Oroville Stall/Spin Crash 2 June 2022

Daleandee

Daleandee

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Dale Andee
Not sure if this has been posted:

Two instructors perished ... quite sad.

 
There’s a whole slew of info on this one coming out. Apparently a few days before the crash the plane had an engine out on climb out where the pilot landed it back on the runway. The left seat pilot was a 1/4th owner of the plane and was trying to trouble shoot it. No joke he asked someone to stand at the end of the runway and film the plane so his mechanic could see what it does and when it does it (meaning the engine failing). Crazy right? So we probably will see some kind of video of this crash eventually. I have a friend that trained with the CFI in the left seat. They did two lessons and my buddy decided to get another CFI as this one was really unorthodox. Kind of a cowboy.


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Peter Anderson said:
There’s a whole slew of info on this one coming out. Apparently a few days before the crash the plane had an engine out on climb out where the pilot landed it back on the runway. The left seat pilot was a 1/4th owner of the plane and was trying to trouble shoot it. No joke he asked someone to stand at the end of the runway and film the plane so his mechanic could see what it does and when it does it (meaning the engine failing). Crazy right? So we probably will see some kind of video of this crash eventually. I have a friend that trained with the CFI in the left seat. They did two lessons and my buddy decided to get another CFI as this one was really unorthodox. Kind of a cowboy.


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He does mention that there is a video of this crash. There is also a mention of the fact that when two instructors are in a plane together it can cause complacency (4:40). Hard to fathom what's being said as the reason for this crash to actually be true ...
 
Capngrog said:
Taking off with a known sick engine, to trouble shoot the engine problem in the air, is a concept that just plumb evades me.
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And yet we occasionally see a post from someone encountering engine issues every time they fly. They ask us what it might be. The wiser ones among us advise them to stop flying it and find a competent mechanic. Some others, not so wise, make suggestions on what to try on the next flight.
 
Dan Thomas said:
And yet we occasionally see a post from someone encountering engine issues every time they fly. They ask us what it might be. The wiser ones among us advise them to stop flying it and find a competent mechanic. Some others, not so wise, make suggestions on what to try on the next flight.
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I want my airplane to run at least as good as the vehicle I drove to the airport. :D
 
Capngrog said:
Taking off with a known sick engine, to trouble shoot the engine problem in the air, is a concept that just plumb evades me.
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And guess what, just today I was in a rented plane and during the runup the engine was incredibly rough on the left magneto. I went back and an instructor told me he would have a ride to fix the issue. Believe it or not, he confirmed the issue with the left magneto and took off with another instructor to troubleshoot it in the air. They came back after a pattern, declaring the airplane grounded. Very clever way of reaching that conclusion.
 
It doesn't seem all that "clever" to me.

How was the "incredibly rough" running engine first noticed? On the GROUND RUN UP, which apparently could be duplicated on the ground. As I dimly recall from my GA aviating days, once an engine problem was detected, I was taught that, if in the air, to get 'er on the ground as soon practicable; however, if detected on the ground, taxi back to the ramp and let the A&P guys sort it out. I was taught to never take off with a known engine problem ... unless being chased by cannibals or dinosaurs or sumthin'.

Taking off with known engine problems didn't work out too well for the Collings Foundation B-17 flight at Bradley field ... did it?
 
P.S. Sifossifoco;

It sounds to me you did the "clever" thing by taxiing back to the ramp and turning the problem over to the instructor.
 
Capngrog said:
I was taught to never take off with a known engine problem
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Sometimes you have to. I had a problem with an intermittently misfiring engine, it only happened at cruise power or above and only after 15 minutes or so of flying. I suspected an ignition issue (single ignition on this engine) and it seemed to be temperature related, so I flew it with a temperature probe taped to the side of the magneto. I took off with a cool engine, climbed and circled above the airport until it happened, sure enough, it consistently happened when the mag temperature reached a certain point. Turned out to be a bad coil.
 
Rein Hart said:
If true, that is 100% ridiculous.
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Dana said:
Sometimes you have to. I had a problem with an intermittently misfiring engine, it only happened at cruise power or above and only after 15 minutes or so of flying. I suspected an ignition issue (single ignition on this engine) and it seemed to be temperature related, so I flew it with a temperature probe taped to the side of the magneto. I took off with a cool engine, climbed and circled above the airport until it happened, sure enough, it consistently happened when the mag temperature reached a certain point. Turned out to be a bad coil.
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Or, you can do as we used to do: replace the mags and see if it made any difference.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Or, you can do as we used to do: replace the mags and see if it made any difference.
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Or take the mag to someone that overhauls them and has a test stand, and ask them to run it and heat it with a heat gun and see if, and at what temp, it starts misfiring. I've done that with suspect sparkplugs.
 
I think we (me included) are missing a key point in this crash sequence: Loss of control. It makes me wonder what these "Instructors" taught their students to do if an engine fails on take off. No matter what the options may be, the most important thing is to maintain control of the aircraft by establishing and maintaining sufficient airspeed. These guys apparently did not do that. Two instructors aboard, even though one is checking the other out in the aircraft (who's PIC?), means that CRM becomes very important (my opinion). "Turn back!" "No, straight ahead!" "Airspeed!". Believe me, I'm not making light of the situation, I'm just trying to understand why this happened, when they probably would have survived a straight ahead, controlled descent into terrain.

