Overnight Rental

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
Does anyone here have experience taking a rental plane overnight? I have rented from two FBO's. The first one charged 3.0 hours minimum for an overnight rental. I am going to check with the second one.

We just found out my wife's younger sister is getting married in SLC in September. I am trying to convince my wife that we should rent a plane and fly there. Currently my options for renting would be an Archer III, or a 172N. I am super excited about the possibility of making a long cross country flight like this. So far, the farthest I have flown from home is 113 nm (KCHD to KSAD). This would be quite a bit farther (450 nm - KCHD to U42).

Since I have a few months, another option would be to get checked out in a plane with a little more performance. Of the two FBO's I rent from there is an Arrow and Dakota available. I would have to get the proper endorsements to fly those.
 
Yeah...the three hours per day is standard for an overnight...but guess what...everything is negotiable. They would rather have the plane flying and earning something than sitting if there are no reservations scheduled.

Talk to the FBO.
 
Ask them to waive the minimum. The worst they can do is say no. But I've found that people often agree to that, unless the aircraft is in high demand.
 
Lots of places do longer term rentals. Almost all of them I have seen have a minimum flight hours per day as part of the contract.



My local FBO will let me take the plane I am training in (Archer II) for an overnight with no specific flight times, but for say a three say weekend I believe it is 2 hours per day wet. I bring in receipts for gas I had to buy, and they take that off the rental price... up to a per gallon limit on cost of course.
 
You'll be more likely to get a waiver of the minimum on the Dakota or the Arrow, since they are rarely used for primary training so the FBO isn't giving up as much.

You're looking at 6-7 hours just to got there and back, so if you're doing it with one away night the minimum won't matter. If you're going up the day before and back the day after you might be held up for an extra 2 hours, in which case to take the scenic route to make sure you come back as close to 9 hours as possible.

Definitely spin the prop for the entire time you're paying for :)
 
evapilotaz said:
Hey get some pictures of Flying over Temple Square for me if you do this. Please !!! Unless its a Restricted no fly zone.
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It looks like it is right on the edge of the Bravo. The Bravo is on the West and there are Mountains on the East. You can do the Bravo transition which would put you at 1800 to 3300 AGL depending on the altitude they assign you.
 
rolivi said:
You'll be more likely to get a waiver of the minimum on the Dakota or the Arrow, since they are rarely used for primary training so the FBO isn't giving up as much.

You're looking at 6-7 hours just to got there and back, so if you're doing it with one away night the minimum won't matter. If you're going up the day before and back the day after you might be held up for an extra 2 hours, in which case to take the scenic route to make sure you come back as close to 9 hours as possible.

Definitely spin the prop for the entire time you're paying for :)
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The wedding is going to be on a Thursday. We'd fly up on Wednesday, then I don't know when we'd come back. That is still up in the air. But you better believe if I am paying for the time, I am going to be flying the plane. Maybe I can go get those pictures evapilotaz wants ;)
 
azpilot said:
It looks like it is right on the edge of the Bravo. The Bravo is on the West and there are Mountains on the East. You can do the Bravo transition which would put you at 1800 to 3300 AGL depending on the altitude they assign you.
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It looks to me like it's well inside the Class B surface area. An eastbound departure out of KSLC ought to get you close, if taking off to the south. (Right) downwind departure to the south if north. So might a northbound or southbound B transition along the charted transition route. So might the I-80 transition if you can get it low enough.
 
If you fly up Wednesday and cone back Thursday, at 450nm you'll be over 3 hrs per day anyway. If you come back Friday I would try to negotiate with the FBO by telling them you'll be flying 3.5 to 4 hrs per flying day and will just about make the minimum anyway
 
Rented a 200 series Cessna for a week once, even got a discount, just depends on how many hours you project to put on

I highly doubt a overnight would be a issue for any worthy flight school, kinda a standard issue request, I'd wager it will be a min 3hr charge or something.
 
Just guessing, but the 172 will likely be difficult to get the waiver, and, tbh, you are being "selfish" to the FBO, and the CFI's, plus all the new students by taking the 172 for a few days. Think how many threads there are with people frustrated they can't get their lessons done due to scheduling.

The Arrow likely sits for days on end, with now hours.

If they have online scheduling, look at the availability of the planes. Go back a few months and add up how many hours they are booked.

I used to have access to a 172, 182, and a 210 in a club. The 172 would have 3-4 renters per day. The 182 would have 2-3 renters a week. The 210 would have 2-3 renters per month.

You take the 172 and the CFI's all go hungry for 3-4 days.
 
