Overflying the field

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cyclepro

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Cyclepro
Hi,
I was talking to my instructor today about over flying the field to enter the pattern and had a question he was unsure of. My home field (kpwk) has Two pattern altitudes. One for piston planes and one for jets. So when over flying the field which pattern altitude do you over fly?
 
..I guess it depends on if I'm flying a jet or a piston. :dunno:

Since I don't own a jet, it'd be the piston altitude.

Your CFI was confused about this?
 
Well, you should overfly the field at 500' above pattern altitude but in this case the jet pattern is 500' above the prop pattern so maybe 500' above the jet pattern?

Ron will be along shortly.

Personally, I won't overfly a field.
 
Personally, I like to be at the pattern altitude for landing a good ~3 miles from the airport. It's very hard to spot traffic descending into the pattern near the field.
 
JHW said:
Personally, I like to be at the pattern altitude for landing a good ~3 miles from the airport. It's very hard to spot traffic descending into the pattern near the field.
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That's one of the reasons I don't overfly.

I'll pick up the ASOS from the airport, or one nearby (or just look at trees, ponds, flags, etc.) decide what runway I think I'll use. Make a standard 45 entry on the downwind. Look at the windsock while on downwind. If it tells me to land in the opposite direction, then I announce that I'm on upwind and fly a lap around the airport.
 
timwinters said:
That's one of the reasons I don't overfly.

I'll pick up the ASOS from the airport, or one nearby (or just look at trees, ponds, flags, etc.) decide what runway I think I'll use. Make a standard 45 entry on the downwind. Look at the windsock while on downwind. If it tells me to land in the opposite direction, then I announce that I'm on upwind and fly a lap around the airport.
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Good idea, because the AWOS lied to me the other day and I did NOT look at the sock and got my ass handed to me. :yikes:
 
timwinters said:
Well, you should overfly the field at 500' above pattern altitude but in this case the jet pattern is 500' above the prop pattern so maybe 500' above the jet pattern?

Ron will be along shortly.

Personally, I won't overfly a field.
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That's what we were confused about. If you over fly at 500' above jet pattern you have to descend through possible jet traffic, on the other hand if you over fly the prop pattern you're in the jet pattern.
 
1,000 ft above the piston altitude. That'll put you 500 ft ish above the turbine altitude. Not that you'd see a jet in the pattern anyway because most likely they'll be doing a straight in.
 
JHW said:
Personally, I like to be at the pattern altitude for landing a good ~3 miles from the airport. It's very hard to spot traffic descending into the pattern near the field.
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I agree: overfly at the pattern altitude. Nobody is going to be doing a high enough pass to cross, and if they do, you can see them and they can see you.

Overflying at +1000 and then trying to lose THOUSAND FEET while on downwind (!!) is a great recipy for disaster. Just look at all those mid-airs that happen when one aircraft rapidly descends (usually a helicopter, sometimes a student and CFI practicing).

Tim's approach works too, and I used that at an unfamiliar field. Just orbit the field. Are you that critical on gas that you can't orbit? I used to do it when I was a student, and I still do it in places where, for instance, parachute jumpers descend to land through the traffic pattern.
 
Deleted - I just looked at KPWK's location within a notch in O'Hare's 19/100 bravo shelf, and below O'Hare's 30/100 shelf, and realized that everything I initially said about orbiting doesn't apply to this situation. Sorry for the false start.

However, now that I looked more closely at KWPK, maybe my experience at John Wayne (KSNA) is relevant since it also has a TPA for little slow planes at 1000 AGL and for big fast planes at 1500 AGL:

KWPK's TPAs
piston acft 1647 (1000)
jets 2147 (1500)

KSNA's TPAs
small acft 1056 (1000)
turbine acft 1556 (1500)

At KSNA, when tower has me crossing midfield from the west to turn onto the downwind to the east, the controller always says to cross over "at or above 1300 feet" which, I note, is nominally in between the two TPAs.
 
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I virtually always overfly at 500' above the published piston traffic altitude.

For reasons already given repeatedly in other threads.

I'm aware that there may be jets at that altitude, but I have never encountered one doing an overhead, so I think that risk is manageable.

