OLD IFR GPS ?? I think it may be worth it..

Indiana_Pilot

Indiana_Pilot

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I am looking to upgrade my older MK-12 NAV/COM to some sort of approach capable GPS NAV/COM.

Yes.. I would love a Garmin 430W... yes I would love LPV approaches.. but my checkbook does not..

If we do not figure install costs and only look at the equipment and it's cost.. what would be wrong with me:

- Buying a Garmin 300XL with tray, antenna ect.. for a little over $2,000
- Buy something like a MD40 CDI that has the annunciator built in. or an GPS capable CDI and install separate annunciator. (new $2400)

This would give me LNAV approaches at airports that no longer have ILS/LOC/VOR approaches. I know it doesn't get me as low as LPV but I don't think it's worth the money to go lower.. most gets me down to 600' so I think I would be ok for most places...

Has anyone else gone through this?


Option 1 300XL + MD40 for $4500 ish
Option 2 430W + new CDI for $7500 ish

That's 3k I could use for something else..
 
Why not look at a 430 non WAAS? If you aren't interested in LPV then you really don't need the WAAS. If you were willing to forgo the nav/com aspect that opens up a lot of cheaper TSO IFR GPS units. If you do require the NAV/COM aspect you might as well bite the bullet and get a 430W or a used GTN650. I wouldn't bother penny pinching to save a few grand, if we were talking 5+ then yea I would consider it.
 
I know I keep telling myself that but I see older 300XL and kln94b sitting around 2k... I need COM built in as I am taking out my MK12 NAV/COM.. I would be happy with a 430 non WAAS if I can actually find one
 
FWIW I've had a GNC250XL puke right after they stopped fixing them so may opinion is skewed a bit but there is no way in hell I'd invest in rack, wiring, antenna installation labor that ultimately is a dead end. At least with a 4xx/5xx series radios you have a slightly easier path upward like the Avidyne IFD or just upgrading a non-W garmin to a W.

Used GI106A indicator pricing should be depressed as the new Garmin G5 HSIs start going in since any existing indicator is supposed to be removed when those are installed.
 
Does anyone know if the older KNI 520 CDI's are all GPS capable? Seems like the cheapest way to go if I do go with a 430 non WAAS
 
How handy are you? If you're paying a shop to do the work, you're probably wasting your money on an older unit. If you're doing the work yourself with an A&P/IA supervising, that's a different animal entirely.

Also, if you're spending $4,500 to buy an old IFR GPS/COM, you're doing it very, very wrong. If you watch eBay and the classified sections of the various forums, you should be able to get into a unit for under $2k. I recently installed an Apollo GX50 (IFR approach approved GPS) and my total costs, including the unit, indicator, new altitude encoder, etc., were right around $2k. I did the install myself with my A&P/IA supervising and facilitating the field approval for the IFR install. At $2-3k all-in, it's worth installing an older unit (IMHO). At $5k, it's a waste of money vs a 430.

Also bear in mind that installing a unit with a COM significantly complicates the installation. A stand-alone IFR GPS that only interfaces with a dedicated CDI is very simple to install. I did it in probably 5-6 hours, including building the harness, and I had no experience. Add a COM into the mix, and now you have to interface with the audio panel, extra antennas, etc. That will add a lot of labor to do it right.

A non-WAAS 430 is also mistake, IMHO. The price delta between the two used units is less than what it will cost you to later upgrade a non-WAAS 430 to WAAS. Penny wise, pound foolish.
 
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I can tell you from experience the $7,500 430W is like finding Moby Dick. Throw in some installation costs...

Now then, 430 non-waas come around in the $4k range fairly reliably. Thank the 2020 mandate and people wanting to get 650 or 750 because of support and all the other justifications they spew here.

So... I'd go 430 before I'd go 300XL (have flown with both) or I'd splurge to 430W.
 
Ravioli said:
I can tell you from experience the $7,500 430W is like finding Moby Dick. Throw in some installation costs...

Now then, 430 non-waas come around in the $4k range fairly reliably. Thank the 2020 mandate and people wanting to get 650 or 750 because of support and all the other justifications they spew here.

So... I'd go 430 before I'd go 300XL (have flown with both) or I'd splurge to 430W.
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You can get a 430W all day in the low $6k range. An indicator is another $1.2-1.5k (unless you find a smoking deal). Depending on the airplane, may also need a remote annunciator, which adds another $600-750. Labor will be probably $3-4k.

Keep in mind that the regular non-WAAS 430 isn't an STC'd unit; it requires a field approval to be IFR legal. While that's not a huge deal, it takes time and many larger shops don't want to deal with the hassle.
 
