Over the top for left downwind

[signu127]

For a wide variety of reasons, the one place you don't want to be is inside the traffic pattern at TPA. Whatever leg of the pattern you join, join it from the outside, not the inside. Trying to join the downwind from the inside means you'll be belly up to both traffic already on the downwind from closed traffic and traffic joining from the 45. If you find a conflict in this situation, you have nowhere else to go. If you want to overfly the field to look at the wind sock or something, please do that at least 500 above the highest TPA, then continue across until clear of the pattern (2-3 miles out) before descending turning back to join the 45 leg at TPA. If you don't want to do that, join the crosswind leg at the normal point about 3/4-1 mile beyond the departure end of the runway at TPA. This will give you a good view of anyone on the upwind or climbing out so you can maneuver to avoid them during your entry, and there will be nobody to whom you will be belly-up.

Question about this...when doing a fly over to look at the windsock how do you usually announce that on that radio?

thanks

 

[Dwayne]

One is still turning the "wrong" way upon entering the downwind off the 45.

 

[Silvaire]

This.

If one is entering the pattern from a midfield crosswind at an airport where there are 3 other aircraft on downwind and not enough spacing for you to squeak in, what's the out? .....

For cripe sakes man - MANEUVER so as not to hit anybody. That's what the controls are for. People here seem to be talking as if they are on a ballistic trajectory with no way to alter the course - can't turn right 'cause I'm only supposed to turn left. We're talking about a simple mid-field crosswind entry and they are throwing in nonsense like familiarizing yourself with the field, studying the windsock, learning how to configure your aircraft for landing, as if it's all just too much to handle.

Come on, this isn't that big of a deal

 

[Dwayne]

When approaching a left pattern on the 45, in order to roll wings level to a heading that is parallel with the runway, one must make a 45 degree turn to the right with the latter portion of that turn being completed while entering the pattern. Nit picking for sure, but true nevertheless.

 

[Jim Logajan]

When approaching a left pattern on the 45, in order to roll wings level to a heading that is parallel with the runway, one must make a 45 degree turn to the right with the latter portion of that turn being completed while entering the pattern. Nit picking for sure, but true nevertheless.

While I agree, I think at this point repeating that argument is the equivalent of pushing on a string. The point is made or it is not. At core the issue is what is required to be safe that also meets regulatory requirements. If it is argued that there exists a definition of approach that makes the 45 entry meet regulatory demands, then once that exceptional item is noted (and conceded,) one needs to move on to whether that exception enhances or degrades safety.

 

[eetrojan]

This is from an AOPA publication re "Operations at Nontowered Airports." It's from 2003.

Is this what y'all are discussing?

SA08_Nontowered_Airport_Ops.pdf

 

[Turningfinal]

For cripe sakes man - MANEUVER so as not to hit anybody. That's what the controls are for. People here seem to be talking as if they are on a ballistic trajectory with no way to alter the course - can't turn right 'cause I'm only supposed to turn left. We're talking about a simple mid-field crosswind entry and they are throwing in nonsense like familiarizing yourself with the field, studying the windsock, learning how to configure your aircraft for landing, as if it's all just too much to handle.

Come on, this isn't that big of a deal

Ok, so you turn left....now you're flying a downwind inside of 3 other airplanes. Turn right, and you're flying head on to other aircraft in the downwind. Fly straight ahead to exit the pattern and now you're a doofus as that plane to your right on downwind heading toward you has the right of way.

Of course, now you've done all this unnecessary maneuvering (why not enter on the upwind or crosswind?) and you're certainly the one everyone in the pattern agrees is the idiot.

 

[JHW]

Of course, now you've done all this unnecessary maneuvering (why not enter on the upwind or crosswind?) and you're certainly the one everyone in the pattern agrees is the idiot.

he did enter on the crosswind. Glad you finally came around.

 

[Swampfox201]

This is from an AOPA publication re "Operations at Nontowered Airports." It's from 2003.

Is this what y'all are discussing?

SA08_Nontowered_Airport_Ops.pdf

See both ways are right. Problem solved. No more posts necessary.

 

[Turningfinal]

he did enter on the crosswind. Glad you finally came around.

Ah another nitpicker. You know what I meant by the crosswind leg.

 

[Jim Logajan]

This is from an AOPA publication re "Operations at Nontowered Airports." It's from 2003.

Is this what y'all are discussing?