I have my Garmin's Vertical Descent Profile set to get me down to 1,500' AGL 3 miles out.

Has held me in good stead for many years and hours of flying. Conflicts with other traffic have been very few and far between over the years. Almost nonexistent, really.

It pleases me, but I recognize others may prefer other methods.
 
timwinters said:
That's one of the reasons I don't overfly.

I'll pick up the ASOS from the airport, or one nearby (or just look at trees, ponds, flags, etc.) decide what runway I think I'll use. Make a standard 45 entry on the downwind. Look at the windsock while on downwind. If it tells me to land in the opposite direction, then I announce that I'm on upwind and fly a lap around the airport.
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I always overfly. Back in kansas to check for cows on the runway. Here in tasmania it's sheep on the runway. They're smaller but still big enough to ruin your day.
 
Are you asking at what altitude you would overfly your own home field, or somewhere else?
If you're based at Palwaukee you should already know how much turbine traffic there is day to day. Why would want to over fly and then descend through all that? Are you coming in after tower hours? Wouldn't the tower pretty much tell you at what altitude to fly at for traffic.
I don't have a class B map in front of me here but wouldn't 1000' above the traffic pattern put you very close to the lower limits of the class B shelf?

At other smaller outlying airports you can't depend on all turbine traffic on a straight in approach either. Many times I've come in from a direction and had to do either an upwind, downwind or base entry before landing.
 
Here in Auburn, AL, I've followed jets around the pattern--midfield crosswind, downwind, base and final, and his wings were only level while approaching the field and again on short final. Needless to say, my legs were longer, straighter, wings level and much slower than his were.

Keep your eyes open!
 
cyclepro said:
Hi,
I was talking to my instructor today about over flying the field to enter the pattern and had a question he was unsure of. My home field (kpwk) has Two pattern altitudes. One for piston planes and one for jets. So when over flying the field which pattern altitude do you over fly?
Click to expand...

The highest one.

If turbines fly a 1500 foot TPA and light aircraft fly a 1000 foot TPA, crossing 500 feet over the lower TPA is a Bad Place.

Turbines sometimes fly patterns, or occasionally even closed traffic. I've seen C-130s flying touch'n'goes all day at Palmdale.
 
For me it depends. If it's a place where I might expect to see turbines, I'll overfly the turbine TPA by 500 feet. Otherwise the piston TPA at 500 feet. The likelyhood of encountering a rogue, NORDO turbine in the pattern is fairly remote.

That said, I prefer not to overfly the field, but I'm not going to take a several NM radius loop detour to avoid doing so. I think it's safer doing a perpendicular overflight and doing a teardrop entry to the pattern than it is to shave the pattern trying to get around it.
 
IMO the whole "overfly the airport above pattern altitude then return on 45° entry to the downwind leg" concept rarely makes sense and I wish the FAA would realize this with an update to the AIM.

It is vastly easier to spot other traffic in the pattern if you're at the same altitude and there are many safe options for entering the pattern from different directions that don't involve descending in an area likely to have other traffic (i.e. the 45 entry area). And unless you're flying straight in, just by flying a portion of the pattern you get plenty of opportunity to view the windsock to confirm the best runway and recognize airplanes on the ground that might be of concern. You should be checking the windsock on final anyway since there's no guarantee the wind hasn't shifted while you were finding your way back to the airport after overflying.

Finally, if your VFR arrival procedures require an overflight at 2000 AGL, what are you going to do when there are clouds at or below 2500 AGL?
 
I'm not asking just for kpwk. That's included as there is a pretty decent amount of jet traffic. I go to small untowered fields that also have jet traffic so I was curious as was my instructor
 
txflyer said:
Your CFI was confused about this?
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:yeahthat:

Seriously, perhaps you should consider a new CFI. I can't imagine a situation in which a CFI wouldn't be able to adequately answer this question, forcing you to turn to this forum.
 
Any jet traffic is going to be flying a much wider pattern than you're ever likely to fly so the altitude is a nonissue.
 
