PA-32R down near Kingston, ON

David Megginson

David Megginson

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The crash location is under the ILS 19 approach into CYGK. Multiple fatalities (the story says PA-32, but other reports said PA-32R):

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5376322

We've had suface temperatures hovering just above or below 0c for the last couple of days in Eastern Ontario, with warm air overrunning and constant drizzle or rain—don't know if it was a factor here, but they're ideal conditions for SLD clear icing aloft. :(
 
Texas pilot, family among victims of plane crash in Kingston, Ont.

A pilot from Houston, Texas, his family and two other adults died in a small plane crash in Kingston, Ont., Wednesday evening, CBC News has learned.
Dead are Otabek Oblokulov, his wife, their children ages three, 11 and 15, and another adult couple, two friends of the victims told CBC.
The six-seater Piper PA-32 was flying to Kingston from Buttonville Municipal Airport in Markham, Ont., when it crashed sometime around 5 p.m. ET, according to the Transportation Safety Board (TSB).
It came down approximately 5.5 to 7.5 kilometres north of its destination. There were no survivors...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/otta...estigation-1.5376446?cmp=FEED_PROG_popularnow
 
That’s a lot of ppl in that plane add some ice to the mix and slowing to approach speeds could easily stall it. God bless sucks to see a family go down.
 
benyflyguy said:
That’s a lot of ppl in that plane add some ice to the mix and slowing to approach speeds could easily stall it. God bless sucks to see a family go down.
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Are you familiar with the Cherokee Six? I’ve got Six time, it’s a workhorse. I hate to Monday morning quarterback, but given the details so far, I would not think the plane in question was anywhere near overloaded. Now, if you tell me all we’re adults, with a tone of luggage or freight, I’d want to see that W&B.

No matter, I have my thoughts, but will prudently await the determination of the Canadian authorities investigation.

Condolences to the families involved.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Are you familiar with the Cherokee Six? I’ve got Six time, it’s a workhorse. I hate to Monday morning quarterback, but given the details so far, I would not think the plane in question was anywhere near overloaded. Now, if you tell me all we’re adults, with a tone of luggage or freight, I’d want to see that W&B.

No matter, I have my thoughts, but will prudently await the determination of the Canadian authorities investigation.

Condolences to the families involved.
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Four adults, kids 3, 11 and 15, plus, I'm assuming, some baggage, in a 1965 Piper PA-32-260.
 
Hi all,
New here from AOPA site.
Does anyone know the weather at the time of the crash? I hate hearing about whole families being lost in these holiday crashes.RIP
 
People always parrot the useful load of the six-260, while the power loading number just flies right over their heads. "Useful" load, to be quite frank, is a very specious concept in this hobby.

IMO, the six 260 has no business being certified at the same gross weight as the six-300. In order to preserve the same power loading, a six 260 would have to be flown at 2938#. A non-starter for most six-260 owners for sure. Even six-300/lance owners freely admit their airplanes at MGW are not exactly Saturn V rockets above 5K DA. A good compromise imo would be reduce the MGW by one adult, 200#. 3200# MGW would still be decent utility for an 1800ish# EW airplane like a six-260.
 
Midwestrv10 said:
Hi all,
New here from AOPA site.
Does anyone know the weather at the time of the crash? I hate hearing about whole families being lost in these holiday crashes.RIP
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During the 48 hours leading up to the crash, we were under pre-warm-front-ish conditions in Eastern Ontario, with surface temps hovering just below or above freezing, solid low overcast, and widespread rain and drizzle, with occasional freezing-rain advisories. I'd have expected SLD icing almost over the whole region. No one I know was heading for the airport.
 
Also, correction to the subject line: early reports said PA-32R, but as others have mentioned, it was a fixed-gear PA-32, the pilot's first plane after getting a PPL in 2018. :(
 
VFR, newish Pilot, one hour after dark, crappy weather, trying to get somewhere for the holidays. That’s what I heard anyway.
 
That is so sad, weather doesn't negotiate and hope isn't a plan.
Again, prayers to the families of all those involved.
 
David Megginson said:
Also, correction to the subject line: early reports said PA-32R, but as others have mentioned, it was a fixed-gear PA-32, the pilot's first plane after getting a PPL in 2018. :(
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sourdough44 said:
VFR, newish Pilot, one hour after dark, crappy weather, trying to get somewhere for the holidays. That’s what I heard anyway.
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How utterly tragic, but also senseless. I am going to speculate, something we all do to some extent.