I am going to do the install myself :) with proper approval and guidance of course


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Seems like I need to find an awesome package deal on an older unit..


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Indiana_Pilot said:
Seems like I need to find an awesome package deal on an older unit..


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A little patience and eBay sleuthing will pay off. Took me a few weeks to find my deal, which came with the MD40-65L indicator/annunciator.

Also, keep a keen eye out for a Garmin GPS400W. I've seen those sell for as little as $2500. I regret not getting one of those myself. Would have cost more than double what my current GPS did all-in, but would have added a lot more capability.
 
bradg33 said:
A little patience and eBay sleuthing will pay off. Took me a few weeks to find my deal, which came with the MD40-65L indicator/annunciator.

Also, keep a keen eye out for a Garmin GPS400W. I've seen those sell for as little as $2500. I regret not getting one of those myself. Would have cost more than double what my current GPS did all-in, but would have added a lot more capability.
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Will the 65L work with pretty much any GPS?


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What indicator did you go with?


bradg33 said:
How handy are you? If you're paying a shop to do the work, you're probably wasting your money on an older unit. If you're doing the work yourself with an A&P/IA supervising, that's a different animal entirely.

Also, if you're spending $4,500 to buy an old IFR GPS/COM, you're doing it very, very wrong. If you watch eBay and the classified sections of the various forums, you should be able to get into a unit for under $2k. I recently installed an Apollo GX50 (IFR approach approved GPS) and my total costs, including the unit, indicator, new altitude encoder, etc., were right around $2k. I did the install myself with my A&P/IA supervising and facilitating the field approval for the IFR install. At $2-3k all-in, it's worth installing an older unit (IMHO). At $5k, it's a waste of money vs a 430.

Also bear in mind that installing a unit with a COM significantly complicates the installation. A stand-alone IFR GPS that only interfaces with a dedicated CDI is very simple to install. I did it in probably 5-6 hours, including building the harness, and I had no experience. Add a COM into the mix, and now you have to interface with the audio panel, extra antennas, etc. That will add a lot of labor to do it right.

A non-WAAS 430 is also mistake, IMHO. The price delta between the two used units is less than what it will cost you to later upgrade a non-WAAS 430 to WAAS. Penny wise, pound foolish.
Click to expand...
 
Indiana_Pilot said:
Will the 65L work with pretty much any GPS?


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Click to expand...

The MD40-65L works only with the Apollo GX-series. Midcontinent also makes indicators compatible with Garmin and King units, but you have to do a little digging to track down the proper model numbers. The 65L is a indicator/annunciator combo that's internally lit (the "L").
 
I love the GNS boxes, I fly behind them in my plane and in the work plane, that said if the 300XL fits your missions and budget better, sounds like a easy choice.
 
I would focus on the Garmin units and walk away from the King ones. They no longer support the king units while Garmin still supports the 300XL and other older units that cost about the same as the King ones.
 
Grum.Man said:
I would focus on the Garmin units and walk away from the King ones. They no longer support the king units while Garmin still supports the 300XL and other older units that cost about the same as the King ones.
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From a "support" perspective, I look at these older units are throw-away boxes. If the GPS fails, you don't send it to Garmin or King for repair; you buy another one off eBay and slide it in. Just my perspective, as a guy who owns an unsupported GX50.
 
bradg33 said:
From a "support" perspective, I look at these older units are throw-away boxes. If the GPS fails, you don't send it to Garmin or King for repair; you buy another one off eBay and slide it in. Just my perspective, as a guy who owns an unsupported GX50.
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Yea Never mind my remark, I thought Garmin was still repairing the 300XL but I see they stopped in 2015.
 
Even the 430/530 is a gamble. The supply of screens for them is just about gone. It will be in the same boat as the gx60 very soon.
 
Last summer I installed, under supervision from my IA, a Apollo GX60 which has com. I also installed the MD-40 indicator and an Icarus serializer. I pulled out a kx155 and put the GX60 in its place and wired it up to my FS-450 as well. All in right around $2k. The good...I am /G and can shoot approaches that I couldn't before, and cost. The bad...Not WAAS, if the screen dies im dead in the water, and cant shoot LPV approaches. Im happy and so is my wallet and this set up gives me more utility than I had previously so its a bonus. Would I like a Used 430w..sure but not for a third of the price I bought my plane for. And my plane is in the shop right now getting the Stratus ESG installed so Im a happy camper and my plane will serve me well and has been for many more years.
 
I got a GNC300XL and MD41-444 that I just pulled from my plane for a GTN. The MD41-444 is 14 volt annunciation control unit that was installed with the GNC300XL. I have tray and antenna. No wiring. No yellow tag. I'll let both go for a very good price.