That is my understanding; either Figure 9 or Figure 10, though the latter may be the more divisive one. I've used the approach in Figure 9; have yet to use the one in Figure 10. Because those on a 45 or downwind entry are less likely to be looking for traffic over midfield it makes sense that the AOPA would advise midfield traffic to yield to those aviators.

 

[F01LA]

Let's return to the original questions:

My questions are why did many of you have a problem with this traffic pattern entry method? Is this not standard? What's up with somebody saying its Canadian?

Even that publication notes that it's not "standard", or preferred. I don't see anything prohibiting it, but some of us are questioning whether it's a good idea or the best entry method from that direction.

 

[JHW]

Ah another nitpicker. You know what I meant by the crosswind leg.

not at all. A super cub taking off may turn crosswind before mid-field, a commander 112 may be 2 miles upwind still trying to climb above the trees. Crosswind can be anywhere.

 

[JHW]

Even that publication notes that it's not "standard", or preferred. I don't see anything prohibiting it, but some of us are questioning whether it's a good idea or the best entry method from that direction.

exactly. It's in the same category as deciding when to drop gear on a non-precision approach. There is no right or wrong as long as you 1. put the wheels down at some point on the approach, or 2. scan for traffic and take steps to avoid it joining the downwind.

 

[Turningfinal]

not at all. A super cub taking off may turn crosswind before mid-field, a commander 112 may be 2 miles upwind still trying to climb above the trees. Crosswind can be anywhere.

You must be unfamiliar with the AIM stating to commence crosswind turns beyond the departure end of the runway.

 

[dtuuri]

not at all. A super cub taking off may turn crosswind before mid-field, a commander 112 may be 2 miles upwind still trying to climb above the trees. Crosswind can be anywhere.

In Pretoria, maybe, not Peoria.

dtuuri

 

[JHW]

You must be unfamiliar with the AIM stating to commence crosswind turns beyond the departure end of the runway.

I'm more concerned about looking for traffic where it exists in the real world. Which is anywhere and everywhere.

 

[charris911]

Just landed a few ago, I tried out the Fig 10 entry (midfield), I was on opposite side of uncontrolled field. Announced 10 mi out, "will cross midfield then left downwind entry", when I was over the the top at TPA, announced "over the field, entering left downwind runway 35".

I didn't see any issue, but there was only one other guy in the pattern, if the radio was hopping and the pattern full...seems the Fig 9 entry (45 degree) would be easier to sequence yourself into a busy pattern. There is no perfect way.

 

[Turningfinal]

I'm more concerned about looking for traffic where it exists in the real world. Which is anywhere and everywhere.

Which is, of course, exacerbated by pilots blatantly disregarding recommended procedures by doing whatever they want.

 

[JHW]

Just landed a few ago, I tried out the Fig 10 entry (midfield), I was on opposite side of uncontrolled field. Announced 10 mi out, "will cross midfield then left downwind entry", when I was over the the top at TPA, announced "over the field, entering left downwind runway 35".

I didn't see any issue, but there was only one other guy in the pattern, if the radio was hopping and the pattern full...seems the Fig 9 entry (45 degree) would be easier to sequence yourself into a busy pattern. There is no perfect way.

amen. I'm still chuckling with the comment about "3 planes on downwind". Other than OSH the last time I can recall seeing 3 GA planes in the air at once is...never.

Obviously if there is lots of traffic you may decide to do many things differently than when there is not.

 

[JHW]

Which is, of course, exacerbated by pilots blatantly disregarding recommended procedures in lieu of doing whatever they want.

"aircraft using the alternate entry should yield to aircraft using the standard entry and aircraft on downwind". It seems straightforward enough to me.

 

[Turningfinal]

amen. I'm still chuckling with the comment about "3 planes on downwind". Other than OSH the last time I can recall seeing 3 GA planes in the air at once is...never.

Obviously if there is lots of traffic you may decide to do many things differently than when there is not.

I trained in Florida and currently fly in the Chicago burbs. It's fairly common on the weekends to have multiple people in the pattern at the airports I regularly fly (1C5, LOT, DKB, etc.) With our chapter's Young Eagle rallies we commonly have 7-10 aircraft flying.

I've been to Peoria multiple times. Your comment about no GA traffic doesn't surprise me

 

[Silvaire]

Ok, so you turn left....now you're flying a downwind inside of 3 other airplanes. Turn right, and you're flying head on to other aircraft in the downwind. Fly straight ahead to exit the pattern and now you're a doofus as that plane to your right on downwind heading toward you has the right of way.