I suspect the pilot had every intention of arriving at his destination before dark. I assume they were in Kingston to visit friends or relatives, and, as happens to all of us, time slipped away. Gathering up seven people and their belongings, driving to the airport, and preparing for departure must have been time consuming.

The 150 mile distance between Kingston and the Toronto area was a short hop, and perhaps the pilot considered the flight an easy one. As late afternoon approached, he may have failed to consider the effects of darkness and weather appropriately. After all, Toronto was less than 90 minutes away.

The crash occurred in the metro Toronto area, just a few minutes of flying time from the Buttonville airport, a medium sized facility that caters to GA. Did the pilot allow his airspeed to decay while searching for the airport among the lights of the metro area?

I speculate and ask these questions because the known facts reveal poor decisions by the newly licensed and inexperienced pilot. There were seven people in a six seat aircraft, which immediately raises the suspicion it was overloaded beyond weight and balance limits. The crash occurred well after dark, and a POA member posted above that weather conditions in the area were marginal for VFR flight.

Pushing all that aside, I have empathy for the families and friends of those lost. The crash of any aircraft is a horrible experience for the survivors.
 
3393RP said:
How utterly tragic, but also senseless. I am going to speculate, something we all do to some extent.

I suspect the pilot had every intention of arriving at his destination before dark. I assume they were in Kingston to visit friends or relatives, and, as happens to all of us, time slipped away. Gathering up seven people and their belongings, driving to the airport, and preparing for departure must have been time consuming.

The 150 mile distance between Kingston and the Toronto area was a short hop, and perhaps the pilot considered the flight an easy one. As late afternoon approached, he may have failed to consider the effects of darkness and weather appropriately. After all, Toronto was less than 90 minutes away.

The crash occurred in the metro Toronto area, just a few minutes of flying time from the Buttonville airport, a medium sized facility that caters to GA. Did the pilot allow his airspeed to decay while searching for the airport among the lights of the metro area?

I speculate and ask these questions because the known facts reveal poor decisions by the newly licensed and inexperienced pilot. There were seven people in a six seat aircraft, which immediately raises the suspicion it was overloaded beyond weight and balance limits. The crash occurred well after dark, and a POA member posted above that weather conditions in the area were marginal for VFR flight.

Pushing all that aside, I have empathy for the families and friends of those lost. The crash of any aircraft is a horrible experience for the survivors.
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The airplane departed Toronto and crashed while landing in Kingston, not the other way around. It was 5pm, so it was not totally dark. There was a wind advisory and poor visibility, so CFIT is a likely possibility.
 
Oops, got it backwards.

A search indicates sunset in Kingston on the accident date was at 4:30 PM, and last light was at 5:04 PM. Since the sky was overcast, I'm going to say nighttime conditions existed at the time of the accident.

But my thoughts on the accident are generally the same.
 
3393RP said:
Oops, got it backwards.

A search indicates sunset in Kingston on the accident date was at 4:30 PM, and last light was at 5:04 PM. Since the sky was overcast, I'm going to say nighttime conditions existed at the time of the accident.

But my thoughts on the accident are generally the same.
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I can confirm that in Ottawa, (to the northeast of Kingston) the thick, low cloud made it seem like twilight by about 3:30 pm on Wednesday.
 
sarangan said:
The airplane departed Toronto and crashed while landing in Kingston, not the other way around. It was 5pm, so it was not totally dark. There was a wind advisory and poor visibility, so CFIT is a likely possibility.
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And according to some reports the planned destination was actually Quebec City but the pilot diverted to Kingston en route.
 
sarangan said:
Was this flight VFR or IFR?
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I don't know. The (Canadian) TSB doesn't usually release as much preliminary information as the NTSB does. Without jumping to conclusions about this specific accident, I think it would have been hard to avoid SLD icing in Eastern Ontario at IFR altitudes on Wednesday, and I wouldn't have wanted to try it in any piston aircraft, even in a twin with FIKI. But maybe conditions were a bit better close to Lake Ontario than they were inland. Sometimes you get a good-weather corridor there.
 
It appeared to be a parade of problems. High winds, heavy weight, scud running and marginal weather for a VFR only pilot.

sarangan said:
Was this flight VFR or IFR?
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VFR. I believe he wasn't instrument rated.

David Megginson said:
I didn't want to jump to that conclusion, because I got my instrument rating 11 months after my PPL (with my night rating—a separate rating in Canada—between the two).
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Yeah, VFR and not instrument rated. Not that being in any sort of cloud layer would have been a good idea for even an IFR pilot in a Cherokee Six in those conditions
 
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