With my club it's a minimum of 1.5 hours per day minimum so as long as you cover the 1.5 hours on the total bill then it doesn't matter. Meaning if I'm flying on a 6 hour total rental flight over the weekend I could pick it up Friday afternoon and fly it to an airport closer to home, then leave Friday morning and come back Sunday night on our trip and then fly the plane back to the club Monday morning and still be fine on the minimums. Obviously I'd want to be mindful of other renters to make sure I'm not hogging it more than necessary, but there's not a risk of extra fees.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Just guessing, but the 172 will likely be difficult to get the waiver, and, tbh, you are being "selfish" to the FBO, and the CFI's, plus all the new students by taking the 172 for a few days. Think how many threads there are with people frustrated they can't get their lessons done due to scheduling.

The Arrow likely sits for days on end, with now hours.

If they have online scheduling, look at the availability of the planes. Go back a few months and add up how many hours they are booked.

I used to have access to a 172, 182, and a 210 in a club. The 172 would have 3-4 renters per day. The 182 would have 2-3 renters a week. The 210 would have 2-3 renters per month.

You take the 172 and the CFI's all go hungry for 3-4 days.
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First off, if they only have one plane for training and all the CFI's are gonna starve because I took the plane for a couple days then either the FBO needs to buy another plane, or they need to not allow overnights. How much someone else wants to use the plane is of zero concern to me, as I'm the one paying the bill. If they agree to rent me the plane, then it's mine for that time.

Second, if you're a CFI and you're relying on the availability of one plane for your livelihood you're not being very smart. What happens when some one has a prop strike, or otherwise bends the plane? Even when it's down for annual or other maintenance? Sorry, but if my taking the plane for the weekend effects you that much, you're being irresponsible.

My club has a 1 hour per day minimum and people use the planes for trips all the time. One plane in particular is booked 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off for one renter. The owner purchased the plane specifically because he was approached by a renter about putting a ton of hours on his other plane. He ran the numbers and bought a second plane. Now there's one more plane on the field for half of each month. That owner is a smart man.
 
I wouldn't go that far, my old school paid CFIs 45hr CASH and only had one plane, they did rather well.
 
I rented a club 172 to go to Oshkosh twice. Since it's about 7 hours flying time each way, the 2 hour minimum per day was not a problem.

Then again, there are advantages to owning your own plane.
 
I've been torn between the options of buy or rent from my local airport/FBO for the past few months. I decided to keep renting for now. They happen to have a C182 and a PA-28-235 new to the line that are very available although a little pricey. I have already used the 182(P) a couple times now and it has worked out very well. The only downside is that these airplanes are "sparsely equipped" and tend to have a few consistent non-airworthy squawks as most rentals do but they work and are safe. Since these airplanes are almost never scheduled, I've had some really nice leeway in minimum hours but I still try to put a minimum 2 hours/day on them and it has all worked out.

As for renting a 172 multi-day, I wouldn't even bother. They are just too popular and between the minimum hours and scheduling conflicts it's just too much a hassle and obvious conflict of interest for the FBO.
 
When I rented. The overnight minimum was 3hrs a day.
 
If you fly out of KCHD, check out Phoenix Flyers (non-profit flying club).
 
dans2992 said:
If you fly out of KCHD, check out Phoenix Flyers (non-profit flying club).
Click to expand...

To Join PHX flyers.

  • Initial Investment to Join:$4500.
    This is the total upfront cost for joining, which buys one share in the Phoenix Flyers club. There is aone-time, non-refundable, membership fee of $250 included in the $4500 investment.

    Monthly Dues:$125 per month
    Our monthly dues covers our fixed costs of hangar rent, insurance, and 24 hour reservation service.

    • Archer N47601
      Rate: $99.00/hour†
      Airport: Chandler Municipal Airport (KCHD)
      Power: 180 HP
      Seating: 4 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 430, Autopilot

      Read more

    • Skylane N493JL
      Rate: $132.00/hour†
      Airport: Rotates between (KCHD) & (KDVT)
      Power: 230 HP
      Seating: 4 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 530, Autopilot

      Read more

    • Comanche N9014P
      Rate: $140.00/hour†
      Airport: Rotates between (KCHD) & (KDVT)
      Power: 260 HP
      Seating: 4+2 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 430, Autopilot
All prices are based on tach-timeand include fuel and oil.
 
They also have a new (I think G1000) 182 that is not listed on their website yet.

You get the $4500 back if you ever want to leave the club.
 
