Outlandish quote

murphey

murphey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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murphey
Even without the combined knowledge here, I know when I'm being taken advantage of. I want to remove the TKM 12D and replace with a Garmin GTR 205. All I need is the COM.

"For installation of the Garmin GTR 205 COM, wiring, rack installation, engineering, and panel modifications they are estimating about 90 hours so around $13,500.00."

OK, so the 205 is $2500, so they want 90 hours at $125/hr or so. I'm not complaining about the $125/hr, I'm annoyed that no one even bothered to look at the panel (I sent a photo) and see what's currently there and what needs to be done.

My response:
"Thanks for the estimate, but $13k+ without even looking at the current panel is quite candidly, unreasonable. There should be no panel mods needed, 90 hours to build a new harness, engineering, install the rack, and so on for the 205 is absurd. I realize I'm a tiny spam can, but thanks no. I really like the shop - they did a fantastic job when I was AOG with gear problems, but your avionics shop is far too expensive for me."

There are 2 other highly regarded avionics shops (and one other crappy shop) in Colorado that I've dealt with in the past, that each quoted me less than $6K. Guess who is going to get the business? Downside - because neither are nearby, I need to call friends to help with the transport since I'll use the shop in Greeley (GXY) since they did the GPS & HSI a couple years ago.
 
I had AATG at Greeley put a GFC500 in a 182 about 5 years ago with no regrets, price was reasonable
 
bnt83 said:
I had AATG at Greeley put a GFC500 in a 182 about 5 years ago with no regrets, price was reasonable
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That's who did the GPS & HSI. I just sent a note asking to schedule and I'll be up there on Monday with a checkbook for the deposit.
 
I'm actually in the process of DIY installing (with appropriate A&P supervision) a GTR205 and a GMA345. I've done enough avionics work to know generally what I'm doing, but I'm not a "pro." 90 hours is simply comical. I'll have way, way, way less than that in doing both the 205 and the 345. In fact, I won't be that much above 90 hours and I'm also installing a 3 screen engine monitor in a Duke (extremely complicated and time consuming). Quoting 90 hours is a "we don't want this work" quote.
 
asicer said:
I believe that's what's known as a "go away price". You didn't do something to make them mad, did you?
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No but they don't make much money on little spam cans. Had this with the other (the crappy) avionics shop. I had a radio for repair, it sat for months, until I walked in and asked why it was taking so long. Owner was very candid - they don't make money on me or others like me. So I took the radio and that was it. What they didn't get was the work for the 2 G5s, the 175, new audio panel, the ADSB-Out transponder and the (next week) new radio and cdi - about $35K total. You don't want my tiny business? Fine, you don't get the big business either.
 
bradg33 said:
I'm actually in the process of DIY installing (with appropriate A&P supervision) a GTR205 and a GMA345. I've done enough avionics work to know generally what I'm doing, but I'm not a "pro." 90 hours is simply comical. I'll have way, way, way less than that in doing both the 205 and the 345. In fact, I won't be that much above 90 hours and I'm also installing a 3 screen engine monitor in a Duke (extremely complicated and time consuming). Quoting 90 hours is a "we don't want this work" quote.
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Have you already purchased the GMA345? Less expensive and provides much more flexibility on who hears audio alerts that are streamed by BT
Thanks

Mark
 
Not even close and not even funny. Someone was having a bad day or just didn’t know what was going on.
 
I called a place in Western Colorado to have a pitot static check done. After a few phone calls I finally got someone who would talk to me, they told me that if I brought it in, that they would not be able to return it to service.
Clearly they did not want my business, I called them because the people I work for had spent a couple MILLION dollars there. Needless to say, I have never bothered to call them again.

I don't know why shops like this don't just say that they don't want the business or that they don't work on piston singles.
 
I have an online business and I'm semi-retired. I use to tell potential clients I was too busy when I didn't feel like taking the job for whatever reason. I was just being, mostly, honest. After a while it seemed that this potential clients did not call me for any work after this dismissal.

So, I started giving go-away prices when I didn't feel like doing a job. Like four times my normal fees. And I started getting a lot of these jobs, which surprised the hell out of me.

