Overhaul, phase I

Good luck with your overhaul Tim. Get some foil tape for your oil cooler and make sure your oil temp gauge is reading accurately. The stuff from 3m is rated to +250F I too have seen 180F listed as the optimum temperature, at that temp any water in the oil should be burned off in a 1hr flight.
 
timwinters said:
Oh, now, Spike. You know how cheap I am and how much I like to cut corners!

That's why I went to a shop that also does NASCAR work (NASCAR). I mean, you know how cheap those NASCAR guys are and how sloppy their engine tolerances are.

A shop who has clients like Bill Elliott (ummm...that would be Car
#9, #9, #9, #9 (Then there's this Welsh Rarebit wearing some brown underpants))

A shop that will balance my engine to 1 gram or less (1 gram).

That's why I'm buying my new OEM cylinders from a guy who isn't impressed with the quality factory work or their tolerances. A guy who will buy 12 cylinders for me, weigh them, keep the 6 closest matched and send the other six back. Then he'll port and polish, install new valve guides and hone them, rework the valves and valve seats, flow balance (for what that's worth on an O-470 with it's sh*tty induction system) blueprint and Cryo all parts. He'll also do a few things to the cylinders that I'm not allowed to repeat here! :D

That's why I'm spending at least $5k more that I might otherwise need to...

Using Tom's logic (i.e. if I'm not familiar with the shop, then they can't possibly be good because I know everything) I'd say that going to Charlie would be doing things the cheap way. I'm sure Charlie doesn't use Seth for cylinders and if someone doesn't use Seth for cylinders then they can't possibly run a quality shop.

(tongue planted firmly in cheek while typing that last paragraph...no offense intended Charlie, I have nothing but respect for you)

(and all the parentheticals are added for Troys enjoyment ;) (and I can only assume that he particularly enjoys the use of a parenthetical inside of a parenthetical))
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Charley did a set of L-180 horse cylinders for me several years ago. they came back like new. and are still running every day on a mail route on Vancouver Island.
 
dell30rb said:
Good luck with your overhaul Tim. Get some foil tape for your oil cooler and make sure your oil temp gauge is reading accurately. The stuff from 3m is rated to +250F I too have seen 180F listed as the optimum temperature, at that temp any water in the oil should be burned off in a 1hr flight.
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my main problem is keeping the oil up to temp. I have my cooler completely covered with (FAA approved) gorilla tape 7 to 8 months out of the year. I have both the original gage and an engine monitor and try (try) to get it up over 180...preferably 190...for at least 10 minutes on every flight. It's quite difficult in the winter. Practicing slow flight is my forte as a result! Gotta love the 0 MPH indicated flight time:

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timwinters said:
But...

But...

But...

;)

I'd guarantee you that the minimum wage (or, these days, child slave labor) working in their factories don't give near the damn that Seth does.

When I only have one engine in front of me I'll rely on someone I know and trust, thanks, and that's Seth.

BTW, I don't think ECI Titans are made anymore because Continental bought them...it's my understanding that they shut them down.

But, a dozen years ago when I topped the O-300 in my '57 172 I used Titans and loved them. But, I bought them through Seth and he did the same thing...bought 12...sent 6 back. Reworked everything because the factory quality ain't up to his standards. He showed me how "off center" some of the valve guides were reamed. It was an interesting lesson.

And, another point, last month when this process was just starting, I asked Seth who was doing the best job on cylinders these days and he said that Continental is...and he followed that with "I wouldn't have said that a few years ago but today they definitely are." I trust Seth's judgement (obviously).
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Tim...

Sad to hear about the bad crank..:sad:..

Glad to hear you are drinking the racing concept of quality work and performance.....

As for the guys picking on what Tim did, or didn't take.. Just remember, the #9 car was the COORS beer car.... Maybe it is 5 oclock where Tim lives....:rolleyes:

Ps....As for the highlighted part....

A guide , or any other part gets a hole BORED in it....