Text me at 580-five nine five-0349, I'll send back pictures.
 
A rental plane I've been flying recently got a GNC 300XL installed, and the user interface seems very dated. For example, in order to change the standby com frequency, you first have to hit the CRSR button, and then when you're done changing the frequency, you have to hit it twice more to get out of CRSR mode.
 
Given the choice and cost delta between the GX60 (with COM) and the 300XL I'm thinking 300XL.. are the annunciator required even if it's in my center stack? If so I'll go with the MD40 242 CDI


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I bit the bullet and bought a 300XL off of eBay.. I am on the hunt for the cheapest CDI and annunciator now.. I am looking for the MD40 242 used now but they are hard to find used. If I go with a cheaper CDI, I will need to use an annunciator even though the 300XL will be just to the right of my vision in the center stack?
 
There's the rule of diminishing returns. My neighbor was putting an antiquated King IFR GPS in his panel on the guise it was costing much less to do it.
He's now been grounded a month (well not really, he has a second plane). It would have been better to just start with the bottom of the line of something more current.
 
flyingron said:
There's the rule of diminishing returns. My neighbor was putting an antiquated King IFR GPS in his panel on the guise it was costing much less to do it.
He's now been grounded a month (well not really, he has a second plane). It would have been better to just start with the bottom of the line of something more current.
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I kept on thinking that too but having the 300XL that will replace my old MK12 and also give me LNAV for a 1/3 the cost... seems decent to me.. maybe I will regret it but I'm pretty excited about it.. at least I think I am :)


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Indiana_Pilot said:
I bit the bullet and bought a 300XL off of eBay.. I am on the hunt for the cheapest CDI and annunciator now.. I am looking for the MD40 242 used now but they are hard to find used. If I go with a cheaper CDI, I will need to use an annunciator even though the 300XL will be just to the right of my vision in the center stack?
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You need to consult the installation manual and AC 20-138D. Those are going to be your guides for installation, they'll tell you what needs to be done.
 
What class would u put the klm94 gps I have one my screen is going out I really like do I replace it or get something else
 
I just spoke to the Mid Continent guys... and after reading more and thinking.. it seems that I can use the MD41-444 annunciator coupled with my old Narco CDI.. the annunciator has a switch relay built in that will drive the older CDI.. so I think my setup will be like this.. Garmin 300XL - MD41-444 annunciator - and use my old Narco VOA-8 CDI. Sound legit?
 
I have a King KLN90B. It works fine for enroute. It also works for LNAV approaches (the GPS RNAV approaches without the glideslope). Database and repair are supported by King. One thing to realize, you need an OBS head (VOR head) to be certified IFR for all units. So there is that as well. If you have a head that you can connect it to or use the less expensive little one (like I have), it will save on money. If you have a VOR/GS then you can do the ILS approaches down to the 200' or so minimums. There are lots of ILS approaches. Whats nice is to put the ILS course in the GPS box and you have the distance and course as a backup to the VOR indicator. GPS's work great for holds too using the "OBS" function.

The only functions a non-WAAS is missing is glideslope RNAV approaches and the ability to provide WAAS to ADSB transponder (and possibly the ELT as well as some others). Displaying traffic and weather is usually not possible either. With a 20K needed to update my non-WAAS to a modern WAAS unit with ADSB. Well, Im waiting. Ill probably have to do it eventually though.
 
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I think I settled on the KI 202 CDI. It matches my KI209 nicely.. now I need to decide if I want to move my KX155 and KI209 and put the 300XL and 202 on top.. in thinking I will since it will be my main radio and used for LNAV approaches the most.


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Anyone have a MD41 444. They would like to part with? :)


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I have no idea what install costs would be, but I always said if I were starting from scratch, I'd go with something more modern. If the install prices are considerably less, then maybe something more dated would make sense.
 
I get why the OP went with an older unit as it fits his needs and budget. I may have saved another year and splurged on a Garmin 430 non WAAS if I was already ADS-B equipped or bit the bullet and gone full WAAS if I still wasn't ADS-B equipped. At least then, when finances allowed you could upgrade to an IFD440 and it would be a slide in replacement.
 
rbridges said:
I have no idea what install costs would be, but I always said if I were starting from scratch, I'd go with something more modern. If the install prices are considerably less, then maybe something more dated would make sense.
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IMHO, these older units really only make sense to install if you're doing the work yourself with an A&P/IA supervising. If you're paying an avionics shop to do it, you're better off spending a little more on the equipment as the labor is going to be the same (or more if you're installing equipment that needs field approval for IFR).
 
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