Oops at KAPA today

denverpilot

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
Friend who shoots photos of aircraft at KAPA just about every weekend caught this today.

4b94241c-729c-d098.jpg


Ouch. He kindly blurred out the N-number.

He also caught me departing for KPUB...

4b94241c-72e8-288c.jpg
 
One more of us departing...

4b94241c-74a4-cc9d.jpg


Yeah. I know. The belly needs a bath.
 
Hmmm. Looks like that Tiger dragged a wing tip due to a gust or crosswind that he wasn't expecting or dealing with well. Not Monday morning quaterbacking, though. Well maybe a little. :wink2: Plus looks like he got into a bit of a porpoise as the nosewheel is on the ground before the mains in one shot. He may have been a little hot on final also, which extends your time low and slow, above the runway and more vulnerable to gusts and crosswinds. But, what do I know. :)

Wonder how much damage? Probably not much, but still needs to be addressed.
 
Does your friend post his pics anywhere? I'd like to check them out. And you sure do fly a lot. Business?
 
Anthony said:
Hmmm. Looks like that Tiger dragged a wing tip due to a gust or crosswind that he wasn't expecting or dealing with well. Not Monday morning quaterbacking, though. Well maybe a little. :wink2: Plus looks like he got into a bit of a porpoise as the nosewheel is on the ground before the mains in one shot. He may have been a little hot on final also, which extends your time low and slow, above the runway and more vulnerable to gusts and crosswinds. But, what do I know. :)

Wonder how much damage? Probably not much, but still needs to be addressed.
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It'll buff right out, just a scratch!! :wink2:
 
Just more evidence why nobody with a lick of sense will fly those damn things.:yikes::wink2:

Anthony said:
Hmmm. Looks like that Tiger dragged a wing tip due to a gust or crosswind that he wasn't expecting or dealing with well. Not Monday morning quaterbacking, though. Well maybe a little. :wink2: Plus looks like he got into a bit of a porpoise as the nosewheel is on the ground before the mains in one shot. He may have been a little hot on final also, which extends your time low and slow, above the runway and more vulnerable to gusts and crosswinds. But, what do I know. :)

Wonder how much damage? Probably not much, but still needs to be addressed.
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wabower said:
Just more evidence why nobody with a lick of sense will fly those damn things.:yikes::wink2:
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Never said I had any "sense". Owning a plane and "sense", in general, do not co-habitate. :D
 
Preaching to the choir, Bro, preaching to the choir.

Anthony said:
Never said I had any "sense". Owning a plane and "sense", in general, do not co-habitate. :D
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pilotod said:
Does your friend post his pics anywhere? I'd like to check them out. And you sure do fly a lot. Business?
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Sidebar: And we have a new member of the Colorado POA!!!!
 
Henning said:
So what did the Tiger pilot do instinctively and incorrectly?
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Dunno. Wasn't in the cockpit. I would suspect a better question would be what DIDN'T he do.

Perhaps unrelated to this incident, but a good practice is speed control on final, and positive, immediate correction for gusts/crosswinds. However, I don't know what the conditions were, nor how the plane was being flown in this instance so this is more of a general statement.
 
Anthony said:
Dunno. Wasn't in the cockpit. I would suspect a better question would be what DIDN'T he do.

Perhaps unrelated to this incident, but a good practice is speed control on final, and positive, immediate correction for gusts/crosswinds. However, I don't know what the conditions were, nor how the plane was being flown in this instance so this is more of a general statement.
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You don't need to be in the cockpit, the pictures tell everything.
 
Henning said:
You don't need to be in the cockpit, the pictures tell everything.
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Just trying to keep an open mind. I pretty much told you what I thought happened in the other posts.
 
Henning said:
So what did the Tiger pilot do instinctively and incorrectly?
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Just a guess - we DON'T know without the pilot telling us for themselves - but my first thought was he or she tried to line up with the centerline using the yoke instead of the rudder.
 
HArd to say what went down, but by the time lapse, one could say it looks like a pretty solid high sinking flare with bank induced. The inertia of the wing once the right main makes contact further pivots the wing into contact with the ground.