All a reamer can do is follow that existing hole.. So , technically,,, the guides were "Bored" offcenter...:redface:
 
Tom-D said:
A bad crank is a bad crank, anywhere.

He'll pay anywhere he gets the engine rebuilt. I don't think the factory will even take it as core with a bad crank.
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They would have taken it as 'running when removed'. If you go with a factory engine, they send out a tech who looks at it on the plane to confirm that it is a running engine and that the case doesn't have gaping holes. If they do that, they will give the full core credit regardless of what they find inside.

but now that it has been torn down, I know they won't.
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No core credit for a bin of parts.

I don't know Charley's pricing well enough to know if he'd absorb the crank in his overhaul price or not.
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Then why do you keep harping on Tim for not using the shop of your choice ? I couldn't find an OH shop that wouldn't have charged for a bad crank or case.
 
N801BH said:
Ps....As for the highlighted part....

A guide , or any other part gets a hole BORED in it....

All a reamer can do is follow that existing hole.. So , technically,,, the guides were "Bored" offcenter...:redface:
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Yeah...I thought about it and thought about it when I was composing that post and couldn't come up with the proper term. It was a "what the hell, close enough" moment. ;)

And, FWIW, Seth hones all the valve guides. In other words, my pocketbook is the only thing being reamed! ;)

Stewartb said:
Ask him to track how the rockers contact the valves and make sure they're squared. Or figure you'll have some E valve work to do in a year or two.
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Seth said "oh yeah...oh yeah...if you don't do that then they'll 'kick off to the side' and you'll have a mess in short order."
 
weilke said:
Then why do you keep harping on Tim for not using the shop of your choice ? I couldn't find an OH shop that wouldn't have charged for a bad crank or case.
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Wasn't this thread about engine options and opinions?

that was mine, either you like it or not.
 
N801BH said:
A guide , or any other part gets a hole BORED in it....

All a reamer can do is follow that existing hole.. So , technically,,, the guides were "Bored" offcenter...:redface:
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Then you've never taught a bunch of freshman engineering students their first shop class ... they can do things with a reamer while my back is turned that would curl your toes. I can only detect it when that high pitched SCREEEEEEEE cuts the air.

Jim
 
Well, at least there was one bit of good news last week. The prop was in great shape; it was installed new at last o.h. so only 1350 snew.

Nothing but a reseal req'd.
 
Thanks for sharing this experience. Egos aside, you maintenance guys are seriously educating me on engine wear and solutions.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Tim, CamGuard can't protect against water. Ultimately if the water isn't boiling out, that's going to cause an issue. So I'm not sure I'd lose faith in it so much as I'd say that it's part of a system.

Maintaining proper oil temps is important in these engines. Too cold is not a good thing. Of course, I have no number on my temp gauge so I haven't a clue what numbers I'm running.

I'd bet the culprit on too cold oil overall. 230F is too hot as well, but Lycomings don't seem to care about that in my experience.
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This is the drawback to the 230hp rating on a 470cuin engine, it never really 'works'.
 
weilke said:
Some people have rigged up a system that blows dried air through the oil-filler port to vent the residual moisture out the breather tube. I have not seen any systematic study that looked at something like a twin with two identical engines and followed moisture and corrosion over a meaningful length of time to convince me that it makes a difference. It should work, but that's what we thought about hormone replacement therapy too ;) .

The problem is how to get to the moisture contained in the goo the covers the inside of the engine. The goo is an emulsion, just like Nivea hand creme (an emulsion of petrolatum jelly, air, glycerine and water). The water is finely dispersed in the oily matrix and no matter how dry you make the air inside of the engine, that water will evaporate only in a very delayed manner (kind of like a jar of Nivea eventually dries out).
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Add the occasional batch of chlorinated solvent to the oil and ground run it for a few minutes before changing the oil. That should do pretty good at controlling sludge build up.
 
timwinters said:
my main problem is keeping the oil up to temp. I have my cooler completely covered with (FAA approved) gorilla tape 7 to 8 months out of the year. I have both the original gage and an engine monitor and try (try) to get it up over 180...preferably 190...for at least 10 minutes on every flight. It's quite difficult in the winter. Practicing slow flight is my forte as a result! Gotta love the 0 MPH indicated flight time:

attachment.php
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Things would be easier if they let you turn 2600.
 