StinkBug said:
First off, if they only have one plane for training and all the CFI's are gonna starve because I took the plane for a couple days then either the FBO needs to buy another plane, or they need to not allow overnights. How much someone else wants to use the plane is of zero concern to me, as I'm the one paying the bill. If they agree to rent me the plane, then it's mine for that time.

Second, if you're a CFI and you're relying on the availability of one plane for your livelihood you're not being very smart. What happens when some one has a prop strike, or otherwise bends the plane? Even when it's down for annual or other maintenance? Sorry, but if my taking the plane for the weekend effects you that much, you're being irresponsible.

My club has a 1 hour per day minimum and people use the planes for trips all the time. One plane in particular is booked 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off for one renter. The owner purchased the plane specifically because he was approached by a renter about putting a ton of hours on his other plane. He ran the numbers and bought a second plane. Now there's one more plane on the field for half of each month. That owner is a smart man.
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Well, that's selfish as heck.

There are other people in this world, you know.
 
evapilotaz said:
To Join PHX flyers.

  • Initial Investment to Join:$4500.
    This is the total upfront cost for joining, which buys one share in the Phoenix Flyers club. There is aone-time, non-refundable, membership fee of $250 included in the $4500 investment.

    Monthly Dues:$125 per month
    Our monthly dues covers our fixed costs of hangar rent, insurance, and 24 hour reservation service.

    • Archer N47601
      Rate: $99.00/hour†
      Airport: Chandler Municipal Airport (KCHD)
      Power: 180 HP
      Seating: 4 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 430, Autopilot

      Read more

    • Skylane N493JL
      Rate: $132.00/hour†
      Airport: Rotates between (KCHD) & (KDVT)
      Power: 230 HP
      Seating: 4 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 530, Autopilot

      Read more

    • Comanche N9014P
      Rate: $140.00/hour†
      Airport: Rotates between (KCHD) & (KDVT)
      Power: 260 HP
      Seating: 4+2 Place
      Navigation: IFR, Garmin GNS 430, Autopilot
All prices are based on tach-timeand include fuel and oil.
Click to expand...
So it's $4500 plus $125 per month and you still pay those rates? That seems high. Is membership in the club limited? As a comparison, Pacific Coast Flyers here in San Diego has a $75 initiation fee, $38 monthly dues, and rates that aren't much higher. I'm not tryign to take shots at that club, I just don't see what the $4500 buy in gets you if it isn't a limited membership.
 
Oh ya, I've already told my wife that if we do decide to fly that plan B will be to drive the car. I don't want to make a
dans2992 said:
If you fly out of KCHD, check out Phoenix Flyers (non-profit flying club).
Click to expand...

I have talked to them about joining. I would really like to. I am just right on the bubble of being able to fly enough to make it make sense financially. The other problem is that I am about to buy a house. I'll be putting almost $80k down on the house, and I need to make sure that is all take care of before I even think of buying an airplane, joining a club, or joining a partnership. I'll be renting for at least the next year.
 
I would pay a little extra to always have Keys to airplanes in hangers flown by private or higher rated pilots and no overnight rate. Also not having to deal with FBO rental Schedules would be a plus. I have to work the math and see if I fly enough to justify the fix cost of $125. I would consider the $4500 as like having money in a savings account. It remains untouched and If I leave the club I get that money back in return.

For what ever reason flying clubs are far few in between in AZ. I don't get it. I wish I had the means to start one up with 3 airplanes.
 
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I've talked to both FBO's I fly at. They both have a 3 hour per day minimum. However, it seemed to be somewhat flexible at both depending on the airplane and how busy they are. After doing some investigating, I'll probably try to make this flight in the Archer. We'll likely end up being gone two or three nights.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, that's selfish as heck.

There are other people in this world, you know.
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So I should never take a weekend trip in a plane I'm paying for because others might wanna fly it too? I'm sorry, I just feel that if I'm the first to reserve it and I'm operating within the rules of the people offering the rental then it should not be my concern what someone else might want. Do you go to the grocery store and NOT buy the last box of cheerios because someone else might want to eat breakfast tomorrow? If you were on vacation and there was only one rental car left would you take a cab instead so that the next guy could have a car? I think not.

thebruce said:
So it's $4500 plus $125 per month and you still pay those rates? That seems high. Is membership in the club limited? As a comparison, Pacific Coast Flyers here in San Diego has a $75 initiation fee, $38 monthly dues, and rates that aren't much higher. I'm not tryign to take shots at that club, I just don't see what the $4500 buy in gets you if it isn't a limited membership.
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That's exactly what I was thinking. Plus One (also in San Diego) is $100 to join, $30 a month, and pretty similar rates. Plus you have around 70 planes to choose from at 4 airports.
 
