PA-28 crashes on takeoff near Albany NY

James331 said:
NY is easy peasy! No DA issues, no REAL mountains, no crazy winds, shy of a baren sea level wasteland, it's pretty safe in NY as long as you don't play with ice in a non FIKI.
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I've been in NY a month ago, and had to cancel for winds. They were blowing from the lake gusting 40 - whole day without letting up. Add to it endless issues with clouds, and it gets pretty annoying even in summer. The previous time back in March, Rochester departure sent me into a mail slot between overcast and the hills south of town. I requested a turn west 3 times and just about reached for the PTT button to say "unable to maintain assigned heading", when they relented.
 
Bonchie said:
Well, for starters, no one said "3 pax = overweight in a PA28" as an absolute.

I've flown 4 people in a Warrior as well. 3 in a 140. But that was with fuel to the tabs and we were pushing gross. It was also 50 degrees outside.

Anytime there are 4 adults and possibly full fuel on a PA-28, weight and performance could be an issue. Especially on a hot summer day. Your 3 people you cite are very much underweight compared to normal people and this plane had two large men on it, one judging by pictures that was easily 200 pounds.
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While I'm incredibly flattered that you consider me underweight, I actually fall in the "normal" weight range for a 5'7" female. My pax all fall in the normal weight for their heights/sex as well. I just thought it was odd that people would assume four people in a PA28 automatically means it's over gw.

It does sound like in this case they likely exceeded the weight limit. Unless two of the pax were small children, I don't see how a PA28 could have a 200 lb person+ three other adults. And on a hot day with a short runway... definitely a recipe for a bad situation.
 
My pa-28-181 has 716# of payload remaining with the tanks filled. 4 adults is possible but not with any particularly large persons. I think even on a warm day 3000' would be doable but I'd crack open the POH and calculate it to be sure if it was me.
 
cowman said:
My pa-28-181 has 716# of payload remaining with the tanks filled. 4 adults is possible but not with any particularly large persons. I think even on a warm day 3000' would be doable but I'd crack open the POH and calculate it to be sure if it was me.
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1016 useful load is pretty killer for an Archer.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
While I'm incredibly flattered that you consider me underweight, I actually fall in the "normal" weight range for a 5'7" female. My pax all fall in the normal weight for their heights/sex as well. I just thought it was odd that people would assume four people in a PA28 automatically means it's over gw.

It does sound like in this case they likely exceeded the weight limit. Unless two of the pax were small children, I don't see how a PA28 could have a 200 lb person+ three other adults. And on a hot day with a short runway... definitely a recipe for a bad situation.
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I think by "underweight" he was simply referring to what the FAA considers an average person. If you were were 6'10" and weighed 200 lbs you might be considered severely underweight but your plane and the FAA still think you're above average weight.

I had a Cherokee 180 for about a year. Loved the plane. My useful was about 960 and I could carry fuel to the tabs and 3 pax if we all averaged out to "average size" (170 lbs). However, toss in a 90 degree day and I'd use up about 2500'+ of that asphalt before gently getting her off the ground and slowly climbing.
 
speaking of FAA average person. In my whole circle of friends and acquaintances. I only know a handful of men that are 170 lbs or less.
 
James331 said:
Stats also factor in the dumb chits of the world, and you get away with a lot more stupid in a car then a plane.

In my experience, I've had more "this is going to be close" moments driving, almost getting side swiped, stuff jumping infront of me, ice on the roads, etc etc.

Flying, not so much, the only time I've gotten into one of those situations was flying into new backcountry spots, which I knew ahead of time and it was calculated.

Also from what I see at work, lots of other toys killing folks, ATVs, high power sleds, ski, snowboard, tree stands, etc
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True...all good points - always good to hear from the veterans in terms of how they view these things...
 
Wouldn't go as far as to say I'm a veteran, but I for sure have had more close calls in cars and motorcycles than in airplanes, and I'm not exactly doing fast and the furious out here lol

And out of all the folks I've seen at work, heart attacks, strokes, medical resp failure, and auto accidents, in that order, are the top contenders
 
CC268 said:
Man...sometimes I wonder if it's worth the risk...can't believe how many of these pop up every week
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Death is inevitable, whether you spend your life in front of the T.V. in your house or you go out and have fun.
 
I fly the Arrow III on a regular basis and really don't consider it a 4 person airplane. On a hot day with full fuel, 2 people is enough to make it climb rather lethargically. 4 adults, at tabs or more with high temperatures, looking for trouble, imo.
 
midcap said:
speaking of FAA average person. In my whole circle of friends and acquaintances. I only know a handful of men that are 170 lbs or less.
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Interesting. More than half my (male) friends are under 170. I'm in Nevada so maybe it varies by region.
 
DesertNomad said:
Interesting. More than half my (male) friends are under 170. I'm in Nevada so maybe it varies by region.
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Probably varies by age too. It's much more common to gain weight every year than it is to lose it.