Henning said:
This is the drawback to the 230hp rating on a 470cuin engine, it never really 'works'.
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That's not really an issue. Keep in mind many 182 engines go well past TBO.

Seems Tim got water in the oil that never boiled out.
 
Tim, my 180's cooler stays partially to fully covered all year and oil temps run about 170*. I have no indications of corrosion but I do use Camguard in Phillips X/C oil and I change it at 25 hours. Time at temp is as important as temp itself. I fly lots of short flights so to compensate I run it at 24/2400 or higher most of the time.
 
Henning said:
Add the occasional batch of chlorinated solvent to the oil and ground run it for a few minutes before changing the oil. That should do pretty good at controlling sludge build up.
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I don't know enough to say whether thinning out the oil in that way will harm the engine, but I do know to stay upwind of the exhaust when one runs an engine that way. Any of the chlorinated solvent that tries to burn will react with some of the fuel to make some "nice" chlorinated compounds that definitely aren't healthy. It is nastier than jet engine exhaust diluted by the fan.
 
Henning said:
Add the occasional batch of chlorinated solvent to the oil and ground run it for a few minutes before changing the oil. That should do pretty good at controlling sludge build up.
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That may not be the worst advice I've ever read but it gets honorable mention. Fly it hard, land, drain oil hot.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's not really an issue. Keep in mind many 182 engines go well past TBO.

Seems Tim got water in the oil that never boiled out.
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That's what I mean, the engine doesn't work hard enough to keep the oil hot enough, then on top of that, people baby the engines in 182s and crank them back even further. At 230hp max, we're already under .5hp/cuin. The way a 470 is built, you can go full power continuous duty and the engine will be fat dumb and happy and run beyond TBO. There's no engine related reasoning that suggests ever reducing power. Now let's pull back to 70% power, that's .34 hp/cuin in an engine that has no problem shedding heat from .55hp/cuin. Now add in operating in Alaska and enjoying slow flight... You really aren't doing the engine any favors reducing power from 230 if you are having trouble making temp.

The best way I see to operate that plane in Alaska is like a dragster, full out the whole way. If you don't want to spend the fuel money to do that, I would suggest that the last 15-20 minutes of a flight is. Then there is leaning out, the moisture mostly comes from the fuel.
 
Well, plenty of 182s obviously have no problem.

Tim, was your vernatherm found to be functioning properly?
 
Water is a byproduct of combustion, so it will always be present in the oil. Also, you do not have to reach 212 degrees for water to evaporate out of the oil.
 
PaulS said:
Water is a byproduct of combustion, so it will always be present in the oil. Also, you do not have to reach 212 degrees for water to evaporate out of the oil.
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no worries....experts will be by soon to dispute the physics.....:yikes::goofy::D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, plenty of 182s obviously have no problem.

Tim, was your vernatherm found to be functioning properly?
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Yes, thought it might be the issue, replaced it early in the summer. Old one worked just fine when dropped in boiling water.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
no worries....experts will be by soon to dispute the physics.....:yikes::goofy::D
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I would have agreed with you simply on the basis that the vapor pressure of water exceeds that of the atmosphere at 100° C at one atmosphere. However, the references below indicate that water emulsified in oil can boil at more than 100° C.

I'm even considering boiling point elevation when one adds something to the water (such as salt, antifreeze, or more relevant to the conversation, and oil additives or acids from combustion dissolved in the water)

http://www.che.ufl.edu/shah/misc/Publications/1990/Adiga 1.pdf

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...paNr_hnxTNTPVUSVUC09BQ&bvm=bv.106379543,d.eWE
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I would have agreed with you simply on the basis that the vapor pressure of water exceeds that of the atmosphere at 100° C at one atmosphere. However, the references below indicate that water emulsified in oil can boil at more than 100° C.