Sac Arrow said:
For me it depends. If it's a place where I might expect to see turbines, I'll overfly the turbine TPA by 500 feet. Otherwise the piston TPA at 500 feet. The likelyhood of encountering a rogue, NORDO turbine in the pattern is fairly remote.

That said, I prefer not to overfly the field, but I'm not going to take a several NM radius loop detour to avoid doing so. I think it's safer doing a perpendicular overflight and doing a teardrop entry to the pattern than it is to shave the pattern trying to get around it.
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Hi Sac Arrow - I was taught that I have the option of doing a perpendicular overflight and then to a teardrop entry to the pattern - assuming that's the same as what Gismo calls "overfly the airport above pattern altitude [and] then return on 45° entry to the downwind leg".

But, I don't understand what you mean re trying to "shave the pattern trying to get around it." Can you elaborate a bit?
 
LDJones said:
Any jet traffic is going to be flying a much wider pattern than you're ever likely to fly so the altitude is a nonissue.
Click to expand...

They are talking about crossing the pattern, not flying it. There is no way you can get inside a wide pattern at pattern altitude from elsewhere, without crossing it.
 
cyclepro said:
My home field (kpwk) has Two pattern altitudes. One for piston planes and one for jets. So when over flying the field which pattern altitude do you over fly?
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500 above the highest published TPA if published, or 1500 AGL if not published. No good comes of someone flying across an airport at TPA -- any TPA.
 
cyclepro said:
That's what we were confused about. If you over fly at 500' above jet pattern you have to descend through possible jet traffic,
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Not if you cross over and get 2-3 miles the other side before reversing and descending to fly at your TPA under the jet TPA on the 45-downwind back into the pattern.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Deleted - I just looked at KPWK's location
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If you're at PWK, you're talking to PWK Tower, and you do what tower tells you to do. I don't see them having you cross over at TPA and enter the pattern from the opposite side unless they've made space for you to do that.

As for being at TPA 3 miles out, that's fine, but if you're arriving from the side opposite the pattern, just enter on the crosswind and there's nothing to worry about -- you will be able to see and safely avoid anyone else out there. Where trouble occurs is when someone tries to enter the downwind from the opposite side at TPA, and comes to a meeting with someone else already on the downwind from crosswind and someone else entering on the 45 -- now you have three planes all trying to occupy the same space at the same time, and someone has nowhere good to go to avoid it.
 
The safe method in an uncontrolled airport is to overfly at PA+500 midfield then teardrop turn/descend on a 45 into the pattern and downwind. Sadly people often fly straight in, or enter the downwind from a midfield flyover at PA.

If in controlled airspace, ATC will not have anyone do this.
 
JHW said:
I always overfly. Back in kansas to check for cows on the runway. Here in tasmania it's sheep on the runway. They're smaller but still big enough to ruin your day.
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Good reason to enter the pattern safely, make a low approach, and then if it's clear fly a closed pattern back o land. The low approach may also help move the sheep.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Hi Sac Arrow - I was taught that I have the option of doing a perpendicular overflight and then to a teardrop entry to the pattern - assuming that's the same as what Gismo calls "overfly the airport above pattern altitude [and] then return on 45° entry to the downwind leg".
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You do have that option -- just don't do it at TPA. Cross the airport safely above TPA (I recommend 500 above), get clear to the other side, and then do your descending turn back t join the 45 at TPA.
 
Ron Levy said:
And I'll be you fly over airports all the time -- at like 3500 or something like that. ;)
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Well, yeah I'll give you that one! :)

And, more importantly, on a cross country, I will deviate to purposely overfly the airfield...if my course is greater than 45* from runway heading.

The safest way to pass an airfield...when flying somewhat perpendicular to its runway..is right over the center.

This if I'm below about 4,000' AGL...above that I don't worry about it much.
 
timwinters said:
That's one of the reasons I don't overfly.

I'll pick up the ASOS from the airport, or one nearby (or just look at trees, ponds, flags, etc.) decide what runway I think I'll use. Make a standard 45 entry on the downwind. Look at the windsock while on downwind. If it tells me to land in the opposite direction, then I announce that I'm on upwind and fly a lap around the airport.
Click to expand...


:yes::yes:......:thumbsup:....... Me too...
 
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