I'm 29 and am passing through the FAA standard male weight.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Death is inevitable, whether you spend your life in front of the T.V. in your house or you go out and have fun.
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I understand your point... but some ways of dying are worse than others. So I choose to have fun but die in my sleep one day, or during a strenuous orgy that would be okay. Plane crash? No thanks. It's not going to stop me flying though.
 
ripnet said:
RIP
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Damn. RIP.

I was at that BBQ + took off from the 2k' paved strip about 3 hrs prior. S*it.

Tim + family are wonderful folks. Horrible all around.

Prayers to all.
 
KFD said:
I understand your point... but some ways of dying are worse than others. So I choose to have fun but die in my sleep one day, or during a strenuous orgy that would be okay. Plane crash? No thanks. It's not going to stop me flying though.
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Die in your sleep, well it doesn't always work out that way.

Say you're super old,

presuming you're lucky enough not to get shipped off to a nursing home,

let say you're just about to die in your sleep, your kid checks in on ya, OMG!!! Dad isn't breathing!

Panics and calls 911, they come in push a bunch of drugs, shock you a few times, crack a few ribs doing CPR, get you back, now you're "alive" being transported to a hospitable.

Once in the ED, and later on another floor, they will keep you alive for quite a while, tubes in all places you didn't think a tube should go, once you're stable, but still bed ridden, they'll ship you off to a long term care facility, you'll spend the rest of your longer than you would like life, crapping yourself in a little bed, racking up money for the hospitals, money which will come out of your estate leaving nothing for your loved ones once you, God willing, finally die.


That's what living a long and "safe" life can reward you with, probability wise this is more likley than a stall spin in your favorite 172. I'm not saying I want to die in a fireball, just saying between probability and how life tends to work out, don't worry about airplanes.


Now death by orgy, I'm cool with that ;)
 
steingar said:
No, I'm posting from beyond the grave.

In all seriousness, the airplane performed just fine. The takeoff was slow since we were at gross, and I did have to circle to get above the local peaks to get on my way. I'd be surprised if an Arrow had that much trouble, those have even more ponies than my aircraft. But it does depend on who the passengers were. If they were all women, no problem. If they were all big men (but he pilot) it could have been problematic.
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I don't know. The first time I flew an Arrow I was departing from KPLU to the south in July. 2 on board with fuel at tabs and as I approached the rising terrain I actually lifted my feet. We had plenty of altitude of course but the climb rate was less and the sight picture very different from the C172 I normally flew. (PA28R-180)
 
James331 said:
Die in your sleep, well it doesn't always work out that way.

Say you're super old,

presuming you're lucky enough not to get shipped off to a nursing home,

let say you're just about to die in your sleep, your kid checks in on ya, OMG!!! Dad isn't breathing!

Panics and calls 911, they come in push a bunch of drugs, shock you a few times, crack a few ribs doing CPR, get you back, now you're "alive" being transported to a hospitable.

Once in the ED, and later on another floor, they will keep you alive for quite a while, tubes in all places you didn't think a tube should go, once you're stable, but still bed ridden, they'll ship you off to a long term care facility, you'll spend the rest of your longer than you would like life, crapping yourself in a little bed, racking up money for the hospitals, money which will come out of your estate leaving nothing for your loved ones once you, God willing, finally die.


That's what living a long and "safe" life can reward you with, probability wise this is more likley than a stall spin in your favorite 172. I'm not saying I want to die in a fireball, just saying between probability and how life tends to work out, don't worry about airplanes.


Now death by orgy, I'm cool with that ;)
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^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^
 
Yeahbut if I had the choice of dying at 40 in an airplane crash or 90 in a nursing home, I'm picking 90, and I know what that looks like.
 
KFD said:
I understand your point... but some ways of dying are worse than others. So I choose to have fun but die in my sleep one day, or during a strenuous orgy that would be okay. Plane crash? No thanks. It's not going to stop me flying though.
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You really don't get to choose How you die. I'm sure the pilots that passed away didn't think or choose to die in an airplane today. You could die in a car accident tomorrow, (I don't wish that upon you). IMO That is why I try to enjoy my life everyday. You are not guaranteed tomorrow, plan for it yes but don't be 100% sure you will get there because you just might not.
 
Everskyward said:
Yeahbut if I had the choice of dying at 40 in an airplane crash or 90 in a nursing home, I'm picking 90, and I know what that looks like.
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IMO 90 in a nursing home sucks if you didn't go out and experience all that you wanted to do when you were younger.
 
FloridaPilot said:
IMO 90 in a nursing home sucks if you didn't go out and experience all that you wanted to do when you were younger.
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Who said you didn't? It might or might not have included flying.
 