I'm even considering boiling point elevation when one adds something to the water (such as salt, antifreeze, or more relevant to the conversation, and oil additives or acids from combustion dissolved in the water)

http://www.che.ufl.edu/shah/misc/Publications/1990/Adiga 1.pdf

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...paNr_hnxTNTPVUSVUC09BQ&bvm=bv.106379543,d.eWE
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And you should add in the reductions in boiling point as altitude increases (and therefore atmospheric pressure decreases).

John
 
jsstevens said:
And you should add in the reductions in boiling point as altitude increases (and therefore atmospheric pressure decreases).

John
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Very true, and this merely adds more complexity to the question "What temperature is high enough to remove water from oil?"

I was merely trying to point out that it is not a simple as simply telling someone to "heat it above the bp of water".
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Very true, and this merely adds more complexity to the question "What temperature is high enough to remove water from oil?"

I was merely trying to point out that it is not a simple as simply telling someone to "heat it above the bp of water".
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Even if you get the oil hot enough, you are constantly adding water via the combustion process, so I'm not sure it really matters to get all the water out. I think it is more important to run the motor regularly to operating temperature to drive the condensate out of the motor and keep the internals coated in oil. To me frequency at operating temperature for a minimum time, say 30 minutes is more important than trying to obtain an oil temperature of 220 versus 170. Just my opinion though.
 
PaulS said:
To me frequency at operating temperature for a minimum time, say 30 minutes is more important than trying to obtain an oil temperature of 220 versus 170.
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Don't different engines measure the temp at different places? That would make a big difference.

I know (or at least I've read) that Lycoming and Continental's oil pressure sensors/systems are completely different thus Lyco's oil pressures really aren't higher. The readings are just taken in a different place.

Ted?
 
PaulS said:
Even if you get the oil hot enough, you are constantly adding water via the combustion process, so I'm not sure it really matters to get all the water out. I think it is more important to run the motor regularly to operating temperature to drive the condensate out of the motor and keep the internals coated in oil. To me frequency at operating temperature for a minimum time, say 30 minutes is more important than trying to obtain an oil temperature of 220 versus 170. Just my opinion though.
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If the oil isn't "hot enough" for "long enough", would that lead to condensation within the crank case? I think the key is the "operating temperature" for a "minimum time" that you mentioned. I agree with you, not all the water is going to come out though.

I suspect we are in agreement, but looking at it from different points of view.
 
timwinters said:
Don't different engines measure the temp at different places? That would make a big difference.

I know (or at least I've read) that Lycoming and Continental's oil pressure sensors/systems are completely different thus Lyco's oil pressures really aren't higher. The readings are just taken in a different place.

Ted?
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The oil temps are definitely different in different parts, as are the pressures. I hadn't heard that Lyco/Continental's oil pressure differences were due to the different locations of the probes, but that would make sense. What matters with oil pressure is more understanding what your engine's oil pressure normally is, and seeing if there's a change.
 
I was over at Gann Aviation the other day working on a Malibu. I had to check out your O470 while I was there. They say you need another crank. Sounds like good timing on taking the engine down. Gann did the engine on this Malibu I was checking out last year and it still looks good.

They have a small but good looking overhaul shop built up.
 
kmead said:
They have a small but good looking overhaul shop built up.
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Yeah, gotta love a shop that you can eat off of the floors.

kmead said:
I had to check out your O470 while I was there. They say you need another crank.
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YGBSM!!!

Really??

Damn, this is gettin' expensive.

;)

Did you buy Bill Elliott's turbine Lancair while you were there?
 
timwinters said:
Did you buy Bill Elliott's turbine Lancair while you were there?
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I heard ther was there but didn't get to see it. I don't think I need an airplane like that. It would just kill me.

I'm laying low for a good fixer upper Malibu now. I don't think I can ever get another one for the price of my old Malibu and it wasn't a fixer.
 
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