Had there had not been a high sink rate, he/she would have been unlikely to scrape, even accounting for untimely crosswind control input. Alternatively he/she could have opted to roll the wings out, accepted the firm touchdown bounce, giving up runway heading for the sake of the gear and and sent themselves around on the bounce n go. If there was no high sink on that time lapse, then the dude was seriously overbanking as if to try to reposition the aircraft laterally on the runway during the flare. That's just pointless. Judging by the fact other aircraft are departing uneventfully I'd say the demonstrated X-wind component wasn't being challenged that day for single piston prop jobs.

The dude was trying to square the corner after a high flare with no energy. Good news is the thing don't look bent. Live to fly another day I guess. :)

--break break--

What's crazy is that out of all pictures, I noticed the airport sign on the 182 picture. "Voted Best Airport on the US for Ice and Snow Control for the 11th time". Nice plug. :D What is this ice and snow y'all are voting yourself on, 11 times no less? Us southern flatland pilots never heard of such things lol. Now, voted best BBQ on property would be a nice banner to have on an airport :D
 
flightwriter said:
Just a guess - we DON'T know without the pilot telling us for themselves - but my first thought was he or she tried to line up with the centerline using the yoke instead of the rudder.
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Damned close, he picked up the wing at slow speed with the aileron instead of the rudder. His feet could have been on the floor for all the rudder moved.

There is a real reason this is bad. When you are slow you already have a low AoA margin to stall. When you roll in aileron to pick up the wing you increase AoA even more and risk stalling the down wing into the ground. When you stomp the rudder however you are actually accelerating that down wingtip away from stall. To get to the very limits of ability it actually requires flying reverse command ailerons with normal command rudder leading, and that's not something I'd recommend to try to milk another knot or two out of an emergency lol. The best way to handle it is that once you are below the power curve (or any time you're nose up really) to use rudder as primary for wing leveling.
 
how where the winds down at APA yesterday? We had another blustery weekend up near KBJC again ... getting really tired of the winds.
 
gkainz said:
how where the winds down at APA yesterday? We had another blustery weekend up near KBJC again ... getting really tired of the winds.
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Answered my own question ... not a bad looking day down there yesterday!

PHP: 
Recent KAPA METAR history
Observation 	Flight
Rules 	Wind 	Cloud Cover 	Visibility 	Temp 	Dew Point 	Rel.
Humid. 	Pressure 	Other
Date 	Time 	Dir. 	Speed 	Type 	Height (ft) 	(sm) 	C 	F 	C 	F
04-Mar 	11:53PM 	VFR 	200° 	3kts 	Clear 		10 	1° 	33° 	-8° 	17° 	51% 	30.14 	
04-Mar 	10:53PM 	VFR 	140° 	5kts 	Clear 		10 	3° 	37° 	-8° 	17° 	46% 	30.16 	
04-Mar 	09:53PM 	VFR 	190° 	8kts 	Clear 		10 	3° 	37° 	-8° 	17° 	44% 	30.17 	
04-Mar 	08:53PM 	VFR 	180° 	7kts 	Clear 		10 	2° 	35° 	-8° 	17° 	48% 	30.16 	
04-Mar 	07:53PM 	VFR 	260° 	7kts 	Clear 		10 	7° 	44° 	-10° 	14° 	29% 	30.16 	
04-Mar 	06:53PM 	VFR 	280° 	6kts 	Clear 		10 	10° 	50° 	-12° 	10° 	20% 	30.15 	
04-Mar 	05:53PM 	VFR 	310° 	4kts 	Clear 		10 	11° 	51° 	-12° 	10° 	19% 	30.14 	
04-Mar 	04:53PM 	VFR 	290° 	8kts 	Clear 		10 	14° 	57° 	-12° 	10° 	15% 	30.13 	
04-Mar 	03:53PM 	VFR 	310° 	10kts 	Clear 		10 	15° 	59° 	-12° 	10° 	15% 	30.12 	
04-Mar 	02:53PM 	VFR 	300° 	9kts 	Clear 		10 	16° 	60° 	-12° 	10° 	14% 	30.12 	
04-Mar 	01:53PM 	VFR 	280° 	11kts 	Clear 		10 	14° 	57° 	-11° 	12° 	16% 	30.11 	
04-Mar 	12:53PM 	VFR 	310° 	14kts 	Few 	10000 	10 	14° 	57° 	-11° 	12° 	17% 	30.13 	
04-Mar 	11:53AM 	VFR 	300° 	18kts 	Scattered 	10000 	10 	13° 	55° 	-11° 	12° 	18% 	30.14 	
04-Mar 	10:53AM 	VFR 	280° 	13kts 	Scattered 	12000 	10 	12° 	53° 	-10° 	14° 	21% 	30.14