Of course, now you've done all this unnecessary maneuvering (why not enter on the upwind or crosswind?) and you're certainly the one everyone in the pattern agrees is the idiot.

Let me ask you this: when you are entering a pattern, by any means, are you completely unaware of what is going on prior to joining the downwind leg? Are you unable to adjust and compensate to avoid conflict?

If you are convinced that conducting a simple mid-field crosswind pattern entry has a high probability of making you look like an idiot then by all means don't do it. Personally, in 40 years of flying, I've never had that problem.

 

[nddons]

This question deals with the thread titled "Call the tower".

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63350

I agree with 99% of the topics discussed here but in the thread above I found myself scratching my head.

Lets say I am landing at an uncontrolled airport and am flying east to west and will be landing on runway 36. The uncontrolled airport has left patterns. I was taught to overfly the airport at TPA at midfield and to make a radio call saying "Cessna 1234 5 miles to the east over the top for midfield left downwind runway 36"

The reason is two fold. Directly over the runway at TPA I will not have a conflict with landing and departing traffic and as I approach left downwind at TPA I can scan the downwind leg for traffic moving from my right to left. This is how I was trained and its how I trained my students when I was instructing.

I understand the post above deals with a controlled airport and that discussion has been hashed to death. My questions are why did many of you have a problem with this traffic pattern entry method? Is this not standard? What's up with somebody saying its Canadian?

We are here to learn. Somebody enlighten me please.

Thanks!

I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have already been said, but the difference is at a class delta airport, tower can and often does utilize both right and left hand patterns, depending existing traffic, inbound arrivals, and departing aircraft.

In the OP's case, he was told to report on left downwind, but was actually somewhere on the right downwind (because it was easier to get there even though he received his instructions from tower 15 miles out) before crossing over at midfield to turn on and report as left downwind.

The OP, who was a student at the time, claimed to have been listening for other traffic, and felt his move was safe. However, tower could have had inbound IFR traffic on approach control's freq., could have had inbound fast moving turbine traffic he was not aware of, an instrument flight doing a missed approach that may have been at TPA by the time he was midfield, and a host of other potential conflicts that he didn't consider.

In your case, at an uncontrolled field, there should NEVER be traffic on the opposite downwind (unless winds were calm, etc) so you are much safer crossing over at midfield. Personally, I like crossing over the field at 500' over TPA and doing the teardrop into the 45, but that's me.

 

[JHW]

I trained in Florida and currently fly in the Chicago burbs. It's fairly common on the weekends to have multiple people in the pattern at the airports I regularly fly (1C5, LOT, DKB, etc.) With our chapter's Young Eagle rallies we commonly have 7-10 aircraft flying.

I've been to Peoria multiple times. Your comment about no GA traffic doesn't surprise me

I might have to retract my statement, we do actually have a lot of traffic. In the first photo, right behind the hangars you might see several ducks and geese in the air at once in the corner of the photo. If not in the air they are at least on a taxiway hot-spot.

As for Florida, 2nd photo is a shot of what I typically see of Florida. Truly a paradise by anyone's definition.

 

[Turningfinal]

Let me ask you this: when you are entering a pattern, by any means, are you completely unaware of what is going on prior to joining the downwind leg? Are you unable to adjust and compensate to avoid conflict?

If you are convinced that conducting a simple mid-field crosswind pattern entry has a high probability of making you look like an idiot then by all means don't do it. Personally, in 40 years of flying, I've never had that problem.

I try to be aware as I can be, and hope that others are doing the same. But I also realize there are other individuals in the pattern who may be NORDO or just not paying attention, so it's impossible to have a 100% grasp of what's going on.

Call me crazy, but I like to have as many "outs" as possible from any given situation. Part of that is putting myself in a generally recognized and established portion of the pattern (or pattern entry) that will allow other pilots (if they're paying attention) to see and avoid me at the same time. Other than saving 30 seconds of time (if that), what does that non-standard entry buy you, other than putting yourself in a position that some pilots may not be expecting you to be?

 

[JHW]

Other than saving 30 seconds of time (if that), what does that non-standard entry buy you, other than putting yourself in a position that some pilots may not be expecting you to be?

It buys me reduced chances of a collision and an easier time keeping track of other traffic due to less maneuvering in the vicinity of an airplane magnet. BTW I'm not truly "NORDO" as I do have a CB radio in the pawnee albeit only 19 channel.