Also Tach Time may be as wash for Hobbs time with the higher hourly rate. From my understanding is Tach time doesn't begin until you hit a certain RPM so sitting on the ramp Taxi and Runup is not going to cost you.

Access to a 6 place would be nice for my family of 5.

Heck I might have talked myself into this.
 
Also, remember, no sales tax for Phoenix Flyers, and no need for renters insurance (as a part owner, you are covered by the clubs insurance).

The $4500 is because you actually _own_ a share in all the aircraft. Since you get it back, it shouldn't be much of a consideration.
 
dans2992 said:
Also, remember, no sales tax for Phoenix Flyers, and no need for renters insurance (as a part owner, you are covered by the clubs insurance).

The $4500 is because you actually _own_ a share in all the aircraft. Since you get it back, it shouldn't be much of a consideration.
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Word of warning. I just went to a club meeting this week where six pilots have three minor incidents and three major ones, and the club is likely to become "uninsurable" because of it. This was over the course of eight years.

Going to be able to get that $4500 back to pay for self-insurance or find anyone who wants to pay it when the club can't afford to self-insure for the hull value of the highest hull you fly?

Looking at the numbers, the three minor incidents probably aren't an ant fart to the insurer. So it only took three pilots screwing up to screw 120, in the case of this club.

Never thought about it before this week, but it's a significant risk in being in an equity club with lots of pilots because you can't manage the risk of them being poor pilots. I can't imagine they'll have any CFIs other than the die hards who'll run the risk of going completely uninsured. CFI insurance would be completely prohibitive if they have to go to member-based insurance.

They also have a "refundable buy in" setup but they don't refund until the next new member joins. And they're about to have a mass exodus I think.

I don't think it'll be a club ending event for them, but anyone with significant personal assets to protect and who does the math of carrying their own insurance is probably going to fly elsewhere for many years. They don't have a deep enough bank account to self-insure unless they sell an aircraft by my quick look of their numbers.
 
evapilotaz said:
Sorry AZ I didn't mean to Hijack your thread.
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Hey, no worries. Your's was reply number 32. I figure every thread devolves into some other topic after 20 or so posts anyway. ;)
 
Hobbes time is usually Tach time x 1.20. Thats a sizable difference. Makes those rates lower than they appear. Divide those hourly rates by 1.2 to get dollars per Hobbes hour. So the Archer is 99/1.2 or $82.5 an hour.
 
denverpilot said:
Word of warning. I just went to a club meeting this week where six pilots have three minor incidents and three major ones, and the club is likely to become "uninsurable" because of it. This was over the course of eight years.

Going to be able to get that $4500 back to pay for self-insurance or find anyone who wants to pay it when the club can't afford to self-insure for the hull value of the highest hull you fly?

Looking at the numbers, the three minor incidents probably aren't an ant fart to the insurer. So it only took three pilots screwing up to screw 120, in the case of this club.

Never thought about it before this week, but it's a significant risk in being in an equity club with lots of pilots because you can't manage the risk of them being poor pilots. I can't imagine they'll have any CFIs other than the die hards who'll run the risk of going completely uninsured. CFI insurance would be completely prohibitive if they have to go to member-based insurance.

They also have a "refundable buy in" setup but they don't refund until the next new member joins. And they're about to have a mass exodus I think.

I don't think it'll be a club ending event for them, but anyone with significant personal assets to protect and who does the math of carrying their own insurance is probably going to fly elsewhere for many years. They don't have a deep enough bank account to self-insure unless they sell an aircraft by my quick look of their numbers.
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Wow. I had not heard about all that!
 
Back to the OP: Your 450 mile flight is going to be at least 4 hours each way (total 8) if it's for 2 days you have no problems.
 
danhagan said:
Back to the OP: Your 450 mile flight is going to be at least 4 hours each way (total 8) if it's for 2 days you have no problems.
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Ya, I have been playing around with some basic flight planning ideas in skyvector. It will likely end up being a bit more than 450 nm. There are just a lot of mountains and canyons (one is quite grand ;)) that are going to get in the way. I am going to have to think about my route quite a bit.
 
azpilot said:
Ya, I have been playing around with some basic flight planning ideas in skyvector. It will likely end up being a bit more than 450 nm. There are just a lot of mountains and canyons (one is quite grand ;)) that are going to get in the way. I am going to have to think about my route quite a bit.
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Plan direct and "bend" your track to pass near San Carlos. You'll be over pavement/road going into Safford and avoid the higher peaks. If with PAX, early morning this time of year due to afternoon winds.
 
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