By the way, two instructors taking off with a known ailing engine makes me think that they would have done a pre-takeoff brief on engine failure scenarios. They would have, wouldn't they?
 
Capngrog said:
By the way, two instructors taking off with a known ailing engine makes me think that they would have done a pre-takeoff brief on engine failure scenarios. They would have, wouldn't they?
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The whole thing has many more questions than answers. It appears there were a few places to set it down even if that meant landing it in the trees. Seems that preventing a stall spin should have been the absolute objective and part of the plan from the ill-conceived idea to take off in an ailing plane to begin with.

I do not mean to speak ill of the dearly departed but this crash can't help but make me question the quality of instructors that are being sent out to train students these days.
 
Capngrog said:
I think we (me included) are missing a key point in this crash sequence: Loss of control. It makes me wonder what these "Instructors" taught their students to do if an engine fails on take off. No matter what the options may be, the most important thing is to maintain control of the aircraft by establishing and maintaining sufficient airspeed. These guys apparently did not do that. Two instructors aboard, even though one is checking the other out in the aircraft (who's PIC?), means that CRM becomes very important (my opinion). "Turn back!" "No, straight ahead!" "Airspeed!". Believe me, I'm not making light of the situation, I'm just trying to understand why this happened, when they probably would have survived a straight ahead, controlled descent into terrain.

By the way, two instructors taking off with a known ailing engine makes me think that they would have done a pre-takeoff brief on engine failure scenarios. They would have, wouldn't they?
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I know this airport very well. There is a gigantic clay pit that ohv vehicles uses to wheel as well as a shooting range just off to the right side. A gentle bank in glide would have them in good shape.
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Also in a situation where your engine might decide to crap the bed at any moment you would think they would use the long runway. Winds were right in the middle of 13 and 2.


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My Warrior is down for something like this…seemed to have a fouled plug…cleaned and took it on a short flight and it was okay…the problem came back on a slightly longer flight…both mags pulled and rebuilt and back on tomorrow along with new plugs…diagnostic in the air by a CFI is just stupid in a single engine piston…and I spent almost 20 years as an Army Maintenance Test Pilot…
 
Warlock said:
My Warrior is down for something like this…seemed to have a fouled plug…cleaned and took it on a short flight and it was okay…the problem came back on a slightly longer flight…both mags pulled and rebuilt and back on tomorrow along with new plugs…diagnostic in the air by a CFI is just stupid in a single engine piston…and I spent almost 20 years as an Army Maintenance Test Pilot…
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If you did maintenance test flights in helicopters that is really nuts.
 
Daleandee said:
Altitude is your friend ...
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Yeah, I used to get that from a glider student until we had to initiate a 360-degree turn at less than 200 feet over the end of the runway because we were too high to land. Amazing how stupid a young instructor can be. :rolleyes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yeah, I used to get that from a glider student until we had to initiate a 360-degree turn at less than 200 feet over the end of the runway because we were too high to land. Amazing how stupid a young instructor can be. :rolleyes:
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True. When the engine quits I like altitude. Had an engine quit on take-off many years ago. Didn't have a lot of altitude or runway so a hard slip put it in a field at the end of the airport property. In that situation I can burn altitude but had no way to gain it ...
 
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Daleandee said:
Had an engine quit on take-off many years ago. Didn't have a lot of altitude or runway so a hard slip put it in a field at at the end of the airport property.
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Amazing the speed with which you can make those critical adjustments once you actually decide to land off-airport, isn’t it?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Amazing the speed with which you can make those critical adjustments once you actually decide to land off-airport, isn’t it?
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Yes sir. Wasn't a lot of time or choices to be made. My instructor taught me that one of the hardest things I would ever do is look at the ground rushing up and push the stick forward.
 
Daleandee said:
Altitude is your friend ...
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Granted. But the good thing with rotorcraft is that airspeed can negate the lack of altitude if you lose an engine. In general, if you keep your airspeed within the height/velocity clear zone during takeoff, the odds of a successful auto remain high regardless of altutide. Airplanes are a bit lacking in that department hence the "impossible turn" reference.
 
Bell206 said:
Granted. But the good thing with rotorcraft is that airspeed can negate the lack of altitude if you lose an engine. In general, if you keep your airspeed within the height/velocity clear zone during takeoff, the odds of a successful auto remain high regardless of altutide. Airplanes are a bit lacking in that department hence the "impossible turn" reference.
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I understand this as I have a good friend that is a helicopter pilot. He would complain when flying with the low and slow guys on the way to a fly-in that they needed to climb up higher or fly faster. I don't have much time in copters and I don't really care for them. They are fun enough just not my cup of tea as they say.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s hard to do what you know is right when the view out the windshield is that scary.
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I recently had a friend that was injured in a plane crash. The investigation is still underway but I suspect that the fault was that he stalled and spun the plane on take-off in some winds that were more than he was expecting. We train ourselves to pickup a dropped wing with the rudder but when it happens suddenly our normal reaction comes rushing in and we pull the stick and that drops the aileron down and exacerbates the problem. The startle factor is very real.
 
Daleandee said:
Had an engine quit on take-off many years ago. Didn't have a lot of altitude or runway so a hard slip put it in a field at at the end of the airport property. In that situation I can burn altitude but had no way to gain it ...
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BTDT, hard slip to a very fast wheel landing. It's one reason I like planes with a powerful rudder, "we don't need no stinkin' flaps!"
 
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