 

[Alexb2000]

I don't know where you guys fly, but every non-towered field I go to has people doing everything. Turbines always come straight in, even with people in the pattern. They will also land opposing runway from traffic in the pattern. People also fly both right and left sides simultaneously. They join and depart from any part of the pattern. Fly short approaches and 747 patterns, etc. The best thing is communication, go with the flow, and keep your eyes open. Otherwise some of you guys could spend the day "counseling" nearly every pilot flying. Mid-fields should be the least of your concerns.

 

[Turningfinal]

It buys me reduced chances of a collision and an easier time keeping track of other traffic due to less maneuvering in the vicinity of an airplane magnet. BTW I'm not truly "NORDO" as I do have a CB radio in the pawnee albeit only 19 channel.

Could one not argue that your risk of collision is increased if other pilots do not know where to look for you? Right or wrong, I don't know very many people who are expecting aircraft to join the pattern from a midfield crosswind. Besides, entering the crosswind beyond the departure end of the runway requires no more maneuvering than the method your prescribe.

 

[Silvaire]

...Other than saving 30 seconds of time (if that), what does that non-standard entry buy you, other than putting yourself in a position that some pilots may not be expecting you to be?

If you can fly three miles past the airport and conduct your completely non-standard descending, turning maneuvers and come back on the 45 in 30 seconds then please let us all know so we can get the heck out of your way!

Look, I can understand if you are not comfortable with performing this entry but it IS a standard entry that is done all the time so just get used to it.

 

[Turningfinal]

I don't know where you guys fly, but every non-towered field I go to has people doing everything. Turbines always come straight in, even with people in the pattern. They will also land opposing runway from traffic in the pattern. People also fly both right and left sides simultaneously. They join and depart from any part of the pattern. Fly short approaches and 747 patterns, etc. The best thing is communication, go with the flow, and keep your eyes open. Otherwise some of you guys could spend the day "counseling" nearly every pilot flying. Mid-fields should be the least of your concerns.

That's the reality, unfortunately. Pilots tend to be pretty stubborn when it comes to doing what they want to do, even if it goes against common sense. You'd think that with the highest risk of collision being near the airport and in the traffic pattern, people would warm up to the idea of flying a standardized procedure.

 

[JHW]

Could one not argue that your risk of collision is increased if other pilots do not know where to look for you? Right or wrong, I don't know very many people who are expecting aircraft to join the pattern from a midfield crosswind. Besides, entering the crosswind beyond the departure end of the runway requires no more maneuvering than the method your prescribe.

on the contrary, everyone I know is expecting it as it's a common and expected way to enter the pattern.

 

[Neal Howard]

Most places you see a turbine on down wind are towered anyways.

The turbine traffic at my (small uncontrolled) airport almost always enters the pattern at 500' below TPA with straight-in finals. (and no, they're not helicopters)

For everyone else, the accepted local procedure is to cross over at TPA midfield for the left downwind.

 

[JHW]

The turbine traffic at my (small uncontrolled) airport almost always enters the pattern at 500' below TPA with straight-in finals.

For everyone else, the accepted local procedure is to cross over at TPA midfield for the left downwind.

same here. that is also their cruise altitude

 

[Henning]

No, not a 270 deg turn. A teardrop into the 45. And take a couple of miles out from the field if you need it. At your typical 80-90 knots in the pattern, that's well under 500 FPM. If a 500 FPM descent isn't your idea of a smart move, how do you handle VASIs?

I have no qualms with dropping 1000' in a tight 180, but I typically ignore the VASI anyway.

 

[Neal Howard]

same here. that is also their cruise altitude

They're probably mostly painted yellow with blue stripes too.

 

[Henning]

No, but <3,000 AGL with airliners rate of climb pretty much the same. My point was that they don't want you anywhere near the ends of the runways. Since this is a visual maneuver per their request; I'm not sure I see much difference vs. a mid-field other than ATC telling me to do it.

Maybe there, I know at Vegas they used to have me fly over the arrival end numbers.

 

[tinerj]

on the contrary, everyone I know is expecting it as it's a common and expected way to enter the pattern.

Same here (KUUV untowered Sullivan MO and KSAR untowered Sparta IL).

You have a great view forward, left and right, of all possible traffic.

 

[awquick]

FWIW I will tell you what a British pilot would do....overfly the airfield at TPA+500' or 1000'. maintain that altitude in a left turn to position upwind on the East side of the runway (they call that the"dead side"), descend to TPA, join the crosswind leg....all turns to the left (for a left pattern)

 

[Silvaire]

What the heck does" East" have to do with any of this?