There's nothing to worry about. Wait, why are you looking so nervous now?"

Not exactly confidence-inspiring for a new passenger. I recommend you get your currency back the day before, or the hour before, or whatever, when they're not around so that it doesn't even become an issue of discussion.
 
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