The go-away fee proposal has definitely improved my bottom line. And many of these clients come back for future work (where I continue to charge them 3x or 4x of normal fees). I have no problem justifying this to myself as I have a life time of knowledge that benefits my clients and their projects.

I also do this if I get any hint on the initial contact that the client might be a pita. My spidey-sense is always on alert for clients "looking for a deal", have a aggressive or demanding attitude, or they just talk too much (which to me symbolized some underlying element of BS).

My old partner used to do this all the time. It was as once he had a client used to the exorbitant fees that had no problem continuing to hire us at over-the-top fees.

This is an effective way of improving the bottom line for a business. Of course it is based on their being a lot available work for your industry so that you can afford to scare some clients away. I'm sure there are some competitive businesses where this would be a bad strategy.

I understand people get annoyed/aggravated by this strategy especially when it comes to aviation where everything is already stupid-expensive. However, I think it really helps some business' end up in the black at the end of the year. It certainly continues to boost my income.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I have an online business and I'm semi-retired. I use to tell potential clients I was too busy when I didn't feel like taking the job for whatever reason. I was just being, mostly, honest. After a while it seemed that this potential clients did not call me for any work after this dismissal.

So, I started giving go-away prices when I didn't feel like doing a job. Like four times my normal fees. And I started getting a lot of these jobs, which surprised the hell out of me.

The go-away fee proposal has definitely improved my bottom line. And many of these clients come back for future work (where I continue to charge them 3x or 4x of normal fees). I have no problem justifying this to myself as I have a life time of knowledge that benefits my clients and their projects.

I also do this if I get any hint on the initial contact that the client might be a pita. My spidey-sense is always on alert for clients "looking for a deal", have a aggressive or demanding attitude, or they just talk too much (which to me symbolized some underlying element of BS).

My old partner used to do this all the time. It was as once he had a client used to the exorbitant fees that had no problem continuing to hire us at over-the-top fees.

This is an effective way of improving the bottom line for a business. Of course it is based on their being a lot available work for your industry so that you can afford to scare some clients away. I'm sure there are some competitive businesses where this would be a bad strategy.

I understand people get annoyed/aggravated by this strategy especially when it comes to aviation where everything is already stupid-expensive. However, I think it really helps some business' end up in the black at the end of the year. It certainly continues to boost my income.
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I went to an avionics shop and they never sent me a quote yet spent an hour talking to me. I sent a few follow-ups and nothing. I’m more of a person to email or text rather than call so I’m sure that’s also on me as well but I’m fine with that.

If you don’t need the business, you raise your hourly rate. I wouldn’t overcharge the number of hours, that could be a bit scammy. He could say this job takes me 10 hours and I’m at $500 an hour (plus we mark up the avionics by this much) or whatever. Or that he has a minimum spend of 10k, what else do you want to throw in so this can be worthwhile to you? He can make a suggestion on what is time optimized for him as well.

I raise my hourly rate as people will pay it, you work at your pace and you provide good service then you build your business from a higher end market instead of people trying to get the best deal. But you also have a mix of business at different prices, maybe some longstanding clients at cheaper rates and newer business at higher rates. It helps you survive, you’re not getting rich, you’re just surviving.

90 hours for a com radio wiring harness is not adding up to me.
 
Lndwarrior said:
So, I started giving go-away prices when I didn't feel like doing a job.
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This^^^^. I did the same and when I was still being asked to work on aircraft, I started to say "no" and most of the ad hoc stuff went away. I think in the OPs case its the same but you'll find some people will pay it. And I think it will only get worse in the 3-5 years in certain locations as the older mechanics retire and the local shops start to work at capacity. Hopefully MOSAIC will provide some maintenance relief for some owners in general, but it won't solve all the issues that are coming down the pike now.
 
murphey said:
I want to remove the TKM 12D and replace with a Garmin GTR 205. All I need is the COM.
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Establish a good working relationship with your A&P/IA. Since all you need is the COM portion, this would most likely fall under a minor alteration. Get the right tools and supplies to build an adapter harness on the bench that will plug into the existing aircraft harness and into the 205. Then you can literally pull the old radio out, make any rack modifications you need to get the 205 in and you're good to go. All under the supervision of the A&P, of course.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Establish a good working relationship with your A&P/IA. Since all you need is the COM portion, this would most likely fall under a minor alteration. Get the right tools and supplies to build an adapter harness on the bench that will plug into the existing aircraft harness and into the 205. Then you can literally pull the old radio out, make any rack modifications you need to get the 205 in and you're good to go. All under the supervision of the A&P, of course.
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"this would most likely fall under a minor alteration". Please cite appropriate FAR.