Everskyward said:
Who said you didn't? It might or might not have included flying.
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You did! Not many options to "Live life" in a nursing home. There you are pretty much waiting to die. Quite a few 80-90 year olds are still out there living life. My great grandparents for example they lived to 100, (Both passed a few months apart). The key is to stay active. Sitting in a nursing home IMO is no way to live.
 
James331 said:
Die in your sleep, well it doesn't always work out that way.

Say you're super old,

presuming you're lucky enough not to get shipped off to a nursing home,

let say you're just about to die in your sleep, your kid checks in on ya, OMG!!! Dad isn't breathing!

Panics and calls 911, they come in push a bunch of drugs, shock you a few times, crack a few ribs doing CPR, get you back, now you're "alive" being transported to a hospitable.

Once in the ED, and later on another floor, they will keep you alive for quite a while, tubes in all places you didn't think a tube should go, once you're stable, but still bed ridden, they'll ship you off to a long term care facility, you'll spend the rest of your longer than you would like life, crapping yourself in a little bed, racking up money for the hospitals, money which will come out of your estate leaving nothing for your loved ones once you, God willing, finally die.


That's what living a long and "safe" life can reward you with, probability wise this is more likley than a stall spin in your favorite 172. I'm not saying I want to die in a fireball, just saying between probability and how life tends to work out, don't worry about airplanes.


Now death by orgy, I'm cool with that ;)
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That's why I have a living will stating no heroics. No keeping me alive by machine. Give it one shot and if that doesn't do it, let me go.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Death is inevitable, whether you spend your life in front of the T.V. in your house or you go out and have fun.
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Yea I guess sometimes I wonder if I'd rather die on the couch or die a brutal death like a plane crash...
 
Zeldman said:
That's why I have a living will stating no heroics. No keeping me alive by machine. Give it one shot and if that doesn't do it, let me go.
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That doesn't always work.

Especially if a family member freaks out and calls EMS "OMG!! Don't let him die" yup
 
Tattoo DNR on your chest.
 
James331 said:
Say you're super old,
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Dad was 98.

presuming you're lucky enough not to get shipped off to a nursing home,
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He endured that hell for 4 years. He had become functionally blind and deaf, incontinent too. So he had zero quality of life.

let say you're just about to die in your sleep, your kid checks in on ya, OMG!!! Dad isn't breathing!

Panics and calls 911, they come in push a bunch of drugs, shock you a few times, crack a few ribs doing CPR, get you back, now you're "alive" being transported to a hospitable.

Once in the ED, and later on another floor, they will keep you alive for quite a while, tubes in all places you didn't think a tube should go, once you're stable, but still bed ridden, they'll ship you off to a long term care facility, you'll spend the rest of your longer than you would like life, crapping yourself in a little bed, racking up money for the hospitals, money which will come out of your estate leaving nothing for your loved ones once you, God willing, finally die.
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Precisely why Dad and the rest of the family now has a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in place with all his MDs and the Nursing Home Administrators. He did finally pass away in his sleep. We all wish it would have happened sooner. And yes it has all but broken the bank - my 95 year old Mother will soon be a ward of Title 19...

That's what living a long and "safe" life can reward you with, probability wise this is more likley than a stall spin in your favorite 172. I'm not saying I want to die in a fireball, just saying between probability and how life tends to work out, don't worry about airplanes.


Now death by orgy, I'm cool with that ;)
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Every one of us needs detailed instructions for the caretakers and family members to avoid being sucked into the maw of the medical end-of-life business. Also I highly recommend the book "Being Mortal" by Atun Gawande. It is a quick read but quite compelling.

-Skip
 
steingar said:
Had a Cherokee for about a decade. Acquired the Mooney last August. LOVE the Mooney, since it is so much faster. Just a bit busier to take off, and more difficult to land.
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just had a brain fart. I've seen you on mooneyspace. I knew I recognized your name but couldn't remember where. duh.
 
FloridaPilot said:
You did! Not many options to "Live life" in a nursing home. There you are pretty much waiting to die. Quite a few 80-90 year olds are still out there living life. My great grandparents for example they lived to 100, (Both passed a few months apart). The key is to stay active. Sitting in a nursing home IMO is no way to live.
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The two options I stated were, die at 40 in an airplane crash, and die at 90 in a nursing home. I did not include, die suddenly at 90 doing sonething you enjoy.

Frankly, I think we toss around platitudes when people die in airplane crashes because we want to justify our decisions to participate in the same activity. But I don't think the people who it happens to have those thoughts in the last instant of their lives.
 
Everskyward said:
Frankly, I think we toss around platitudes when people die in airplane crashes because we want to justify our decisions to participate in the same activity. But I don't think the people who it happens to have those thoughts in the last instant of their lives.
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Of course we make justifications humans are great at this. "It won't happen to me" "It's always the other guy" "I would never do that"

Fact is if we didn't most folks (with the exception of those who have a reason not to fear death) would lay around the house in the fetal position afraid to do anything if we really thought about how fragile our existence on this earth was.
 
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