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KAPA/weather
 
pilotod said:
Does your friend post his pics anywhere? I'd like to check them out. And you sure do fly a lot. Business?
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Someone posted the link to his Flickr. He (Paul) and John Little and others are always shooting at KAPA. Great folks. Also check out the Colorado Aviation Photography group on Facebook.

As far as flying goes for me, just for fun...
 
dmccormack said:
The real answer to this problem is to only fly at night, when strangers aren't taking embarrassing pictures...

:)
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And here I thought that putting wear strips on the wingtips would solve any problem...you're absolutely right, fly at night and no wear strips would be needed. Genius!

:D
 
Henning said:
You don't need to be in the cockpit, the pictures tell everything.
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You can definitely see where he has a whole lot of aileron in.

As for me, I can't say i wouldn't instinctively add a bunch of aileron if I stalled it 5 feet over the runway. I don't think i would, i broke that habit at altitude awhile ago and I practice stalls and spins for fun somewhat regularly.

I have flared high on accident (happens sometimes to me at night and found myself 3-4 feet over the runway, stall horn going off and ok.. waiting for the ground... ok no ground yet, stall horn still going off...

proper response there is to hold your nose up, landing attitude, add in a bit of power (maybe 1300 rpm, who knows I don't look at that thing) and keep the plane level and straight with rudder and just hold that good nose-up landing attitude till it settles to the ground. A bit firm, but mains first... no stall and no bounce.
 
Last edited:
Paul saw the post here and mentioned the four-panel might not show the whole story, so here's more that he sent me.

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He's probably lurking here now. ;)
 
Here's what he sent in e-mail, text-wise...

"4 pictures really don’t show the entire story of what happened…
Here is the entire sequence.

I started taking pictures because the aircraft was low and looked like it would touch down before the numbers.
There was a very large gust of wind that was going on at the time. The building on the West side blocked it, but as he came out of the “wind shadow” it pushed his left wing up hard.
He then bounced a bit. I didn’t hear any sound or anything, but I am on the West side of the field by 35R."
 
Looks like he let his energy get a might low... That nose is way up way high like he's an airline pilot, I've got $2 says the guy is an airline pilot lol.
 
In the photo on the bottom row, the one on the very far left, it sure looks like the NOSEWHEEL is touching, and one of the mains, but not the other main? Isn’t that bad?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
In the photo on the bottom row, the one on the very far left, it sure looks like the NOSEWHEEL is touching, and one of the mains, but not the other main? Isn’t that bad?
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Not good but not particularly bad. Basically he stalled and dropped it in from 3' or so and that just the way it bounced on the gear.
 
denverpilot said:
Here's what he sent in e-mail, text-wise...

"4 pictures really don’t show the entire story of what happened…
Here is the entire sequence.

I started taking pictures because the aircraft was low and looked like it would touch down before the numbers.
There was a very large gust of wind that was going on at the time. The building on the West side blocked it, but as he came out of the “wind shadow” it pushed his left wing up hard.
He then bounced a bit. I didn’t hear any sound or anything, but I am on the West side of the field by 35R."
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Gusty x-winds can lead to unintended low altitude whifferdils...

There's a nasty wind that hangs out at the south end of the field where Sheble has their operation in Arizona. If'n people want pictures of whifferdils, that'd be the place to go. I went to the aileron stops on the 'kota trying to keep it level. Of course I wasn't in the flare when it happened either.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Now, voted best BBQ on property would be a nice banner to have on an airport :D
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I might be an Ohio boy, but KHII undeniably wins that honor. Not too many lunches require a 2-hour nap in the pilot lounge afterwards...:yesnod:
 
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