I don't do hardware, only software. I am very willing to pay experts to do what they are expert in, just as I am very well paid to do what I do very well. I have zero interest building a harness. I've done things like that in the past (major computer company that no longer exists), not again. I do have an incredibly positive relationship with the shop. They installed the G5/AI with no problems. But the avionics shop did the G5/HSI & 175.

Having the avionics shop do the work guarantees any problems will be resolved by the shop.
 
Wagondriver said:
I called a place in Western Colorado to have a pitot static check done. After a few phone calls I finally got someone who would talk to me, they told me that if I brought it in, that they would not be able to return it to service.
Clearly they did not want my business, I called them because the people I work for had spent a couple MILLION dollars there. Needless to say, I have never bothered to call them again.

I don't know why shops like this don't just say that they don't want the business or that they don't work on piston singles.
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Was that Depot in Alamosa? If so, very strange because they've always been happy to work on all of GA, even the low end (like mine). I've changed to AATG at Greeley because it's closer and I can get back to Denver without any problems even in the winter. [little airplanes don't or shouldn't do mountains Nov-Mar due to weather issues]
 
murphey said:
Was that Depot in Alamosa? If so, very strange because they've always been happy to work on all of GA, even the low end (like mine). I've changed to AATG at Greeley because it's closer and I can get back to Denver without any problems even in the winter. [little airplanes don't or shouldn't do mountains Nov-Mar due to weather issues]
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No, it was West Star in GJT.

The avionics shop in Alamosa, unless there is more than one, I believe the owner was killed in his 182 at Big Creek Idaho this summer.
 
murphey said:
"this would most likely fall under a minor alteration". Please cite appropriate FAR.
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AC 43-210A gives you the path to substantiate a minor alteration. (https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_43-210a.pdf)

1736110430516.png

And then you can use (a bit outside its original intended scope but I have referenced it and got the FAA to bless that approach) AC 20-41A (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-41A.pdf), which provides a path to substitute TSO for TSO equipment without the need for flight checks, instead using a combination of functional tests, analyses, drawings and descriptive data.

1736110904015.png
 
The irony of that decision tree and the term "minor" being used, does not escape me in the least. State exhibit #6,900 in the case of why the goose is cooked, your Honor...:biggrin:
 
Wagondriver said:
No, it was West Star in GJT.

The avionics shop in Alamosa, unless there is more than one, I believe the owner was killed in his 182 at Big Creek Idaho this summer.
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West Star - uh huh....GLT has been a problem for almost a decade. West Star too. They really don't want any GA if at all possible. Back in 2013 the FBI raided the airport - seems like Tippetts (mgr) and the tenant/hangar assoc president were in cahoots. I sat thru the 2+ hour zoom that the city council had, talking about the problems. Tippetts tried to get GA off the field and give West Star sole control of as much as possible. If you've taken a look at the businesses at the field - slim. Really slim. He even tried to kick 2 non-profits out of a tiny office - civil air patrol & the amateur radio club. What he didn't realize - the CAP group & the radio club were not just a part but also a critical component of the State of Colorado emergency program on the Western Slope. But he still made it really difficult and unpleasant for the groups to remain there. Fortunately, they outlasted him.

A few years later, the FBI dropped the charges. Unfortunately, as much as the new mgrs (there have been 2 or 3) tried, it's still avoided when possible by GA. Didn't help when it had an airshow a few years ago, no one was allowed to fly in - no parking allowed (thank you West Star). They didn't even run buses from the outlying airports. Hence attendance was not the greatest.
 
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